1 IN THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
STATE OF FLORIDA
2 STATE ATTORNEY INVESTIGATION
3
4 RE: LISA MCPHERSON,
Deceased.
5
_______________________________________/
6
7
SWORN STATEMENT OF PATRIZIA STRECENER
8
TAKEN BY: Office of State Attorney,
9 Bernie McCabe
10 April 3, 1997 9:00 a.m.
11 BEFORE: Sandra A. Ambush, CSR, RMR,
Notary Public
12 State of Florida at large.
13 PLACE: Office of State Attorney
B-200 Criminal Justice Center
14 Clearwater, FL
15 APPEARANCES: MARK R. MCGARRY, JR.
Assistant State Attorney
16
ROBERT P. POLLI,
17 Barnett Bank Plaza
101 East Kennedy Blvd. #313O
18 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Mr. Greenwood
19
LEE STROPE,
20 Florida Dept of Law Enforcement
21 WAYNE ANDREWS,
Clearwater Police Department
22
23
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
24 TAMPA AIRPORT NARRIOTT, (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG, CLEARWATER, (813) 821-3320
25
2
1 MR. MCGARRY: You want do your --
2 MR. POLLI: My name is Bob Polli,
3 P-o-l-l-i. I represent Miss Strecener. And we're here
4 pursuant to a state attorney issued subpoena. I have
5 discussed with my client the protections that are provided
6 in Florida Statute 914.04. I believe she understands what
7 these protections are. And we're ready to proceed
8 pursuant to the subpoena. Thank you.
9 PATRIZIA STRECENER,
10 the witness herein, being first duly sworn was examined
11 and testified as follows:
12 EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. MCGARRY:
14 Q. Hi. My name is Mark McGarry, I'm a prosecutor.
15 I think you know why we're here. We're going to discuss
16 some of the days that you spent in Clearwater taking care
17 of Lisa McPherson.
18 Do you recall that period, of time in your
19 life?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay; Before we start with that two week
22 period, I need to get some background information on you,
23 if I could. What's your birth date?
24 A. X `61.
25 Q. All right. And is the name you gave the court
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1 reporter here earlier, is that your given name? Is that
2 the name you were born with?
3 A. No. It's X I marriage.
4 Q. So that's a married name?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You currently married right now?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Is your husband in this country or is he --
9 A. Yes. No, he's here.
10 Q. He's here?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. How long have you been married to him?
13 A. It's a four year almost. Three year and then
14 eight months.
15 Q. And are you a member of the Church?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How long have you been a member of the Church?
18 A. Four year.
19 Q. Four years?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And where are you currently living?
22 A. I'm living in the X.
23 Q. Okay. Is that Property owned by the Church?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How long have you lived at that location?
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1 A. There is six month. Before I was living in
2 Haciendas in Hacienda Garden. It's Hacienda, with H, yes.
3 Yeah.
4 Q. Okay. And who do you live in this current
5 address with?
6 A. With my husband and my son.
7 Q. How old are is your son?
8 A. Nine years.
9 Q. Is your husband also a member of the Church?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, are you -- are you a staff member?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When you first joined the Church was that here
14 in Clearwater?
15 A. No, not really. It was in Italy. I was staff
16 member in Italy.
17 Q. In Italy? Good. That's why I asked.
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Is that where you're originally from?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. And what caused you - - did you move from Italy
22 to Clearwater?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Why did you move from Italy to
25 Clearwater?
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1 A. I move in `90 to get training here, in --
2 Q. In reference to the Church?
3 A. Yes. And I was staff member in Italy. I was
4 sent from my Church in Italy to get training. I did one
5 year, I did thirteen months of training here. Then I went
6 back in Italy. I find a replacer for my post, and I
7 decide to move.
8 Q. To move back to Clearwater? You liked
9 Clearwater?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What training are we talking about? Is that for
12 a staff position?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And can you be more descriptive or --
15 A.. Like, the name is auditor, but it's somebody who
16 has some technology to help people to be more able in the
17 life to find out what's their problem, and --
18 Q. So, did your husband come from Italy, also?
19 A. No, no.
20 Q. You met him here?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Okay. So what were your duties when you first
23 came to the Church the second time back?
24 A. The beginning I was -- the name is a Tech. Page,
25 like somebody who drive people who are arriving in
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1 Clearwater, and they don't know what terminal they need to
2 see. I was helping to find the correct terminal for the
3 people.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. -- for the first post.
6 Q. Okay. All right. And is that what you're-doing
7 now?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. What are you doing now?
10 A. I'm doing a different. Like I'm the --
11 responsible to be sure that everybody, when they coming
12 from another country, they have everything they need. Not
13 only--I not drive people, but I find out if they have,
14 ah, their folder, you know, the -- there is a recorder for
15 the auditing, for the auditing, we call the practice.
16 That they get it, you know, they come from other country,
17 arriving here. And the person get interview from somebody
18 in the Church, say everything is ready to deliver
19 counseling.
20 Q. What -- So your citizenship is still Italian,
21 right? You're not a U.S. citizen?
22 A. I'm -- I have -- my husband is American.
23 Q. That's right, you've married an American?
24 A. Yes. I'm married in America.
25 Q. Yes. I see what your status is.
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1 A. Alien is -- permanent alien. Not permanent,
2 yet.
3 Q. Right. But you're in the transition period?
4 A. I'm doing it, yes.
5 Q. Going back to the month of November of 1995,
6 that is the period that we're going to be talking about
7 here, where Lisa was staying at the cabana section of the
8 hotel.
9 Were your duties then, at that period of time,
10 as you described?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Did you know Lisa McPherson prior to her
13 stay at the cabana section of the hotel?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You've never seen her or said "Hi" to her, or
16 talked to her?
17 A. Can you repeat the question? Sorry.
18 Q. Lisa McPherson, before she stayed that two week
19 period at the hotel?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Down on Fort Harrison, at the cabana.
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Did you know her before that?
24 A. Yes, I know her.
25 Q. How did you know her?
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1 A. I know her because she was a public flagger,
2 and--
3 Q. Can you repeat that? She was a --
4 A. She was a good servicer in the Church. And I
5 meet her a few time, like in the `93, `94, when she was
6 get servicing flag.
7 Q. Okay. Is that like training?
8 A. No, like counseling.
9 Q. Counseling?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Okay. Through courses, I guess?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay. How did you become involved -- I take it,
14 from talking to some of your other staff members, you
15 became involved in her watch?--
16 A. Mm-hmm.
17 Q. When she was staying at the cabana, correct?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. How did you become involved in that?
20 A. Well, basically it was a Friday night.
21 MR. POLLI: Slowly.
22 THE WITNESS: All right. It was a Friday
23 night, when like after dinner around 8:00, 8:30, a
24 security from the Church ask me to go in the senior CSS
25 office, to see, basically, the person who was try to
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1 organize all this watch.
2 Q. Okay. Who was that person?
3 A. The person who was organizing was Gabby Sanchez.
4 And the person who was doing the briefing about the cycle
5 was Alain Kartuzinski. Then I went upstairs in this
6 office in the fourth floor in Fort Harrison, and Gabby
7 Sanchez told me about the cycle, because --
8 Q. Is that Gabby?
9 A. Gabby.
10 Q. Gabby Sanchez?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I've never heard that name before. That's why I
13 was--
14 MR. ANDREWS: It's Gabriel.
15 MR. POLLI: It's -- she's a woman?
16 THE WITNESS: A girl, yeah, a women.
17 BY MR. MCGARRY:
18 Q. Sanchez. She's the one initially found you to
19 talk to you?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. And she had you speak with Mr. Kartuzinski?
22 A. Yeah. In the beginning, no. In the beginning
23 she explain me, she told me about what the cycle was, what
24 they was supposed to handle, basically. It was try to
25 find a lot of staff member to do this watch, six hour
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1 each.
2 Q. That's what the cycle was going to be, six
3 hours?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And Kartuzinski was the one that was
6 organizing this, as far as you knew?
7 A. He -- he -- No, it was not organized. It was to
8 do the briefing, like.
9 Q. Okay. Well, what's the briefing about? It was
10 about a procedure that was going to be taking place?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Not a procedure?
13 A. No. Well, also a procedure, but tell us what
14 was exactly the situation of Lisa at that moment. And she
15 was not in a mental condition to do anything. And what we
16 are supposed to do, like, ah, don't talk with her,
17 don't -- you know, don't give her any order. Be very
18 quite, very relaxed with her. Or help her to make sure
19 that she don't make any damage on her body or on my body,
20 like, because she was sometime violent. Yeah, a briefing
21 like this.
22 Q. Now, you said this was a Friday. Is this, as
23 you know it, when she first came to the cabana? Or was
24 this after she'd already been there alittle while?
25 A. No. I know she was there before.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 Q. Okay.
2 A. When I went there I didn't know when she arrived
3 in the cabana. I know later.
4 Q. So, but you know it was a Friday?
5 A. Yeah. I'm sure it was Friday.
6 Q. Okay. I'm looking at a calendar here that's
7 from 1995. There is a Friday that is the 24th of
8 November?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Which is the day after Thanksgiving.
11 A. Yes, it was the 24. Yeah.
12 Q. So that would have been the day?
13 A. Yeah, the 24.
14 Q. Okay. And that night you met with Alain
15 Kartuzinski?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what time did you say that was?
18 A. I meet with Alain Kartuzinski later, like 10:30,
19 11. Because the Friday night that is, ah, there is a kind
20 of a-- I don't know if I can say the name, the
21 graduation, like a --
22 MR. POLLI: Graduation.
23 THE WITNESS: Graduation. We made the
24 graduation in the auditorium. And I meet Gabby Sanchez
25 before this. I went to see the graduation, and then I
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1 went to meet Kartuzinski, and it was like after 10:30.
2 BY MR. MCGARRY:
3 Q. Okay. Now, that Friday night do you know where
4 Lisa was that night? Did you see Lisa that Friday night?
7 A. After this briefing from Kartuzinski they start
8 organize who will be the time for each. And I asked to be
9 the first, to go like to do that night.
10 Q. Okay. And did you work that night, that Friday
11 night?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And who was with you, if anybody?
14 A. Was a -- do the watch with me, was Anna
15 Pederrzini. A-n-n-a. Pederrzini. I need a pen.
16 P-e-d-e-r-r-z-i-n-i.
17 MR. POLLI: Pederrcini? C-i-n-i?
18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. "Z."
19 BY MR. MCGARRY:
20 Q. So she -- Is she still around? Is she in
21 Clearwater right now?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. She still does right now? She's local here?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Do you see her periodically?
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1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. So you and Anna had the Friday night of the
3 24th?
4 A. Yeah. From like eleven, was the -- from eleven
5 to five in the morning.
6 Q. Okay. Um, when you first -- let's go back to
7 the briefing then, that Kartuzinski was giving you.
8 Did he tell you how long she was going, to be
9 staying and what your goals were? I mean, did he tell you
10 what, what your ultimate goal was in this?
11 A. Yeah. He told that she was a, like we call it,
12 Type Three personality mentally. Not in good shape. And
13 it's--he say that he want to have a lot of people to do
14 the cycle to be sure that everybody is not tired when we
15 are doing the cycle.
16 Q. What does "doing the cycle" mean?
17 A. Like, stay there.
18 Q. Oh, the watch?
19 A. The watch, be there.
20 Q. I got you. That's your word for --
21 A. Not to be tired, that we can't be upset or
22 anything like this.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. And that he say that could -- was supposed to
25 be -- he don't know if it was a short cycle or could be
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1 also for weeks, because sometime needs a weeks (sic) or to
2 end a situation like this.
3 Q. Right.
4 A. To get the person destimulated, back like how it
5 was before.
6 Q. Normal?
7 A. Normal, yeah.
8 Q. Okay. So part of that is no talking around
9 them?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And you take care of them?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Feed them?
14 A. Yes. Whatever she need.
15 Q. Whatever comforts she needs?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Was it your understanding that she was to stay
18 in the room? Or was she allowed to roam around, or do
19 whatever she wanted?
20 A. She was supposed to stay in the room because she
22 be around, I think.
23 Q. Okay. You were worried if she went out she'd
24 hurt herself?
25 A. Yeah.
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1 Q. Okay. Did she ever try to leave the room, as
2 far as you knew?
3 A. Never.
4 Q. Did she say she wanted to leave the room?
5 A. She never asked, and she never obtained to do.
6 Also, I was very worried because the cabana has this big
7 window, you know, but she never arrived to this window.
8 Q. Okay. So the only people -- the only person you
9 met with in reference to this plan --
10 A. Mm-hmm.
11 Q. Would have been Mr. Kartuzinski and Gabrielle,
12 Gabby?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Those were the two people you talked to. You
15 didn't meet with an individual by the name of Oliver, or
16 Olivier, or Jake or Gelatka?
17 A. Jelatka?
18 Q. Jelatka?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know of him?
21 A. Yes, I know him.
22 Q. Do you know that he was involved in this a
23 little bit?
24 A. Later.
25 Q. Later he was?
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1 A. Yeah. Not at that time.
2 Q. Okay. How about, did you ever meet with Arthur
3 Baxter or Paul Kellerhouse about any of this? Do you know
4 who they are? They're security people.
5 A. The security, I saw the security before
6 going, you know, to cabana to give all my watch, or the
7 key, you know, everything that can be dangerous that she
8 can maybe bring with me and make damage, you know, like
9 this, the ring. Yeah.
10 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Kartuzinski ever mention to you
11 that once she was stabilized and returned to normal, we're
12 going to do what's called an introspective rundown? Was
13 that the plan? That was--
14 A. Yeah. He didn't say to me about this, but I
15 know.
16 Q. That's what the procedure was?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. That's what goes next, after somebody becomes
19 back to normal?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. But you never got to that, right?
22 A. No. Well, I don't know.
23 Q. What you know?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to that first night, eleven
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1 o'clock at the cabana. You -- You and Anna arrived at the
2 same time?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was there a security guard at the door?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who was that?
7 A. Sammy.
8 Q. That was Sam Geo --
9 A. Geyora (phonetic), yes.
10 Q. Is -- tell me how that door works. Is that door
11 locked on the outside?
12 A. No. It was not locked. I don't -- before go
13 inside the cabana we went in the next cabana, that where
14 was the housekeeping room. In there there was Barbara,
15 who give us more date (sic) about the cycle.
16 Q. More data?
17 A. Yeah. Yeah. Like how dangerous she was.
18 Because without -- Alain, Alain told me and told Anna,
19 also, that she was supposed to sleep that night. She was
20 taking, I think, some pills to sleep. And was supposed to
21 be a very quiet watch. Like she will -- she will sleep.
22 You make sure if she wake up everything she need, like
23 this.
24 And when I went in this, to meet Barbara before
25 going inside, she told me that she was very, very
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1 dangerous, to make sure that she doesn't make a problem to
2 us. Like she told me that another staff member has a
3 problem, like she punched in the eye. And she will try to
4 kick you. She will try to harm her. Like she was a --
5 like a serious crazy. And that's it. And I was, like,
6 not -- I didn't believe her at that time. It was like,
7 yeah. At that moment I was like I didn't trust her really
8 was like this.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. And then we went in.
11 Q. You went in? Who -- Did you relieve somebody?
12 Do you know what I mean? Was somebody else there, leaving
13 as you came in?
14 A. Yes. There was a girl, a woman that she's --
15 she's the dentist assistant, but I don't know the name.
16 She's a woman, very big woman, that the position she has
17 now, she is the assistant of the dentist of the Church.
18 Q. Of the dentist?
19 A. Yeah. But I don't remember the name.
20 Q. Does anybody have any idea?
21 A. Yeah. She was doing the watch before me, but
22 this girl --
23 MR. POLLI: She's been trying to remember
24 for about the last week.
25 MR. ANDREWS: We know a big woman by the
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1 name of Rita.
2 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Rita.
3 MR. ANDREWS: Rita? A very big woman,
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. A big woman.
5 MR. MCGARRY: Rita? Do I know that name?
6 MR. STROPE: Rita Boykin?
7 MR. ANDREWS: And often, maybe possibly
8 wear a denim? You know what denim is? Like a blue jean
9 material? You know, blue jeans? Do you know what blue
10 jeans look like?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 MR. ANDREWS: Does she wear a blue jean
13 dress?
15 MR. ANDREWS: Yes?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 MR. ANDREWS: Probably Rita Boykin.
18 BY MR. MCGARRY:
19 Q. Okay. Anybody else, or just her?
20 A. No, her. Only her. Yeah.
21 Q. What was Lisa doing when you went to the cabana?
22 A. She was sleeping.
23 Q. She was sleeping?
24 A. Yeah. She was under the cover and she was
25 sleeping.
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1 Q. You couldn't see her? She was hiding?
2 A. No. I can't see when I went inside there, no.
3 Q. And Anna was with you?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Did she do anything during your watch? Did she
6 awake?
7 A. Yeah. I guess she was sleeping for five, ten
8 minutes when I went inside there, because she was sleeping
9 there, I very quiet I start to, like, put some order in
10 the room. That was clothes, you know, stuff around. I
11 don't like to stay to do anything. I was start to make
12 some order in the room.
13 And after ten minutes she start to move in the
14 bed, and then she take the cover out, and she was -- ah,
15 she went to sit down in the bed. And, and I was -- when I
16 listen her to -- it was not talking, but make some noises.
17 I was in the bathroom. I went outside and I was -- I went
18 in the middle from her and the bed and the window, because
19 I was -- all the time I have that tension that she was,
20 you know, maybe going and put something in this big
21 window.
22 I went there. And she was sit on the bed and
23 she start to talk, and for thirty seconds I was -- I was
24 in shock to see her like this, because I never saw
25 something like this. She was talking to me or to nobody.
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1 Like, you know, I'm Michael Jackson. I'm Michael Jackson.
2 She's start to sing. She sucks her thumb. Sucks her
3 thumb. And I was like I was not able to move. I was --
4 it was something like I was in shock for one minutes.
5 And she was talking, talking, talking, talking,
6 and I didn't understand, really. Like I think I
7 understand ten percent of what she was saying. But she
8 was talking with like a -- like you're this, you're that.
9 And then she stand up and she was coming to me. And I,
10 like at that moment I was worried also because she was - -
11 I'm not too small, but she's very big. And I was worried
12 that she would -- I don't know, doing something. This is
13 what they told me also.
14 And she went to sit down in the chair, she was
15 close to me, she was indicate to me like usually there
16 usually things she was saying that, "You are not Michael
17 Jackson. You're not Ella La Rachel (phonetic). I'm -
18 Michael Jackson." And she sing, everything like this.
19 Okay? This was a most all the five hour.
20 Q. All morning?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Early morning?
23 Yeah, the early morning. Then -- okay? Then
24 she was talking like this for, I think, half an hour,
25 something like this. And sometime when she want to try to
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1 take the chair, I take the chair out from her hand. Or
2 maybe she was a punch on the wall, I stop her to punch on
3 the wall. Or she was like the -- the wall, how you say
4 when you --
5 MR. POLLI: Lick.
6 THE WITNESS: Lick the wall. Stop it to do
7 something like this. But it was all the cycle. Then
8 after one hour she was vomited. And then she was vomited
9 dark stuff, and I was very worried about this. And I went
10 to call Sam to call somebody to call the doctor, to call
11 somebody to find out if it was blood. Because it was
12 bled --
13 MR. POLLI: Blood?
14 THE WITNESS: Blood. Because it was very
15 dark in the room, I was not really able to see what was
16 happening. And Sam called and the first arrive the chief
17 security, P.K. And he was with the light here, because
18 you don't want to have the lights on. We want basically,
19 they always try maximum to get her to sleep, to be
20 relaxed. Okay? He was looking, and he say that it was
21 not blood. And then.
22 BY MR. MCGARRY:
23 Q. Not blood?
24 A. Not blood. And then -- and then he left. And
25 then she was try to eat what she was vomiting. Then I
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1 asked Sam to come inside again to help me to clean this
2 place, to clean the bed. It was very dirty with -- with
3 this vomiting. And he help me. I was looking at Lisa at
4 the same time. I took all the stuff from the bed out and
5 put the new stuff on the bed.
6 Then the doctor arrived, Janice. And Janice, I
7 told her what's happened. She was looking at her and she
8 was making I think she was make note to me that she has
9 the mouth, the inside, it was very red. Because she was
10 suck thumb very hard. And maybe the color of this
11 vomiting, it was because her mouth was -- also she was
12 lick the wall, and maybe this was very -- also broken,
13 thing like this.
14 And then when Janice was there she help us
15 to change the clothes, because she was very sweat. And we
16 changed the clothes. She has a T-shirt and underwear, and
17 we changed her with another T-shirt, but more -- not very,
18 how do you say? Not like this, more, more, ah --
19 Q. What time is all this occurring when Dr. Johnson
20 shows up?
21 A. Could be one, one-thirty, two o'clock. Like
22 from one to two o'clock.
23 Q. Okay. How did -- did Lisa react any way when
24 she saw Dr. Johnson?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. No?
2 A. It was like everybody was there, it was the same
3 for her. She was talking, but with nobody.
4 Q. Right. Did Dr. Johnson examine her mouth and
5 area that she -- after she was sick?
6 A. But she -- she was looking at her because about
7 this vomit, I think. I think that she was looking that --
8 no, she was looking, but I think she knew that the mouth
9 was very broken, and she told me.
10 Q. Okay. Did Dr. Johnson say what she suspected
11 was wrong with Lisa at that time?
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. So, how long was Dr. Johnson there?
14 A. Twenty minutes, half an hour.
15 Q. Okay. And what was Lisa doing when Dr. Johnson
16 left? The same thing?
17 A. The same before.
18 Q. Talking?
19 A. After the doctor left we try to give her some
20 vitamins, drink and vitamins, B-l. And we have a bottle
21 with a lot of B-l inside, and water. And she was joke --
22 like she was take the pills in the mouth and the water,
23 then sprung (sic) And we try for like half an hour.
24 Q. She'd spit it out?
25 A. Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
25
1. Q. On purpose?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Not because she was sick? She'd spit it out
4 just because she didn't want to drink it?
5 A. Because -- yeah. It was like it was make her --
6 she was making joke with us, you know. Yes, she was
7 taking the hand in the mouth, and then (indicating.)
8 Q. Okay. So what happens as the morning goes on?
9 A. Okay. After this? That we will try a lot to
10 get her to drink and take vitamins. To drink also,
11 because she was always very wet, sweat. And then I don't
12 know exactly what's happening, but I -- I decide
13 personally to keep -- to try to keep her on the bed to
14 keep her not moving, to keep her quiet. Like she was
15 always so nervioso (sic) moving, you know, talking and so
16 sweaty.
17 I told her to keep her head on the bed. And
18 that basically I take her, I put her down with face down
19 on the bed with my hands. And I went up on her, like to
20 keep her not moving. And that when I did this she kick me
21 very hard, like she make my back very pain (sic). And I
22 ask Anna at that point to help me to keep her feet to
23 stop, that I can keep her down. And I put the cover in
24 the way like she can stay down, like this. And I can keep
25 her and see her hand, because she was punch on the wall
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 sometime. She had this arm that was very blue. And I
2 started to make some massage in her back.
3 Q. Mm-hmm?
4 A. And I did this, I think, for one hour. And this
5 was like the only time that she was very -- she was almost
6 sleeping. She was talking, but more -- not fast like
7 before. And she was -- her body finally was a little bit
8 relaxed. And I continued to massage all this part of the
9 back. And she was very, very relaxed.
10 I was, I think after half an hour she was close
11 the eyes, and it was like she sleep. Finally, she can
12 sleep. But after one minute she open her eyes and she try
13 to bite me. Like she was not sleeping, but she was quiet.
14 And I keep her like this like until the next person
15 arrive. Like for more of one hour I stay like this.
16 Because she was, like, so exhausted, like very -- she was
17 very -- I don't know, was looking very tired. And I was
18 keeping her to -- for at least one hour it was when this
19 ended. When the next person arrive, she was quiet in the
20 bed.
21 Q. Okay. Did she eat or drink anything during your
22 shift?
23 A. No.
24 Q. She wouldn't? She refused?
25 A. Yeah, she was drinking, but she threw up always.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 She never keep water.
2 Q. All right. Did Dr. Johnson give her any
3 medicine at that time, that you know of?
4 A. No. When I was there, no.
5 Q. Did Dr. Johnson give you any instructions after
6 she left on what to do with her?
7 A. To try to give vitamins and water.
8 Q. And water? What time was your cycle over, or
9 your watch?
10 A. Five. Ten to five.
11 Q. Is that in the morning?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. That's you and Anna both.
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Did somebody come and take your place?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you remember who that was?
18 A. Valerie was one. And Kenia. I don't know if
19 it's name Kenia. Kenia? Yeah -- Smythe?
20 MR. POLLI: Smythe?
21 THE WITNESS: Smite, yeah. She was
22 working.
23 BY MR. MCGARRY:
24 Q. I guess a new person that we don't know. What
25 is the name?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 A. Kenia. K-e-n-i-a.
2 Q. Is she in Clearwater now, still?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Smythe?
5 A. Something like this. I don't know how to Smite
6 or Smythe, some like this. I don't know how to spell it.
7 Q. That was like at five a.m.?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. And what was Lisa doing when you left? Was she
10 sleeping?
11 A. She was not sleeping, but she was very like
12 relaxed in the bed.
13 Q. Okay. Can you further describe her physical,
14 her physical condition? Her strength? Her--Her mouth?
15 Her eyes? Could you tell if she was dehydrated or was she
16 weak? Can you give me the best physical description that
17 you can?
18 A. Yeah. Okay. About the face, okay. She was
19 looking tired, but she was looking very nervous.
20 Q. Nervous?
21 A. Nervous, yeah. The lips was very dry. And she
22 has one leg, one arm, one hand that was very blue. This
23 part, because she was doing like this all the time.
24 Q. Hitting the wall with her hand?
25 A. Yeah. And the one knee. The left knee was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
29
1 very -- was blue. This, I don't know, when I was there
2 really I didn't see that she was maybe punch with the
3 knee on the wall, but she --
4 Q. Could have done it some other time?
5 A. Could have done, yeah.
6 Q. Okay. Did you -- I -- Did you go back to your
7 duties? I imagine you went to sleep somewhere at that
8 time?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you again have another cycle that you
11 participated in?
12 A. No.
13 Q. That was the only one?
14 A. (Nods head.)
15 Q. The one time?
16 A. (Nods head.)
17 Q. Oh. So you never went back to the cabana to do
18 a cycle? Did you want to?
19 A. (Shakes head.)
20 Okay. No. I'm sorry, I was not willing to do
21 the first time. I asked to not do it the first time, but
22 I understand the situation, like, okay, I will help. If
23 need, I will help. After that, no. I was not willing to
24 do.
25 Q. I understand. Did Lisa ever use the bathroom
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 while you were there?
2 A. Nope.
3 Q. Did she ever go in her bed? Did she ever --
4 A. No. One thing that I noted when we changed her
5 clothes, and at that time was make sense to me about also
6 her mental situation, like I think she started the period.
7 That when we changed the underwear there was some blood.
8 Blood. And there was like a -- maybe after this she would
9 be better, I was thinking. Because we know that sometimes
10 a woman are strange before. Not like this, but -- I was
11 thinking maybe she would improve, you know.
12 Q. Okay. Now, a number of people have written
13 reports. Did you write a report?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You did?
16 Wayne, do you have that one? Do you have a
17 report on this?
18 MR. ANDREWS: I don't think so. Do you
19 have all these, Bob? You have them all?
20 MR. POLLI: I think I have. I've got a
21 lot.
22 ANDREWS: And she's not in here. Maybe
23 we could ask her to look through and see if she wrote--
24 any of those are hers?
25 THE WITNESS: No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 BY MR. MCGARRY:
2 Q. It's not in there?
3 A. No.
4 Q. When did you write your report?
5 A. The Sunday when I went back on post.
6 Q. That would have been Sunday, the 26th?
7 A. Yeah. Yes. Here, Sunday.
8 Q. Who -- who did you give the report to?
9 A. Alain Kartuzinski.
10 MR. POLLI: A-l-a-i-n. I don't know about
11 the second name.
12 BY MR. MCGARRY:
13 Q. Did you hand that directly to him?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Yeah, you got to speak up.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Now, do you know if Anna wrote a report
18 also?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. You don't know. Can you describe your report?
21 What you put in your report? Did you put in your report
22 what you just told us here today?
23 A. Yeah. But was very, like a very small, one
24 yellow page, like this. Like what she was doing, what I
25 did, and that's it. Very --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 Q. Was there anything else in there that you can
2 recall that I haven't asked you that would be in that
3 report?
4 A. No. Really I don't remember I wrote anything
5 else, like what -- what was happening at that night and
6 that's it.
7 Q. Did you put in the report that Dr. Johnson came
8 in and all that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. We don't have that report. Do you have
11 any problem with us getting that report, if it's
12 available?
13 A. No, it's okay.
14 Q. You don't mind?
15 A. No. Don't mind. Yeah.
16 Q. Now, did you have any additional contact with
17 Lisa after this?
18 A. No.
19 Q. That was it?
20 A. (Nods head.)
21 Q. After you wrote your report on the 26th of
22 November `95, that was the last thing you did in any of
23 this?
24 A. In all this cycle?
25 Q. Yeah.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 A. Not really.
2 Q. I don't understand your answer.
3 A. Like, no.
4 Q. That was it?
5 A. It was happen something more about this cycle.
6 Like -- okay. I, after few days, I don't remember the
7 days exactly, I went to find out if she was still in the
8 cabana. And I saw Sam in front of the door. And I asked
9 Sam how she was doing. He told me, answered me that she
10 was more quiet now. She was not dangerous like it was
11 before. And that's it, and I left.
12 Q. Okay. Is there any way that Lisa could have
13 been swimming in the swimming pool that night, Friday
14 night before you took your shift? I just got a wild story
15 that somebody saw her swimming in the swimming pool?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You doubt that?
18 A. I -- no, I absolutely doubt that.
19 Q. Just a wild thing. There was a -- there was a
20 large gathering of people that took-- ah, participated in
21 this cycle or this watch that met with, I believe it was
22 Mr. Kartuzinski, I think -- correct me if I'm wrong --
23 after she died.
24 Did you participate in that? Do you remember
25 that?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 A. No. I think the night that she was -- died, I
2 went in the Coachman, the building in front of Fort
3 Harrison and I meet, not with Kartuzinski, but I meet with
4 another terminal, Marcus Quirino.
6 BY MR. MCGARRY:
7 Q. Oh, Quirino.
8 A. Like he asking me three, four questions about
9 my, the watch I did. And there was a few, not all the
10 persons was doing watch. It was three person that they
11 ask a question about the watch.
12 Q. Okay. Did you write another report then?
13 A. Yes. When I write that report was, I think,
14 very short, four sentence; when this, when the watch was
15 done. How long was the watch. Who was with me, and
16 how --
17 Q. That was the day she died?
18 A. Yeah. Yeah.
19 Q. You didn't see that in that pack there, did
20 you? That, that report?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Again, do you mind if we get that? Do you --
23 you don't mind us reading that?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know how to spell his last name?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 Quirino? Marcus Quirino? Do we have that?
2 A. Q-u-i-r-i-n-o. Sorry.
3 Q. Is -- is there anything else you did, then in
4 reference to Lisa McPherson that I haven't -- you can
5 think of, that I haven't asked you?
6 A. About the watch?
7 Q. About anything?
8 A. After this, after the night I went away -- I saw
9 the date she was dying. After three days, three, four
10 days maximum, we have the order for me and my husband to
11 go in isolation, because there was, like a -- I don't know
12 exactly how was the cycle. It was, like, maybe realize I
13 had an infection. We need to be watched for one day to
14 find out if we are with -- if we have this infection or
15 not.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. And we was -- we went for one day in isolation,
18 like in another house.
19 Q. Okay. Do you remember any -- you -- I think
20 you've already answered this, I'll just touch on it. You
21 don't remember any pills that Lisa was taking to help her
22 sleep? Do you remember any of that?
23 A. When I was there, no. Alain told me she got
24 pills for sleep.
25 Q. For sleep?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Towards the end he said?
3 A. Yeah.
4 MR. MCGARRY: Okay. That's all the
5 questions I have, but I always miss things, and these
6 detectives might pick up on something.
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
8 MR. MCGARRY: So if you don't mind, they may
9 have a couple of questions for you.
10 THE WITNESS: Oh, sure.
11 MR. MCGARRY: And you're still under oath
12 for them as well. Okay?
13 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
14 EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. ANDREWS:
16 Q. Do you have any medical background? Medical
17 background? Medical training?
18 A. No.
19 Q. At all?
20 A. (Shakes head.)
21 Q. Before going to the Church as a staff member
22 what did you do? What was your occupation?
23 A. I was a financial consultant.
24 Q. A financial consultant?
25 A. Okay.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 Q. I'm getting pretty good at this. Financial
2 consultant. Okay.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you ever give auditing to Lisa?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Now, Alain Kartuzinski, he had that meeting to
7 organize the cycle?
8 A. Mm-hmm.
9 Q. Now, you're -- could you just give us your
10 understanding of the cycle? Since I guess you're an
11 auditor, so you know some of the Church policies. Maybe
12 beginning with why we would go into a cycle? I guess it's
13 a psychotic break type of thing?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you give us your understanding of the
16 cycle, and why? And what happens?
17 A. Repeat the question?
18 Q. I'm trying to get what your understanding of the
19 Church policies are?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In lieu of the treatment of Lisa. See, Lisa was
22 treated specifically, according to, maybe, Church policy?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And I was looking for your understanding of how
25 that was supposed to go?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 A. The cycle?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. The cycle there is a -- this policy, this
4 reference. And like, what she was supposed to go, the
5 cycle was like she was very over re-stimulated we say.
6 Like everything was around her was like make her worry,
7 nervioso, everything like this.
8 What the reference said is do everything to get
9 her out of the this state. Like this place is supposed to
10 be nice, clean, don't give her any order. Don't make her
11 any indication; like do this, or you are this, you are
12 that, because this make her worse.
13 And we are supposed to keep her very the most
14 possible quieted, tranquil situation. Environment like
15 that so she can feel safe. And at that point she can be
16 out of this situation. This mental situation.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. At that point then she can get auditing.
19 Q. Have you ever participated in one of these
20. cycles before?
21 A. No cycle like this before. But I, in the
22 beginning I was refusing to do this cycle because my
23 husband -- my ex-husband in Italy, he had a psychotic
24 break. It was a completely different situation. It was a
25 very small cycle. It was like he went completely out of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
39
1 mind for half an hour. He was very sick, he has a
2 counselor. He was completely out of mind for half an
3 hour. And I was able to handle the situation, and it was
4 back, like mental -- mentally it was okay. He was very
5 sick, after.
6 Q. That's the only other one you had?
7 A. In my life.
8 Q. Okay. So --
9 A. But it was really different. Like it was out of
10 mind for ten minute, half an hour, and then he was back.
11 Q. Okay. According to your Church policy if, at
12 any time in this cycle, okay, being your husband's or
13 Lisa's, if the person is ill, does the Church believe in
14 the policy of getting medical assistance?
15 A. Absolutely. We are supposed to do it.
16 Q. Okay. Now, in Lisa's case, you indicate that
17 she was sick, she was vomiting, and you were worried about
18 it being blood, or dark, black vomit.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you got medical help, apparently you
21 summoned help? You got ahold of Sam, and you got medical
22 help. What was that medical help that believed came
23 there?
24 A. At that point I didn't think that she was sick.
25 Like I think she was very mentally ill.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 Q. Okay. All right.
2 A. And about the sick, she was vomita (sic) was
3 like, I don't know, like, what she was eating before. She
4 was kind of nervous situation that everything can happen,
5 you know. I didn't see that, the idea that she was
6 physically sick at that moment. That she was okay.
7 The arm was blue, the knee was blue, but she was
8 so energetica, she was so -- she was so -- like, doing so
9 much thing that I didn't see. And when the doctor arrive,
10 okay, she was see how was the situation. I didn't expect
11 any more at that point time.
12 Q. I think what he was getting at -- maybe you
13 misunderstood me - - you made a conscious decision. You
14 were her care taker there, with Anna.
15 Is Anna older or younger than you?
16 A. Younger.
17 Q. So did you feel like you were the senior person
18 there?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Okay. You made a conscious decision when she
21 vomited. And you couldn't see real well to see what was
22 in the vomit?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. And you made a conscious decision to notify
25 someone. And what I'm getting at, is that person who you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 felt was responsible to come there and take care of it is
2 who?
3 A. Janice.
4 Q. Dr. Janice Johnson?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. That's what I was trying to get at.
7 A. Oh, okay. I'm sorry
8 Q. Okay. I understand.
9 The senior case supervisor, Alain Kartuzinski,
10 would -- according to Church policy and your belief, would
11 he have the authority to end this cycle and send Lisa to
12 the hospital?
13 A. If she was sick, yeah.
14 Q. Okay. Would he be the ultimate boss on Lisa's
15 cycling? Would he make the decisions on Lisa's cycle?
16 A. I think, yes.
17 Q. All right. And if you decided to send -- you're
18 one of the care takers, and you come there --
19 A. Mm-hmm.
20 Q. If you decide to put Lisa in the car and take
21 her to the hospital, would that be permitted? Or would
22 you have to get permission?
23 A. I don't think it's Kartuzinski. I got to get
24 permission. I need to give data that everybody understand
25 what the situation is. And if I give the correct
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 information everybody will be--
2 Q. Willing to take her to the hospital?
3 A. Yeah. Yeah.
4 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, how old is Anna, about? Just
5 approximately?
6 A. Twenty-five.
7 Q. Okay. I was going to ask you when you were
8 describing Lisa and the vomiting, you called Sam and
9 somebody came there. And I think you said P.K. or
10 somebody like that?
11 A. Yeah, the Chief of Security.
12 Q. Would that be Paul Kellerhouse? Is that who you
13 call P.K.?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. So he's the one that comes with the flashlight?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When, when this is occurring, before Paul
18 Kellerhouse gets there, what's Anna doing? Is she helping
19 you or --
20 A. She was very scared, like worried about --
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. She was usually in the corner, like where there
23 was another bed. She was like -- I was more active in
24 that cycle.
25 Q. Okay.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 A. She was helping. Like, I was looking her, like
2 we -- we didn't talk in this. Or maybe a few word only.
3 But I was looking at her to maybe give some nourishment.
4 Like, "go there and do something about" something like
5 this.
6 Q. When you summoned some help and Dr. Janice
7 Johnson came there, was it your belief that this was the
8 medical doctor coming there to take care of Lisa?
9 A. At that time, yeah.
10 MR. ANDREWS: Okay. I don't have any more
11 questions.
12 EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. STROPE:
14 Q. I just got a couple. You said you had a
15 conversation with Marcus after Lisa's passed away, when he
16 asked you four questions?
17 A. Marcus, yeah.
18 Q. What questions did he ask you? What did he want
19 to talk to you about?
20 A. He asked me when I did the watch. Who was with
21 me. How Lisa was in that moment, in that period of time.
22 And how long was the watch. Question -- yeah five, four,
23 five questions like this.
24 Q. And you said that Alain Kartuzinski told you
25 that Lisa had gotten sleeping pills?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Did he say where she had gotten those pills?
3 A. Where? No. Where, no, he didn't say. I
4 can't -- thinking, but I think it's my -- I don't know
5 really.
6 Q. Do you know a Doctor Minkoff?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you discuss your -- other than your
9 attorney, David, (sic) have you ever discussed your
10 testimony here today with anyone?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you go over what you were going to say here
13 today?
14 A. No.
15 MR. STROPE: I don't have anything else.
16 MR. ANDREWS: I -- I had a quick one I
17 forgot.
18 THE WITNESS: Yeah?
19 EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. ANDREWS:
21 Q. Some of the people did numerous watches. You
22 only did one?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. And you didn't want to do it to begin with?
25 A. Yeah.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 Q. But then you did one, and absolutely, sort of
2 refused not to come back. Why? Can you explain why?
3 A. I was really in shock of this cycle.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Like I -- I don't know. It was something that
6 for me l was-- what I was thinking when I went home, I
7 was not able to sleep all night, after you know, twelve of
8 the day after. I was think that I really was not able to
9 help Lisa. I was really not able to. Say I was so in
10 shock, you know to do this cycle. You need to be, you
11 know, relaxed.
12 Maybe now could be different if somebody is
13 asked to do, because I have more data. Or I don't know,
14 really. But at that time it was absolutely -- I was
15 thinking that if I go there it was not good for her, not
16 good for me.
17 Q. Do you think that anything else could have been
18 done, you know?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. What could have been done?
21 A. What I told Ursaline (phonetic) was that my
22 idea, my view point was go inside -- the room was very
23 nice, you know, there was nothing dangerous. But my idea
24 was go in another house. Also the reference that we use
25 it for to do this cycle is, are the people in the country
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 where is, you know, there is a tree around, the flowers,
2 things like this. Or in this space where I can be sure
3 that the person can be very relaxed.
4 In the room in the cabana is -- was okay,
5 but was not what I would think we were supposed to have
6 to -- not for Lisa's first, but also for the people who
7 are supposed to be there. You know, maybe in a big house
8 with nothing dangerous. That we can move them more, we
9 can see the light, you know. We can see green around.
10 This is what I was thinking was better to do.
11 MR. ANDREWS: Okay. Thank you.
12 MR. STROPE: I got one question.
13 BY MR. STROPE:
14 Q. Are you a personal friend of Janice Johnson?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you visit with her?
17 A. No. No.
18 Q. Have you visited with her or talked with her
19 since this watch?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Never discussed this with her? Have you
22 discussed it with Kartuzinski since this watch?
23 A. No. When I went to give the report only thing I
24 ask is we can maybe work out to find a nice house on the
25 beach or in the country for her.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 Q. Do they still use the cabanas for watching? Do
2 you know what I mean? Watches for --
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Do they still use the cabanas for watch?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Where do they use now?
7 A. We don't, you know, use anything. We are not
8 supposed to do have a situation like this on the base. If
9 something happen like this where stays, supposed to find
10 this place out of Fort Harrison or --
11 Q. So this was an exception?
12 A. I think, yes, it was.
13 Q. Why do you think they allowed this for Lisa and
14 no one else?
15 A. My -- what I think is we're supposed to be--
16 were supposed to be a cycle, like maybe one day, two days,
17 and she was fine to get auditing.
18 Q. But it didn't turn out that way.
19 A. No.
20 Q. So it was extraordinary?
21 A. Mm-hmm.
22 MR. STROPE: Nothing. Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.
24 MR. ANDREWS: Thank you very much.
25
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1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
2 STATE OF FLORIDA )
3 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
4 I, the undersigned authority, certify that
PATRIZIA STRECENER personally appeared before me and was
5 duly sworn.
6 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 9TH day
of April, 1997,
7
8
9
10 (signature)
Sandra A. Ambush, RPR, RMR,
11 Notary Public - State of Florida
12
13 (stamped seal)
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 REPORTER'S DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF FLORIDA )
3 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
4 I, Sandra A. Ambush, Registered Professional
Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did
5 stenographically report the statement of PATRIZIA
STRECENER; that a review of the transcript was not
6 requested; and that the transcript is a true and complete
record of my stenographic notes.
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I further certify that I am not a relative,
8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.
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DATED this 9th day of April, 1997.
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13 (signature)
Sandra A. Ambush
14 CSR, RPR, CMR.
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KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813)821-3320
