Sworn Statement of Andrea J Sprecher
| Date: | May 6, 1997 |
| Pages: | 43 |
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
STATE ATTORNEY INVESTIGATION
RE: LISA McPEERSON
SWORN
STATEMENT OF: ANDREA J. SPRECHER.
TAKEN BY: MARK MCGARRY.
DATE: May 6, 1997.
BEFORE: Kristine M. Blake, RNR
Notary Public,
State of Florida at Large.
PLACE: Criminal Justice Center
B-200,
Clearwater, Florida.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT (813)224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG, CLEARWATER (813)821-3320
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APPEARANCES: MARK MCGARRY, ESQUIRE,
Assistant State Attorney,
Attorney for State of Florida.
KEVIN J. DARKEN, ESQUIRE,
Trenam, Kemker,
2700 Barnett Plaza,
101 East Kennedy Blvd.,
P.O. Box 1102,
Tampa, FL 33601-1102.
Attorney for Church of Scientology.
ALSO PRESENT: SERGEANT WAYNE ANDREWS.
DETECTIVE JORGE CARRASQUILLO.
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ANDREA J. SPRECHER, the witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and was deposed as follows:
EXAMINATION
BY MR. MCGARRY:
Q. Hi. What -- what name do you go by? I mean - -
A. A.J.
Q. A.J.?
A. That's right.
Q. For the record, would you state your name, please.
A. My name is Andrea Jane Sprecher.
Q. Okay. My name's Mark McGarry. I'm a prosecutor. I'm conducting an inquiry into the death of Lisa McPherson, and your name came up as a person that might have some knowledge as to the circumstances around the time period that she was at the hotel, between November 18th of 95 and December 5th of 95, so I'm going to be asking you some questions pertaining to those dates. Your lawyer might want to put something on the record for you and then we'll begin.
MR. DARKEN: Great. Ms. Sprecher is asserting her Fifth Amendment rights under the United States Constitution and is testifying pursuant to the
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use immunity and derivative use immunity provisions of Florida Statute 914.04.
MR. MCGARRY: Thank you.
BY MR. MCGARRY:
Q. What's your birth date?
A. My birth date is X, 1952.
Q. And where were you born?
A. X, California.
Q. Did you grow up in California?
A. I sure did.
Q. Okay. When did you move to Clearwater?
A. Let's see. I think July, August 88, around there.
Q. And the purpose of the move to Clearwater, was that -- were you with the church then?
A. I was not a staff member at that time. My purpose of moving here at that time was to become a staff member.
Q. When did you join the church? When did you initially have contact with the church?
A. 1976.
Q. And were you a staff member in California? I take it you were not.
A. For a very short period of time at a local mission in that area, yes, for about 11 months --
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Q. Okay.
A. -- but more just a church member, did volunteer work with the church for a period of years before I became a staff member here.
Q. Okay. Did they ask to you move here in 88 for purposes of the staff position you had taken?
A. No. I asked to move here to become a staff member.
Q. All right. Did you have an idea what skills you could give -- bring to the church and what duties that you were gonna perform for them?
A. Not totally. I was interested in becoming a staff member because I wanted to be involved in a group that was going to help people, to be involved in the community, whatever. Because the goals of the church were my own personal goals, I arrived.
Q. All right. How far does your formal education go?
A. I was in college for two years, two and a half years.
Q. And what did you study?
A. Music, anthropology.
Q. Okay. Do you have any medical background at all?
A. No.
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Q. Okay. What assignments did you get in 1988 when you came on board with the church?
A. When I first came I was given training just as a general staff member on the basic policies of the church, how a staff member, you know, functions within a church. I had a position for the first, I guess, two years, three years in a position that's called a cramming officer, and what that position is is someone who works with the counseling, auditors, supervisors and actually helps them with their study; in other words, like a -- it's not a teacher but it's someone who works with students to help them understand their materials better, find out what they didn't know, correct them when they're making errors. That was my job at that time, my first job.
Q. And for this they provide you room and board, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And were you living in the Hacienda?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Okay. Is that where you currently reside?
A. Yes.
Q. Somewhere along the line, I assume your staff position or your post changed?
A. That's right.
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Q. When was that?
A. Let's see. Three years into it -- probably, I'd say, two years. I've had several position changes. The second one was more of a supervisory position. It's called the qualifications secretary, and that was like a division of the church over the delivery of the services that we do to make sure that quality was maintained. I was a supervisor of that division and that was for two years, two, three years, I guess, and then in 1993 moved to a position called staff section officer, which was just one notch down from the position I had had before, and that position was the person who was responsible in making sure that the staff of the church in Clearwater overall were properly trained for their jobs, were cared for, that they were themselves personally moving with the processing, et cetera, so I was offered the public lines and now onto the staff -- care of the staff, and I was a senior over that.
Q. Okay. And is that the positions you had during this period of November of 95?
A. That's right.
Q. And you currently still do that or do you have - -
A. No.
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Q. -- another position now?
A. I have another position which I was promoted to in Christmas of just this past year.
Q. They call -- I thought -- maybe you can explain it to me. Go ahead and tell me what you do now.
A. What I do now, I'm another -- I've moved up again over a totally different division, and I am the division head over a section of the church in Clearwater which delivers the advanced courses to public. I'm the division head. It's called -- the technical secretary is the name of the post, and I work in the building on Osceola Street, the Sandcastle. That is my building.
Q. Oh, you're over there now?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. I understand that's a very nice building.
A. Yes.
Q. You -- you termed this position change as a promotion. Is that -- is that how they view things within the framework of the church? I thought they were necessarily -- that all jobs weren't necessarily called promotions, they were -- but I guess there is a hierarchy in supervisory positions in the church.
A. I don't know how they view things. From my KANABAY COURT REPORTERS. 8 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT
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view, moving from a position where I'm responsible for --
Q. More people?
A. -- 14 staff members as opposed to 90 staff members is definitely a step in responsibility up, which that was.
Q. I would agree with that.
A. Right.
Q. Okay. Going back to -- to Lisa, did you know Lisa before any of this thing went on with the church? Have you ever - -
A. No.
Q. -- met her before?
A. I've never met her nor seen her.
Q. Okay. Your name came up in some of our interviews, and I think the area that it came up in is I think you were assisting Mr. Kartuzinski at that time. Is that true or not true?
A. Not true.
Q. Not true.. Well, let's go ahead and get how you first came in contact with Lisa.
A. Sure.
Q. If you would tell us how you came in contact with her.
A. My first contact with anything regarding Lisa
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McPherson was I had a small section within my department, the medical liaison office, which I'm sure you know a lot about.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. And within that section, fortunately or unfortunately, there is a position called the public medical liaison officer.
Q. Emma was in charge of that, right?
A. That's right, Emma Schamehorn, and she's the person who -- since we service, you know, anywhere from 1,000 to 1,500 public at any given time or there at the church, there needs to be someone who the public can go to if they're ill or to see a doctor, to get referred to someone in the area, and that is her job.
Q. Emma's job?
A. Emma's job, that's right, or -- was or still is, and it happened to be in my department only because I was responsible for the staff MLO, and these two -- rather than have two separate locations where, you know, card files and names of doctors and et cetera was, it was put in one thing. The public service did not come under me. I didn't really have anything to do with the public particularly given that there are 1,000 staff on base there at the church. That's what I was responsible
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for, but Emma's location physically and her office was within the staff MLO office. So because of her connection with Lisa when she first arrived at the church, after she was brought to the church, that's how I became aware of it and in contact with it.
Q. All right.
A. Does that make sense?
Q. Yeah, it does.
A. Okay.
Q. So how -- how did you learn that she -- she was a -- becoming a guest at the --
A. At the hotel?
Q. -- hotel?
A. I can't tell you for sure if Emma informed me that she was -- had been called to help care for someone who had just arrived at the hotel or if someone else did. I just don't recall who told me, but I was told there was a person at the hotel named Lisa McPherson who had had some sort of emotional breakdown of some sort after seeing a car accident, had become very upset, had ended up in the hospital and then had been brought to the church and that Emma had been called over.
Q. Okay.
A. That's my first contact.
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Q. You gained that information through either Emma or--
A. I think it was from Emma, very honestly. She would, from time to time, inform me of things like that.
Q. So in your circle of responsibility here, you don't have contact with Mr. Kartuzinski?
A. I worked in a division where he also worked.
Q. Okay.
A. We were not in the same department.
Q. Okay.
A. He was not my supervisor. I was not his.
Q. Okay. So you did not assist him in any way really?
A. Not particularly. He -- if he needed or if anyone needed someone to assist on a public matter, if it was -- I mean, sometimes I knew about it. Very usually I did not, but sometimes I did.
Q. Were you aware that Mr. Kartuzinski was the senior for Lisa -- Lisa Mcpherson's senior? Were you aware of that?
A. That he was the supervisor --
Q. Right.
A. -- of her? Yes, I was. I mean, he, for his job position, was for any person that was there,
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meaning he would be ultimately responsible for the delivery of Scientology or Dianetic procedures to anyone that was there, not that he personally would be over -- Q At that time
A. At that time, yeah. At that time.
Q. Run that by me again.
A. At that time he was the senior technical person there at the church.
Q. For?
A. For the delivery of services to a public.
Q. I got you.
A. Their well being, their care they would get, auditing or training.
Q. Okay. So we have heard, through other interviews, that there was a procedure that was going to be implemented, but before the procedure could be implemented, they had to stabilize Lisa. Are you aware of that?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And the procedure --
A. Yes.
Q. -- was an introspective run-down? Now, that procedure would have been organized and implemented by Mr. Kartuzinski, correct?
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A. That's right.
Q. So he would have been the person that would have been ultimately looking after Lisa as far as stabilizing her for the implementation of that procedure
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Okay. Were you involved in that circle?
A. I'm not sure I understand that question.
Q. Were you involved in the -- in the -- in any of the report routing or any of the organization of the watch or the care of Lisa during this period of time?
A. Personally, no. I was asked to assist by having some of my staff assist him, but other than that, no.
Q. Mr. Kartuzinski, is that who you're talking about?
A. Right.
Q. And some of your staff might have been some of these people that I've talked to here?
A. Yeah, possibly.
Q. I mean, there's 15 or 20 of them. I can go through their names.
A. Sure.
Q. Janice, Laura, Sylvia, Rita, Barbro, Heather, Susan, Emma.
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A. Janice definitely. Janice was -- she was the staff medical liaison officer at that time.
Q. Oh, okay. Joan Stevens, Heidi, Alice, and Anna.
A. Some -- I mean, I know all of these staff members, but more from my position of caring for them, you know.
Q. All right. That's just some of them?
A. Yeah.
Q. So those people that I read off there were all, for lack of a better definition, care givers to Lisa?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And you might have been responsible for facilitating their schedules to participate in this?
A. No.
Q. No?
A. No.
Q. How -- how is your connection in there? You just -- you were just -- because of your minor role over the MLO office, you knew that Janice and Laura were involved?
A. I was asked by Alain Kartuzinski to have Janice come off of her position and assist on Lisa Mcpherson's care full time rather than on her own
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position.
Q. Okay.
A. So that was my connection.
Q. All right. And when did that conversation take place?
A. Boy, I'm not really sure. Probably within the first four or five days of her stay.
Q. Okay. If she started -- if she came to the hotel on November 6 -- excuse me, November 18th -- SERGEANT ANDREWS: This is November and December of 95 (indicating.)
BY MR. MCGARRY:
Q. That is a Saturday, so you're saying within that first week, you were requested by Mr. Kartuzinski to put Janice on a -- on a more full-time --
A. Uh-huh.
Q. -- situation --
A. Uh-huh.
Q. -- there?
A. Basically, because Emma, due to her age, et cetera, was not really available 24 hours a day easily, and that was the request.
Q. Well, my understanding, Emma doesn't really have a medical background anyway.
A. No, but nor does one need to on that
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position. That position is not a medical position --
Q. Emma--
A. -- to be a medical liaison officer. It's a liaison function.
Q. I understand that, but would you agree, though, that Lisa's situation was looking more medical all the time?
A. I don't know. I actually was not informed. I really wasn't.
Q. Okay. So -- all right. Tell me when your conversation was with Janice Johnson in reference to her duty change.
A. I can't give you an exact date. I'm sorry.
Q. Okay.
A. Within probably that first week.
Q. The first week sometime ballpark? I'm not going to try to pin you down.
A. That's fine. I just can't give you an exact date.
Q. Well, what was -- what did you tell her?
A. I was told -- Janice was with me. We were called to Mr. Kartuzinski's office and he explained that he needed someone who could be responsible on a more round the clock basis available, able to just -- someone he could work with and that -- he requested
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her, so that was pretty much it. It wasn't exactly to my advantage just from my own job, because my job was caring for the staff, and taking a staff person of f was -- you know, replacing her functions was definitely stressful for me.
Q. Right.
A. But it was what was needed, so that was really the extent of it, somebody needed help. That's the way it was. He called the shots.
Q. Okay. You mentioned he called the shots. He had the power -- so he had -- it's kind of hard to figure out the hierarchy in the church.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. When you talk about a division of -- of power as far as who can tell who what to do --
A. Right.
Q. -- he had the ability to tell you and Janice Johnson what to do at that particular time?
A. Not exactly. It's just that when there's a -- our church is there to serve the public.
Q. Yes, ma'am.
A. So if there was a situation where a guest really needed help, that's our job, so I would end up deferring to that. That was my own decision.
Q. Okay.
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A. I wasn't forced to do anything, nor was Janice forced. It was just that was obviously the greatest good in that situation, So --
Q. Okay. So take it from there. What -- what further contact did you have with eitherJanice and/or Kartuzinski in reference to these -- this period of time that we talked about, November of 95?
A. From that point I saw Janice occasionally. didn't really ask her about it much. Once in a while I'd say, "How's it going?" "Okay," whatever. But that was basically it. I had a lot of duties of my own, was not particularly involved. I didn't really see Alain Kartuzinski. It wasn't something that we discussed particularly. I think I saw him a couple of times, just "Is Janice, you know, performing the duties that you need? Is there anything else that she's not doing that you need? Let me know," that kind of a connection.
Q. Okay.
A. Really, I wasn't particularly involved in it.
Q. We've heard testimony that there was some quite astounding behavior going on with Lisa.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Were you privy to any of that information?
A. I never saw Lisa or heard Lisa herself or
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anything like that. There was one day when I needed to get some information from Laura Aranotha (phonetic) about a totally disrelated matter regarding a staff situation, and she was with Lisa in her room during the day, and I did go down to the room where she was staying outside. And there was a security guard outside who said that Lisa was quite violent at that time, had been throwing lamps around and that was it.
Q. Do you remember which security guard that was?
A. I think it was a guy named -- whose name was Attila Toth. He's no longer a staff member here. I think that's what his name was, Attila. That is the only time it was brought up to me.
Q. That she was acting bizarre?
A. That she was, you know, upset, distraught and violently so.
Q. All right. Were you aware of any of the medical procedures that were being implemented to help her along that Janice Johnson might have been involved with?
A. I didn't know there were medical procedures actually.
Q. I mean, as far as medication and/or care.
A. No. I don't think that there were.
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Q. There might not have been, but --
A. I don't know.
Q. We've heard people say, at least, she was given a prescription to. A I don't know.
Q. All right. How much time, if you know, did Janice Johnson take -- take out of her day in reference to Lisa Mcpherson's care?
A. I actually can't really say that I do know, because my own dealings with the medical liaison office probably amounted to about maybe a half an hour a day max out of my own time. I wasn't physically in that office. I don't know who was there, when they were there, when they weren't there. I wasn't informed about her schedule. I don't know actually.
Q. So you don't know whether she would just drop in or whether she would spend the entire day in there or - -
A. I don't know.
Q. Have you had a conversation with Janice since -- since all this back in November of 95 about Lisa Mcpherson?.
A. No.
Q. You haven't talked to her about what occurred and --
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A. No.
Q. Now, she's not in the MLO office anymore, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you know where she's at now?
A. Yes. She works in the same department of staff training, and she -- she works with staff training. She's in that section. Q.. And Mr. Kartuzinski is not in his same position either; is that correct?
A. No.
Q. What does he do now?
A. He's actually in training. He's actually in full-time training to advance his own technical training as a case supervisor.
Q. Personally?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And Laura is in Mexico, right?
A. I don't know, actually. I know she's not in the country. I don't know where she is.
Q. Now, I get Lacy Spencer mixed up with you in some of their conversations here only because your name sounds remotely similar, but what -- what position did she hold through here?
A. I don't know. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS. 22 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT
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Q. Do you know her?
A. I know who she is, but I don't know anything about her position. I didn't even think she was there at that time, a staff member. Don't know. Must be if you have it down.
Q. Susan Green was also in the MLO office at the time?
A. Right.
Q. I think she had another name.
A. Schnurrenberg?
Q. Schnurrenberger?
A. Right. She was Janice's senior, her supervisor. She was the administrative director of that office, managed the -- you know, the finances and all the staff there on the job, scheduled doctor appointments for the staff, et cetera.
Q. And Hugh Weber took her place?
A. Yeah, that's right.
Q. And Susan is now in Europe somewhere?
A. I think so. I don't know where she is. She. married, decided to have a baby and left the staff.
Q. All right. Were you present at the meeting with Marcus Corinno on the night of December 5th?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Did you have an opportunity to
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document or reduce to writing any of your contacts with anybody in reference to Lisa McPherson into a report form?
A. No.
MR. MCGARRY: Bear with me. These gentlemen would like to ask you some questions as well. THE WITNESS: Sure.
MR. MCGARRY: If you'd like to take a break, we can do that. If not, we can plunge ahead and get finished. THE WITNESS: Fine. EXAMINATION BY SERGEANT ANDREWS:
Q. I missed what your title was when -- during the time that Lisa was there. I missed that. You were the staff --
A. Staff section officer. I was the department head over the staff section.
Q. Okay. Janice Johnson was the staff MLO?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, as a staff MLO, you were in charge of that office. Can you briefly give a description of what the staff MLOs -- or I guess the public would be very similar -- what those jobs -- what their job description would be and responsibilities?
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A. Sure.
Q. Just a quick little thing.
A. The staff MLO or any MLO is just sort of like a reception or a relay point for -- in my case, I was over the staff area, so the staff member who was ill or needed to go to a dentist or an eye doctor would have someone to go to to lay out "This is what I need." "Good," and then that staff MLO would coordinate the finances that were needed to get them to the doctor so they could get whatever checkup or, you know, treatment that they needed. Pretty simple.
Q. All right. Do you know who picks these people, who would decide that -- like Janice Johnson, did you pick her as a staff MLO or did somebody else?
A. That's our personnel department. They would just assign whatever staff members to that area. No, I did not pick her.
Q. Okay. Personnel would be in a different division?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. The reason I ask is that I know that -- like Emma doesn't have any background, yet Janice Johnson ends up to be a medical doctor in Arizona, an anesthesiologist. Laura Aranotha ends up to be a seven-year or eight-year college medical graduate and
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several of the caretakers that were involved, Demonay (phonetic,) Valerie and several of those all have medical backgrounds.
A. Really?
Q. And in asking all of them, that medical background was included on their resume to the church.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. So, apparently, in my view, it looks like somebody was looking at resumes, job resumes or staff resumes to the church and assigning people to different positions.
A. I see.
Q. But you don't have any part of that?
A. No, not at all.
Q. Okay. So as -- as a supervisor myself, I have some type of say on the people who are going to work for me unless I inherit them, okay?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. In your supervisory position now, do you get to pick the people who work for you?
A. Where I am now?.
Q. Yes.
A. Well, in our -- in our organization there is a personnel department and personnel are assigned under -- they're just assigned to you.
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Q. Okay. So you don't get a chance to pick the people who work for you?
A. Not particularly. I mean -- no, not really. It's not that you don't have anything to say about it. If I now, in my position, was going to be given a secretary, I'm sure I would be informed, "Hey, you know, we have a secretary picked out for you. She's coining tomorrow. You're going to like her. She's a good girl. She's got this background" or whatever, but it wouldn't be me saying I don't want it or I want it.
Q. So you wouldn't get 25 resumes and read through and pick a person like they do in regular employment?
A. Not at all, no.
Q. Okay. Now, all of the understanding from your testimony is that a medical liaison officer's job is to actually defer, like a referral type of thing?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. I'd like to show you a report. Just bear with me a minute. I wasn't going to use it, but I thought, well, maybe I should. I have a report here written by Janice Johnson that I'd like to show you.
A. Okay.
Q. Here we are. I'm sorry. Now, in this report it's referenced to Lisa McPherson at the top. Okay.
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And in this report is J. Johnson down here (indicating) is MO down here is --
A. Medical officer.
Q. Okay. It says given two milligrams magnesium chloride -- which that's what -- I found out from the doctors that that's what that stands for -- IM.
A. What does IM mean?
Q. Intramuscular, which means it's an injection into the intramusculars at 12:30 plus two 500 milligrams chloral hydrate capsules pierced and the little gel squirted into her mouth. She says that she swallowed them. Respiration rate she takes at 18 to 24. Extremities still cool but not cold. Needs -- the person on staff, I guess, needs relief now. I will stay until the replacement comes. And then she indicates here -- this is the plan, that Valerie on watch, personnel with medical training for the next eight hours.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, what I see in this report and what has been testified to by other people is that Janice Johnson came into the room, took a syringe out, gave a shot to Lisa McPherson of magnesium chloride and then gave her prescription drugs, okay. Is that in the. MLO's job description?
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A. To give injections? No.
Q. To give injections and prescription drugs to public members, I guess.
A. No.
Q. This was a guest.
A. A doctor would have to administer, you know, or a nurse that was under a doctor would do that.
Q. And the reason I ask you is because you were in charge of that office at that time, and all, of us, as supervisors, unfortunately, have to carry some type of responsibility of the people that work for us and their job descriptions, so would it be your testimony today that -- in looking at this report, that Janice Johnson was well beyond the church's guidelines as far as being a medical liaison officer as your understanding is in what her job should be?
A. I can tell you I have not seen every single thing that has ever been written about the functions of a medical liaison officer, but from what I do know, a medical liaison officer is only a liaison officer.
Q. That's exactly what I want. Thank you. I know that you said you didn't write any reports that you can remember, right?
A. Okay.
Q. Okay.
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A. No, because I didn't have anything to write about really. Q.. Now, there was a watch going on, and my understanding is it was in the Cabanas at 174. I guess that's where you might have seen the security guard outside?
A. That's right.
Q. Your position at the time, I know that you only had loaned Janice Johnson from your office --
A. Right.
Q. -- to Alain Kartuzinski, but did you have the authority at the time to walk into Lisa's room?
A. No, absolutely not.
Q. Okay. Would you have the authority at that time to end this whole watch and cycle that was going on?
A. Not from my position, no.
Q. Okay. Who would have -- who would have that authority to stop this? Who would have the authority to send Lisa home or to a hospital?
A. Lisa herself would, Lisa's family. Within the church itself, who was responsible for changing her treatment or her handling or her care, I would say Alain..
Q. Okay. Because there's been testimony that,
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you know, her family couldn't visit her and that Lisa was acting strange and couldn't make decisions for herself.
A. Right.
Q. So, apparently, for 18 days somebody there at the church was making decisions. If you had -- as kind of a co-supervisor there, if you had to pick, it would have been Alairt Kartuzinski making the decisions?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, I just want to talk to you briefly about -- does Janice Johnson still work for you?
A. No.
Q. Okay. All right. So you're into training for the public?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. So she would be into training for the staff?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. Now, this is just an outsider's view of the church. I looked at Alain Kartuzinski, who at the time was a senior case supervisor.
A. That's right.
Q. I read an article in one of the magazines, I think it's Source or one of those, about Alain Kartuzinski, and after reading the article, it seemed
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that he held quite a -- I don't want to say powerful but quite a high decision making role in the church as the senior case supervisor. Apparently, he was in charge of other auditors who were working on other cases, and so he held a high position?
A. That's right.
Q. And now my understanding is that he -- from other testimony that he's just back to being an auditor. Now, I know you said that he's back to training for his own --
A. Right.
Q. -- benefit.
A. As far as I know, that's what he's doing. don't see him particularly or --
Q. Okay.
A. I haven't talked to him for quite some time, but as far as I know, he's training, actually, which is not unusual in our organization.
Q. All right. Is there a new senior case supervisor?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Who is that?
A. His name is Richard Reiss.
Q. Richard Reiss?
A. Uh-huh. R-e-i-s-s.
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Q. Okay. Now, to me, on the outside it looked like or. there's been testimony that there was a possible investigation into Lisa's death. Would that be uncommon at the church? Well, I'll give you an example. People have testified that after Lisa died they were all required to report -- write reports to Marcus Corinno --
A. Uh-huh.
Q. -- who is a deputy chief or something in the organization, that Debbie Cook and Don Jason were there, that there were a lot of people quarantined after her death because of the possibility of a communicable disease that she may have had and an investigation into her death.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Shortly thereafter, Janice Johnson now no longer is an MLO but a ward clerk. Alain Kartuzinski is no longer a case supervisor, he's just an auditor. Arthur Baxter, who is a security chief is no longer a security chief. Now he's working for the Sandcastle.
A. He's a security chief at the Sandcastle, yeah, or the one down -- yeah.
Q. And Paul Kellerhals, who was in charge of Arthur Baxter, which would have been in charge of the security chief, now he's the security chief, so to me,
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from the outside everybody involved in any kind of decision making with Lisa McPherson has been demoted.
A. I don't know about that, actually.
Q. All right. Were you not privy to any investigation involved in
A. No.
Q. As a supervisor or staff member --
A. Uh-huh.
Q. -- supervisor of staff, have you ever had the opportunity to demote people who worked for you?
A. No. That's not within my --
Q. Okay. Who does that?
A. There isn't any real demotion exactly. It's the policy within the church that a person is not removed from their job position except by transfer, which is not a demotion, it's just a transfer, or if there is some situation where they were demoted, they have a procedure called the Committee of Evidence which is held to actually review the reasons why you would demote somebody, and until that is actually held and proceeded with, a person isn't demoted.
Q. Okay.
A. So-
Q. Would the description of all of those people writing these reports to Marcus Corinno -- would that
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be part of your understanding of the Committee of Evidence?
A. No.
Q. It would not?
A. No, it would not.
Q. Okay. I want to talk to you about the night Lisa died.
A. Okay.
Q. Somehow you got involved in that. Can you kind of tell us about that?
A. Sure. I was with Paul Greenwood, who you've already, I guess --
Q. We've talked to Paul.
A. -- talked to.
Q. That's how I got your name.
A. Yeah, right. I was with him and another one of my staff members called Clay Green. We were studying and doing some study activities, and I wear a message pager or wore a message pager on that position, because when you're dealing with staff, you tend to get a lot of --
Q. Calls?
A. -- traffic. That's right. And I had a message page to call a number back, or there was -- someone called me where I was.
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Somehow, I think I was message paged to come to a phone, and I don't remember who called me, very honestly, but someone called me and said, "I'm calling, you know, requesting assistance from one of your staff. Lisa" --~ I think they said her name, Lisa or Lisa McPherson, I'm not sure, "has become ill and we need to move her to a doctor, and we need another staff member to come who is -- you know, who's strong who could help us move her and who could do something like that," and Paul and Clay were with me, and I just immediately said, "Okay, I'll send Paul right now" and that was it.
Q. Okay. So for -- the reason on sending Paul is that he just happens to be a larger male --
A. Yeah.
Q. -- that's strong?
A. He's strong and he's very gentle, a very -- very caring, kind person.
Q. Okay.
A. And I thought, okay, for someone who's ill, that might just be the kind of person you'd want to have around if you were sick. Paul was sitting right next to me. I said, "Good, go."
Q. Did you know that Paul was a retired chiropractor?
A. Yes, I did.
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Q. Would that be part of the reason of sending him--
A. No. Q.. -- a medical person maybe?
A. No, no.
Q. Just sent him because of physical bulk?
A. He was there. He was big enough. If somebody needed to be moved, he could lift someone gently and help them.
Q. So you don't know who paged you or who told you that Lisa -- somebody needed help?
A. No, I don't. I just don't. I'm sorry. tried to reconstruct that, but I just don't remember who called. I get usually an average of 50 to 60 pages or calls during any given day --
Q. All right.
A. -- frankly, so --
Q. The message pager, is it just phone numbers --
A. Yeah.
Q. -- or is it the kind they can put paragraphs?
A. You can't write. It was just a beep.
Q. Did Paul ever talk to you when he came back about Lisa --
A. No.
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Q. -- about going to the room?
A. No. SERGEANT ANDREWS: No? Okay. I don't have any other questions. EXAMINATION BY.DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO:
Q. I just want to clarify a couple of things.
A. Sure.
Q. Who else from your staff did you assign to assist with Lisa beside Janice?
A. I didn't assign anyone to assist on Lisa's caretaking besides Janice. Janice was the only person that I was personally talked to about helping on Janice's (sic) care.
Q. When you had your meeting with Kartuzinski at that point in time, was it when Janice was assigned to his division?
A. That's right.
Q. Did you assign anybody else at the time?
A. Unh-unh.
Q. Okay. Does Laura Aranotha work for you also?
A. Uh-huh. She did at that time in that department, yes.
Q. Okay. Did you have to give the approval for her to go over?
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A. No, because I was not the direct senior of those staff members. Susan Green -- Susan Schnurrenberger was actually their senior, and she would, you know, assign people here, there or wherever, so I did not, but I did assign Janice or agreed to Janice.
Q. She was the only one you assigned directly?
A. Personally that I said good, she could go.
Q. How many of your staff finally wound up working on Lisa -- working with Lisa?
A. Laura did and Janice did.. Emma did the very first day, I think, when she first came from the hospital or from wherever she came from. I don't know if anybody else did, very honestly, of my own department but my three.
Q. Was Rita Boykin working for you?
A. I don't think she was working in the department at that time. I think she came afterwards. Maybe she was. I don't know. I don't remember when she first came there. She was a relatively new staff member at that time, so I don't know.
Q. Have you ever been involved or participated in introspection run-down before?
A. No.
Q. Do you know anything about it?
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A. Unh-unh. No, I've never read the materials. It's a training level that's advanced beyond my own technical training.
Q. From the people that I've spoken to, they said you have to be in generally good health to participate in this run-down. Would that be correct?
A. I don't know. I've never, like I said, read the materials of it.
Q. When you met with Kartuzinski and you assigned Janice over to Lisa, at that point in time did a conversation come up about needing people with medical background?
A. I don't recall. It's possible. It's possible, to be very honest, but I don't recall exactly what was said. I do recall specifically that it was brought up that Emma was not up to it, you know, being able to stay up that late or be able to come at three in the morning if it was needed, but I don't recall. I'm sorry.
Q. Okay. Just a couple more questions, then we'll be done.
A. Sure.
Q. When you went down to Lisa's room, I believe you were going to see --
A. Laura.
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Q. Laura at the time?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You said the door was locked?
A. I don't know that the door was locked. The door was closed.
Q. And there was a security guard out front?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Did you ever go in the room?
A. No.
Q. Did you hear anything coming out of the room?
A. No. DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: No more questions.
MR. MCGARRY: Thank you.
(Whereupon, sworn statement was concluded.)
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STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
I, the undersigned authority, certify that
ANDREA J. SPRECHER personally appeared before me and
was duly sworn.
WITNESS my hand and official seal this 16th day of May, 1997
KRISTINE M. BLAKE, RNR,
Notary Public - State of Florida,
My Commission No. CC523799,
Expires: 2-21-00.
page 43
STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
I, Kristine M. Blake, Registered Professional
Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did
stenographically report the sworn statement of
ANDREA J. SPRECHER; that a review of the transcript was
not requested; and that the transcript is a true and
complete record of my stenographic notes.
I further certify that I am not a relative,
employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties,
nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.
DATED this 16th day of May, 1997.
KRISTINE M. BLAKE, RMR,
Notary Public,
State of Florida at large.
My commission expires: 2-21-00.