TRANSCRIPTION OF INTERVIEW
SHIRLEY "Dede" CAGE
CASE NO. CL 01-0002 SER. 29
CASE AGENT:
INTERVIEW: March 21, 1997 10:50 a.m.
PARTICIPANTS:
SC Mrs. Shirley "Dede" Cage
SF SA Sharon Feola Florida Department of Law Enforcement
GC Det. George Carrasquillo Clearwater Police Department
RC Ronald Cacciatore, Esquire, Attorney for Sharon Cage
SF: This is Special Agent Sharon Feola conducting an interview with
Mrs. Shirley Cage.
Present in the room is Det. George Carrasquillo, Clearwater Police Department
and Mrs. Cage's attorney, Ron Cacciatore.
Mrs. Cage, would you please your name, date of birth for the record?
SC: Shirley Cage, born X/49.
SF: Is thatX, 1949?
SC: Yes.
SF: I am a Statewide law enforcement officer and I am empowered to take sworn
testimony and I am going to ask to raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm
the statements you are about to make are the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help your God?
SC: Yes.
SF: I understand that your are currently employed by AMC Publishing Co.
SC: Yes, I am.
SF: And in what capacity?
SC: Sales Manager.
Interview - Shirley Cage
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March 21, 1997
SF: So your the manager of all the sales representative associated with -
SC: For Card Pack and magazines.
There's another sales section, that I don't have.
SF: How long have you been the manager?
SC: Since 1989 or 1991 when I first started.
SF: Is your husband also employed with AMC?
SC: Yes, he is.
SF: And he was also employed during the same time period?
SC: No. He only came to us when we moved here. Which was ... we're in our third
year here. I am not sure.
SF: So you and your husband relocated from what I understand the AMC Publishing
when they were in Dallas..
SC: Yes, I relocated. He joined when we moved here.
SF: What was your job position then?
SC: Ah, well I've had several different titles, but I am basically always managed the
same thing, I always managed the sales department. At that point, I also
handled personnel, treasury, just about all of the administrative functions as well.
SF: Okay. Did you have occasion to work with LISA MCPHERSON?
SC: Yes. She was, I, her boss.
SF: Did you know and work with LISA MCPHERSON when she first became
employed by AMC Publishing?
SC: Yes,I did.
Interview - Shirley Cage
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March 21, 1997
SF: Do recall the circumstances surrounding that?
SC: Oh, I'm sorry, did you say when she first
SF: When she was employed
SC: She was. She joined 88 or 89, she'd already been there a year.
SF: Okay. But you in essence her boss?
SC: Right.
SF: You supervised her.
SC: Right.
SF: Did you have a good working relationship?
SC: Oh, yeah. She was a long time friend.
SF: Okay. So you could say that she was a long friend.
SC: Yes. I've known her since 1979. We were friends when I came to
---------------------------
SF: So you knew her from 1979, Celebrity Center Dallas?
SC: Yes, I knew her from public there she and I had shared an apartment in '80, so
we known each other for a long time as well.
SF: So in essence, Shirley, I am going to assume that you knew her long before
Benetta Slaughter and Brenda Hubert and all the others employees at AMC
Publishing.
SC: I really don't know when they knew her from, she had worked for Benetta
Slaughter at an earlier company and she's very close with Brenda, a friend, just
like a sister, so I really don't know, Brenda probably met her around '79,
sometime as well, but she may have actually, I didn't know Brenda back then, so
I don't know if that's true.
Interview - Shirley Cage
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March 21, 1997
SF: Okay. So you worked directly with LISA.
SC: Right. Both in Dallas and Clearwater.
SF: Okay. What was the last contact that you had with LISA prior to her death?
SC: I saw her the day she left to go the trade show in Orlando, which was
somewhere around the first of November, I don't remember what the date is. I
saw her when she left for that show.
SF: And how was her behavior on that day?
SC: Fine. Her, they were packing things up, getting things together to take with
them, so I really didn't have any conversation with her, other then, be well, be
good, get lots done and see you later, that kinda of thing, so I didn't observe
anything unusual.
SF: Okay. How was LISA's behavior over, say the past or, the last year, during 1995.
How was her, did you notice anything different in persona.
SC: (laughing) She had a difficult year. A very difficult year. She had taken a leave
of absence from work.
SF: Do you recall when that was?
SC: Not to the specific day, when I can look back, you know in my records, to
determine ah, probably sometime in the summer because she had been back
with us, probably, she'd been back in my field area approximately ten months,
three months, so for, you know, November and then she had been back working
in another. division, a month or two bfore that, so I would guesstimate that she
probably had been back from leave, you know, sometime in June, the summer,
but I don't know the exact date.
SF: Do you know the circumstances surrounding that leave of absence?
SC: I know that she wanted to take a break, and get her life together. She had had
some upsets with her boyfriend and it had been causing her problems and she
wasn't feeling well at work. She just needed take some time to get her life
together. At the time she left, she had moved from my division, at that time, we
had just created our magazine and she moved from Card Pack Sales into the
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 5
develop this magazine department, so she was working right next door to me,
but she was working on a different project. So the time she actually took her
leave of absence, she wasn't working directly under me.
SF: Do you know where she was during that time?
SC: Ah, well, I knew part of the time she was at the Flag Land Base hotel, ah, you
know, during that time, at one point, evidently she had been living with this guy,
except she moved out of his apartment, put her furniture in storage and had lived
at the Bennetta's House, and had, staying around with her friends, and at some
point in there, she actually just checked into the hotel and then she came back,
and, you know, I don't how long she was there, but you know she had gone
there, I knew she had moved out from her boyfriend's house, she was sort of in
the air, she didn't go out immediately and get another apartment, you know she
was like -
SF: in transition
SC: Yeah, she was, well she said, she wanted to get her life together and she was
trying to figure out what she was going to do.
SF: Okay. I under
GC: Let me clarify something. Flag Land Base Hotel, -is that Ft. Harrison.
SC: Right
GC: or the Sand Piper, the Old Sand Piper, the old name?
SC: Ah, yea, I believe it's in the Ft. Harrison Hotel facility.
SF: Shirley, I, maybe you can help me clarify something we heard from a lot of
people that she had taken this leave of absence in July, to get her life together
and she was having some problems, but yes she was having some relationship
problems, but we understand she was the one that actually broke off that
relationship.
SC: As far as I know.
Interview - Shirley Cage
March 21, 1997
SF: And she was having some problems with her job, I understand, she was working
on the commission selling the pack.
SC: By the time she took leave, she was actually selling magazines
SF: Was that a commission
SC: hmhm (meaning yes)
GC: Yea, yea, because we want to get an idea of her daily routine and since you
were her immediate supervisor, you might be able to help us in that and, and I
understand she also went through a divorce when she was in Dallas.
SC: She was at what?
GC: Went through a divorce when she was in Dallas.
Hey, a long time ago.
GC: So the two situations would be similar. Breakup, employment, divorce, -- actually
the divorce maybe more severe than the breakup with the boyfriend. I am trying
to get an idea
SC: I don't think so.
She didn't like that husband too well.
SF: Which one are we talking about? Gene?
SC: G
GC: What I'm trying to do, can you tell me, were you her supervisor in Dallas also?
SC: Yea.
GC: Can you tell me what a working day for Lisa was in Dallas? She'd get in at wha
ttime in the morning?
SC: Ah, I don't know. Let me think back, their schedules differ. We had a change
when we moved here because we do telemarketing nationally, so we are earlier
Interview - Shirley Cage
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March 21, 1997
than everybody, so here we start at 9, I believe there we started at 8:30, it might
have been 8:00. I don't remember what the schedule was. It probably was 8:00
to 5:00.
GC: So she got in at 8 o'clock in the morning, or she got there before 8.
SC: hmmm, I don't recall her being an early bird, I think she's usually there around
right at 8.
GC: So, what she do, she walks in, take it from there.
SC: Ah, generally we came in at 8 and the sales people would get together with me
and we did drilling or training, go over things as sales people, I think would get
together, you know, pair off, practice handling things that people would say to
them, that they had trouble with, you know, how do you handle a guy who
doesn't want to talk to you, how do you handle a guy who says your product is
too expensive, that kind of stuff with each other, pick up, get from one another,
like what works for you, you know, and, or we would listen to tapes by sales
people like Tom Hopkins where you would pick up tips on how to deal with
people.
GC: How long did you do that?
SC: We did that about fifteen or twenty minutes each morning and she would go to
her office and she would you know figure out who she was going to call for the
day, like what we call naming, who you are going to go for. She would like go
through her, we have like a call rotation, like a computer. When we talk to
somebody, we note in there the next day we want to talk to them and then we
print out the week and you get a-
GC: Like a tickling system.
SC: Right. So she would look at her caller rotation to see who she needed to call
and then she would have a list of people who bought from her in the past. We
sell by state. So she would have a list of people for that particular state, that
were her prospects so she needed to get hold of. So she would like do what we
call plan out the day where she would name the people who she was targeting to
try and sell.
GC: So, how many would be targeted?
Interview - Shirley Cage
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SC: Number of people, we, however many people it took to get the number of sales
um....
GC: What sales were you looking for?
SC: She typically did, let me think, she was probably doing about twenty thousand
dollars in sales a week, not in Dallas, here, at the end, you know, obviously she
has gotten better through time
GC: What was she doing in Dallas?
SC: I realy don't know, lets see. Probably about twelver to fifteen thousand a week.
Hmhm - (agreeing)
SC: She may talk to, I mean she may call twenty-five people, eventually get enough
people on the phone to actually make two or three sales a day, to reach that goal
at the end of the week.
GC: So, she may have gone past 5 o'clock, if she hadn't reached the target
SC: No, no. She left at 5 everyday. (Laughing) She never, she's not one to put in
extra hours. She was very good at what she did. She generally didn't have any
trouble getting. She is like my No. One sales person.
GC: She sets up a pattern for today. About how long does that take?
SC: About ten - fifteen minutes.
GC: Then she finish that, she'd make the phone calls.
SC: hmhm
GC: Does she have the script to work on?
SC: No.
GC: So it was from the top of her head.
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March 21, 1997
SC: Right. Th-, we had, we had what we call "patters" that people trained off,
basically, it features the advantages and benefits of our product we present to
the person, and you know the sequence you get, I mean trained on those and
she had those as a background, you know, she had a frame of reference, but
she'd been doing this for, like since 1988, she knew it by heart.
GC: We are talking about Dallas.
SC: Yea. In Dallas. I mean when I came on, she had already been doing it for two
years, I mean, so she definitely knew everything about her product, everything to
say and she was the reason she was No. One, because she could talk to
anybody, you know,
GC: Very sharp.
SC: Very, sharp. Very humorous, you know, no matter what they said, she could get
them laughing, get them to talk to her, so she didn't have a lot of attention on
what she was suppose to say.
GC: Was her pay structure the same in Dallas as it was in Clearwater?
SC: Ah, no. No, for some time, it was, originally, ah, she was making fifteen percent
commission, when I first started and about a year or two, - I don't know, at
least a year before we moved her, their structure changed and it went to, I am
not sure, because I wasn't doing sales at the time, I don't know what it was, it
was probably, I don't know if it was ten or eight percent, but it went to a structure
where ah, they got the basic you know on each sale and then they got a bonus
on each sale
JC: Lets just stick with the Dallas. We're in Dallas. In Dallas she's making fifteen
percent.
SC: In the beginning.
JC: Okay.
SC: Before she left Dallas, at that time she -
Interview - Shirley Cage
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March 21, 1997
JC: I just want to know when she first started in Dallas, making fifteen percent, based
on the 25 thousand a week,
SC: Well, actually, based on the sales that she made that were actually paid and
mailed. Like she might make that many in sales and then ten percent would
drop away in cancellations before the guy actually paid for it.
GC: So, let me just finish this, but didn't you say ten percent, it was actually sales
made, not contacts.
SC: No-
GC: The front end was, The plan was 20 thousand dollars, but she might sold, that
maybe 10 thousand, when people came through with the, she will get paid on
the actual people that bought the product.
SC: She would get paid on the people actually paid for the product they bought and
actual did that mail in, so when the product was exchanged, they took it, they
paid for it, then she got her commission, paid on the first of day of each month.
SF: Just so we have an understanding, this card pack, packet of cards, that is mailed
out to a perspective clients. They pay for this card pack and this is what they are
paying for. You need to explain that to me.
SC: What she is selling, that, that card pack that you saw, each one of those cards in
there, is basically an ad placed by a marketer.
SF: Right.
SC: So what she was selling
SF: Is the packet?
SC: No that card, they are buying an ad, buying that card to put their ad on. So what
she is doing is calling saying, We're mailing this pack to all the life and heath
agents in the State of Texas. Do you want to recruit agents in Texas? Yes,
okay. Then you buy this card and you put your ad on it and it will go in this
packet to the agents and when they look through it, if they are interested in your
product, they'll call you.
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March 21, 1997
SF: Advertising?
SC: So she is trying to convince them to
SF: advertise
Not purchasing the packets.
SC: You mail the packet out free. It goes to all the agents free as a service to them
SF: So she really wasn't selling insurance, she was selling advertising?
SC: No, yeah, no we don't do insurance.
GC: Okay, now you said, while in Dallas, it sound to me like, the pay structure
changed and the reason I'm asking, I'm trying to see what kind of stress she is,
why she wants to make the much money. Obviously that generates stress with
somebody life. In Dallas, you said, the pay structure was changed to go to a flat
rate and then a percentage.
SC: Well, it's still a commission, but the commission rate changed plus the bonus.
GC: So, you, explain it to me.
SC: When we first started they were given fifteen percent commission off of
everything they sold. No question that. Okay. What happened for us is that
they started selling things way out in the future and not filling up each pack. You
know, each one of these packs has to go with certain companies. And, so we
kept working with them to keep them more focused on, handle this one before
you do the next one, and that never worked so then the pay structure was
changed so that they got a certain percent, I can't remember if that was eight or
ten, and then if they were at quota, had reached the number of the cards they
needed in their pack, then they got an extra percent, based on what the sliding
scale was. So that was done for about a year or two. And it was just too
complex, so probably within a year before we moved here, it was changed to just
ten percent on everything you sell and then there a bonus of five percent if each
one of those packs were at quota, so each time you know one of those that
make quota, then the person got an extra five percent on everything they you
sold.
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March 21, 1997
GC: And that quota would be time targeted sales number?
SC: The number of cards that, like, that figure is based on how many do we have to
sell, or to cover our expenses, so that we make a profit. - If you get it to what, you
know, what we call the break even point, then you get an extra point over that.
SF: Okay.
GC: And that was what she was getting at the time of her demise.
SC: Right. But I want to point out to you, Lisa made more money every year, every
year, regardless of what the commission basis was she always made more
money.
GC: That's what I wanted to ask you. I think she made like one hundred forty
thousand in `92,
SC: I don't know. I know she made, because she would tell me, you know, my goal
is this year, I want to break hundred thousand, finally at least, two or three years
before she got, but she was, I don't see how her paycheck. I knew because she
was telling me. I am going to break a hundred thousand and the next year I
going to break, you know, maybe a hundred and fifteen. So I knew at least two
or three years she -
GC: Did she create a lot of pressure on herself or was that the company gave her as
a target of twenty thousand her in Clearwater. Was she so driven that she
wanted to do thirty-five thousand a year?
SC: Well, let me back up. The company did not actually target her on what she was
going for. She targeted herself.
GC: When, when did that, because remember you said that when they sat down to
plan their day, they wanted achieve that target of monetary goal.
SC: Right. Let me explain the difference to you. What, what, what quota, a quota is
what she got to make in a packet in order, like I tell her, okay, in Texas I want
you to have ten cards, I need ten cards from you for your quota. So that means,
that's the minimum she needs to get in order to get the bonus.
GC: Okay.
Interview - Shirley Cage
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March 21, 1997
SC: (continuing) So that is assigned by the company based on each state based on
the viability of that packet, how much do we need to have in there.
GC: Yeah, but, was that, was that ten a week?
SC: No, no, no (both speaking) No, that is ten cards, no that ten cards for her in that
individual pack.
GC: Then it doesn't matter how long she takes -
SC: Well, yeah. `cause you see, we have deadline because that pack is set, like it
closes at a certain date and it goes to print. And then, another certain date, goes
to mail. She has to have all of her sales done by it times it closes to go to print.
But we start working on those like six weeks before that close date. So she's
working on a particular state for six week period and her goal is to sell at least
ten cards or whatever, it wasn't ten back then in Dallas, it was like five or six.
Ah, so whatever her number was, she had that six week period to get that done.
Ah, her target that she set was her game, she was targeting herself every week
to make more money then she made the week before.
GC: What I am getting at, you didn't tell that supervisor, I need you to make fifteen
cards this cycle.
SC: For a pack?
GC: For a pack.
SC: Not fifteen, we don't have any (laughter) that
GC: Okay, did you give her a number that you set as your supervisor, I want you to
make a number.
SC: Yeah. Each quarter, we print a list of all the states were mailed and each one of
those state is assigned the number. For this state, we got to have twenty cards
for this state, we have, it's based on the size of the state. My state gets twenty-
six cards, a larger state gets forty. And, so whatever the quota is for that state,
it's published, that is our quota, for each one of the people that has a sale, they
split that basically equally. So if there's like a target of forty for that state, my
Interview - Shirley Cage
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March 21, 1997
four sales reps, will target ten a piece to get ten cards into that pack by closing in
order to get-
GC: Will your sales people, lets say the target is thirty cards for Massapiequia people,
I mean Massachusetts.
SC: (laugh)
GC: Okay.
SC: Yeah
GC: Us three, she gets ten, she gets ten, I get five, do we all get our commission?
SC: As what?
GC: Because we didn't make the thirty. Thirty packs for that state. He gets ten, she
gets ten, and I make five. Does he still get his bonus and commission or not,
because thirty didn't go out?
SC: Okay. You get your commission on the sale regardless or whether the pack met
quota or not. I mean, that like, that's your pay. You are on commission, you get
that commission regardless of what shape the pack is in. The bonus is
dependent on, you know, they could, back then they could get it two ways. If
they were personally at quotas. So they, so her target was ten, then she got her
ten, even if the rest of the pack wasn't at quota, she still got her bonus. You
know, there was an additional bonus if the whole pack was at quota.
GC: You say back then. Texas.
SC: Hmhm (meaning yes)
GC: But that changed in Clearwater.
SC: Right. No, actually changed a year before we came to Florida.
GC: What is in Clearwater now.
SC: In Clearwater you get flat ten percent regardless of what the pack does. If the
pack is at quota, the number needed for that pack, the whole group is
Interview - Shirley Cage
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March 21, 1997
responsible for everyone who met their personal quota gets an additional bonus.
Now you can also, there's other things, like say the whole group didn't make it,
that you did really well, your quota was fine, and you actually sold ten cards, you
can put in a request to get bonus on that anyone because you did a stellar job.
So there's, there, they can address it,
GC: No, no, wait
SC: basically that way
GC: That's really a pressure cooker job. Getting to the point of making those sales,
that is being taken out of your -
SC: Well, it does, if your not good with people. (Laughter) If you get told No all the
day, and you've put in fifteen calls to the guys and they don't call you back.
Yeah, it can be, but Lisa loved it. Lisa loved talking to people.
GC: Well, then can you explain to me why her sales diminished?
SC: Because of her personal life.
GC: Okay.
SC: I can tell you I manage my people like artist. They are dealing with people that
don't see, some of them, most of them may never met, you now, and they are
like intruding in their day and trying to get them to sit and talk to them so they
can sell something to them. And then they are following up with them. And, its
like, its done purely, you know with their focus and their intention and how
creative they are with it. She was the best because she was very, very
humorous and, and very lively, and the people just loved her, you know, they
talked to her for forty-five minutes, and she would talking about hot dogs, and so,
ah, I forgot where I was going with this, oh, oh, anyway, the kind of thing, it, its
like, seems like, done, its an emotional kind of job. If you got things that are on
your mind, or problems where you are, you know, you got stuff happening
outside, you can't just totally be there and, you know, be listening to this guy
GC: It affects your sales
SC: It affects your sales instantly.
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March 21, 1997
GC: Let me ask this. Once I make a sale, for example I sell to Mr. Cacciatore, and he
renews. Do I keep getting commission
SC: Yes, he's your account.
GC: Once you have that account, you establish an account, and you renew, you get
that money automatically.
SC: Well every-time they buy a card.
GC: Based on existing salary, plus new sale?
SC: Hmhm (meaning yes)
GC: So she has, she has a clientele, where she has repeat business, kind of- kept her
sales up there.
SC: Definitely. Well, she was the original salesperson, so when she came into the
company, the guy who owns the company, had built, gave her his list, all of his
people. So she started out from the beginning with all the major marketers. As
new people came one, we got their leads from magazines and other sources.
Well, yeah
GC: Was that why she was shoulder and head above everybody else, with that base
to work from.
SC: Well, it was part of it, I mean she had good number of major marketers that kept
a lot of her business, but the main reason was her personality, and her ability.
She could talk a dead horse to life.
GC: Let me ask you this.
SC: (Laughter)
RC: Can we got to stop. (Turning tape over)
END TAPE 1, SIDE A
BEGIN TAPE 2. SIDE B
Interview - Shirley Cage
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March 21, 1997
SC: Remind me, along with the money, I want to make some stats, don't let me
forget.
GC: Alright. I'll write that down.
GC: Okay, we are back on.
SF: We are on.
GC: Okay. We were talking about the last thing we talked about were sales, and you
have a base, and you add to the base, but as her supervisor, you were her
supervisor, was your pay effected by her commission?
SC: No.
GC: So you -
SC: I was on straight salary.
GC: But if even all your people had terrible salaries, that commission didn't affect
your pay.
SC: (laughter) Well, it might not affect my pay, but it sure would have affected my
stature with my boss. Yes, I am very direct. There, there, there production is
what I am judged against. That's my product. My product is to keep them, you
know, at quota, and their stats on target. So now my pay didn't fluctuate, but I
would certainly be -
GC: Your job might be in jeopardy.
SC: (laughter) Well, not really. My boss would never fire me, but she would
definitely, you know, I would, I mean I would like work with senior management
to tackle the problem if it would get in the way of that, because that, their sales
are what fund our company. Because if sales don't happen, we would die as a
group, you know.
GC: So that's, that what I was getting at, I guess. So it was imparitive and important
for you to keep all your sales people operating on, you know, high efficiency
level.
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March 21, 1997
SC: Sure.
GC: And when Lisa started, started out having her problem, you noticed that right off
the bat.
SC: Well, she didn't really have problems to the point that, you know, yes, I did notice
them, but her production was so high, that even when she had problem, it was
not to, she was still above everybody else.
GC: But it wasn't her standard.
SC: It wasn't, the problem was with her, it -
GC: When did you notice that, at what time, give me a month and date where she
started falling back from her standard?
SC: (silence) Well before she moved to the magazine job, she, she was not, her
production had not fallen down, but she was having a problem with her posting.
GC: Give me a month and a date `cause I don't know when she moved to magazine.
SC: I don't either. Um, that, that was probably like May or you sometime in the
Spring, because that was before she left in June. She had been with the
magazine a couple of months before she left. I'd have to say, maybe May. But-
GC: May or April of 1995, would that be fair?
SC: Let see. When did she die: She died on a Friday
GC: December of 95.
SC: December of `95 She'd been with me, back with me about two or three months,
yeah, like, maybe a little earlier than that, it doesn't seem like enough time in
there to me.
GC: Is that when you started to notice the problems with her production?
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March 21, 1997
SC: Ah, no, I didn't. She came to me, I mean, her level of production was still quite
high. But she originated to me that she was having trouble doing that because it
sort of like with the game was over for her. She had mastered it.
SF: The challenge
SC: Yeah. She had, she was like the best, she was doing astronomical production.
Nobody could touch her. She was fine, but it, the, to her she, she played a game
all the time. Her game was always be better, better, and she just kind of got to a
point where she --
GC: She got bored, she got bored with it?
SC: Well, I don't know that she was bored because its a live interactive thing, but the
challenge to her, like she kind of, her drive is like, she was not pushing herself to
do more, because she was kind, it was old you know. That's why she actually
went to open the magazine. She wanted to do something different, something
new, something that would be a challenge for her again, because she had
accomplished, you know, she'd beat every record, she was, you know, she was
Number One. Ah, you know, so it wasn't a game for her, it wasn't, I mean she
was a very ambitious person, I think.
GC: Did she ever want to move up the structure, the corporate structure in the
company?
SC: Well, not, not really. She wanted, she like dealing with people directly. She
wanted to stay. Now from the magazine, her goal when she went to the
magazine was to manage that area, to be the salesperson, that establish the
clients for it and to actually manage, to make it like, it was going to be like her,
her division, or her branch.
GC: Something like you're doing with the card pack?
SC: Ah, no not really. Its a little different, you know, I'm much more focused on one
area. It, it's just it was a new, independent production that we were doing, and
she would have been eventually been like the editor of it and train other people,
she wanted to train people to be salespeople. So that was her, her goal there, to
sell and to take on the bigger game;
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 20
March 21, 1997
GC: One more question involving the company and then we will move on to Lisa's
personal life. Could you give me a structure of the company, because I've
talked to a lot of people and I really don't have an understanding. Is Bennetta
the president, or owner, or is Mr. Davis Slaughter the owner, president? Do you
vice-president, department heads.
SC: Dave and Benetta Slaughter and Jeff Shaftner are the owners. They are, you
know, the incorporated owners of the company.
SF: Who do you report to, Shirley?
SC: I report to Craig Burton (interrupted)
SF: Who is your immediate He's your immediate supervisor
SC: Hmhm (meaning yes). Now as, as a corporate structure, they don't manage the
company. You know, they manage each other, like if, like if, Benetta is the CEO
or Executive Director, she's the one who runs the day-to-day operation. If David
and Jeff are not happy with the job that she's doing, (laughter) as owners they
probably get together and work that out. But those guys as owners, don't
interject orders into the company. Their liaison is to her as the CEO and she is
the person in charge. She is over all divisions, you know, orders, issues,
anything like that has to be authorized through her, any changes in the company
operating basis are authorized by her.
GC: Okay.
SC: Under her are two, what you might call vice-presidents, Craig Burton, who is over
Sales, Administration, Personnel and Carol South whose over the actual
Production, Printing, Card Pack, Quality Control, and Treasury. Under them are
people who are over the individual departments. So, I am over the Department
of Card Pack and Magazines Sales, and you know there's another guy who is
over the Sell of List Sales.
GC: Who is that?
SC: That's Franz Reiter. And-a, then my husband is in a separate division for
Continuing Education courses. And so, you know there's people in charge of
each of those activities. I run the day-to-day activities in that area. I report to my
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 21
Marc h21, 1997
production and my stats, and, ah, you know, sub lines, and if they are not happy
about it I get (laughter) I give information but I am totally
GC: Under that level is just employees.
SC: Ah, well there -
GC: Any more management under that level?
SC: Well there's management, specific type functions, but basically the department
level is like the senior over that, like everything to do with Card Pack sales, and,
and Prospecting, and trade shows and things like that, that is all under me. I
have, you know, I have Ray who is my assistant and he does, you know, certain
activities for me.
GC: Hemphill, Ray Hemphill
SC: Yeah.
GC: You seem to know Lisa better than anybody else that we talked to so far, did you
do a lot of social things with her?
SC: No. But we interacted on a daily basis. (Laughter)
GC: Tell me about the status
SC: Oh, yeah, when, you know the comment earlier that obviously the money was a
stressful thing or that if she was making less money, maybe that was stressful. -
But for Lisa, it was actually status. She had a, ah, I mean her, we always
referred to her as the star, because that, that was actually the face she viewed,
she wanted to be a star, and she wanted to be the best in everything and she
always had a be Number One. If she had a week that was not totally not on par
or if they, she didn't have to be down, but if someone else had a real good week,
and got up close to her, that was like not okay, because she's the best. So her
main upset, ah, at that time, was not that she was making less money, but as
the, my guys, who had not been there as long as her, and if, you know, we were
down and coming up, and they were getting closer to her and that was a real
blow to her ego, to her, her greatest accomplishment in life was that she was
better than anybody. So,...
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 22
March 21, 1997
GC: She wanted to be King of the hill?
SC: Yeah, you know, yeah, you know
GC: Well, let me ask you
SC: We called it a star.
GC: Was she upset to the point that she might want to quit?
SC: AMC?
SC: No, No. AMC. She loved. Now, she did that is why she took a leave of
absence. A part of the reason why she took a leave of absence, she went into
magazine department, you know, that didn't go as smoothly as she thought it
would. Ah, not anything due to her, it was a new area, and they couldn't find
who was this that I needed to be talking to, so the sales didn't occur, the number
of people interested didn't occur, but I am sure she considered it a failure on her
part. And, so that was, you know that bothered her. She believed, you know,
that all she had to do was the same thing she was doing over her, go over her
and do it there and it would work. I didn't. And, so that was a problem, you
know, it was a disappointment. And, you now, I think, you know, and also I don't
know what she was making at that time, but I am sure that did have to change if
she wasn't, if she was making, you know, twenty thousand dollars a week in
sales at that time in the Card Pack, I don't know what she did in the magazine.
but I am sure it didn't compare. Now, you know, I don't think that, but, I mean
she always had total support, you now, I mean she, she could of taken advance
on her pay, she could have gotten a lot of you know, I don't think that was a
threat to her, I think it was probably-.
GC: That's interesting. Because if the finances was not a threat, she would have
been under stress. Now, I know that if I don't get my certain amount of money a
week, then I am stressed out. Now, if she has a good relationship with the boss,
then don't worry about it, you didn't meet the quota, but I am going to still pay
you.
SC: (laughter)
GC: Now, that should not be a
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 23
March 21, 1997
SC: Yeah, I mean, let me explain this to you. Lisa is a single girl, she'd been making
over a hundred thousand dollars for at least three years that I know of and was
probably making eighty, sixty years back. She had a car that was totally paid for,
she paid cash for it, but she had a bankruptcy with her divorce, so she had Jeep
Cherokee that she paid cash for, she bought all new furniture throughout her
entire house, every piece was knew when we moved her. She was fly to Atlanta
to go shopping, because Tampa didn't have the stores that compared to Dallas.
She would fly to Dallas to go country and western dancing because the people
out her, incidentally the people out her are not, the Dallas is the young, executive
type that are into country western, the people out here they are older. (Laughter)
She didn't like, there was only one crowd, she would actually fly home to Dallas
on Friday so that she could go meet her dancing friends.
GC: Well, how often did she do this?
SC: She would, well, she would probably to shopping on a dancing spree maybe
once, you know, I don't know, because she did it on weekends, so it didn't affect
the job, but I just, I know she maybe once every two months for sure, maybe
more, where she would just hop a plane and be gone and come back. Ah, you
know, I would know, because one day she would come in to work, and she'd
have these custom made dance shoes, they looked like boots, but they had a
smooth bottom. I'd go what is heck is that? She said I had it made so that I
could dance in them. Where do you dance in them? Dallas, you know. So, I
mean, so this is how I knew she was doing this fairly regular, and of course when
she was shopping, why even Benetta or Brenda may go with her, something like
that.
GC: So she brought a lot of custom boots and fancy clothes
SC: Well not fancy clothes, she was into
GC: expensive
SC: expensive, yeah. She was into the country look.
GC: And furniture, and a lot of her, well, to me, maybe you might know... What
happened to all the clothes, all the furniture,
SC: Her mother took it home when her
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 24
March 21, 1997
GC: Not
SC: Her mother came to town.
GC: Her mother came to town.
SC: Well, her mother was an alcoholic. (Laughter) And
GC: Did you ever meet her mother?
SC: Yes, I've met her mother and I've heard and I've heard her mothers
conversations on the phone, but I've known, because another girl who works for
me, a 24-year old girl, known Lisa since she was in high school, shared an
apartment with and my people went over and helped pack her stuff up and her
mother took every bit of the furniture back with her.
GC: Gloria Cruz
SC: Yes.
GC: What
SC: Nobody even around us could fit Lisa's clothing. Lisa was tall and skinny and
there's not even anybody in that knows her wear her clothes, know her clothes,
I've know her clothes were -
GC: I'm glad you brought up Gloria's name. How come Gloria and Lisa were
together?-
SC: Because Gloria is a single girl, and Lisa's a single girl.
GC: Making over a hundred thousand dollars a year, she still doesn't
SC: Never known Lisa to live alone -- Lisa does not like to be alone. She is a star,
she needs to be surrounded by people. She most of the time, and this was the
point I was going to make, that she bought a car, she had all the clothes she
could wear, she traveled, she did, you know, she ate out, never knew the girl to
cook, you know, she had money, she was buying IRA's every year, and you
know, sending money home to take care of her Mom and bailed her out. She
had nothing to spend it on, so she did whatever she wanted, you know. The
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 25
March 21, 1997
money, if she'd of dropped down to twenty-five thousand dollars a year, she
could have made it. Half of the time we've been here, she moved in, she lived
with her boyfriend, or she was a Benetta's house, you know, I mean, and when
she rented an apartment, she shared it with somebody, she couldn't have been
paying more three hundred a month on her rent.
SF: How about North Coachman, when she lived there?
SC: That, the probably when she moved to, when we first came out, that Terry Cates
was living with her. When we first moved, Terrie came out, Terrie lived in Dallas,
she only came out with us the first three months to get us through the transition
because she was a salespersons and if she'd have stayed we'd would have
crashed.
JC: Okay.
SC: She was with her the first three months.
JC: Let me back up a little bit and I want to make sure I got this correct. Your are
saying that she made a lot of money, but she spent a lot of money on herself.
SC: Yeah.
JC: And your saying that she lived really
SC: with other people.
JC: She lived a really luxurious lifestyle.
SC: I wouldn't call it luxurious and the furniture she bought for her apartment came
from ah, what's that, ah, it came from that little Bombay Trading Company, you
know, so I mean from what I've seen of it, Its more than I'd pay, you know, its -
JC: Did you see the clothes, you seen the furniture.
SC: Oh, sure, she wore the clothes to work.
JC: Did you see her give gifts, $1000.00 for somebody's birthday.
SC: No, I've never seen give, give gifts, I mean, she buy things
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 26
March 21,1997
JC: Well, this is, you know, we have access to her bank records, we subpoenaed
them.
SC: Well, I've never seen her give money gifts.
JC: Well, what I am getting at is, what you are telling me, is kind of leaving me
floored because, your checking account would say a lot about you.
SC: hmhm
JC: I can go up to your checking account and I can tell you what kind of lifestyle you
lived. And from all the records we've gotten, she was given at least seventy-five
percent of her income back to the church. So if she was making that hundred
thousand, she was living on twenty-five thousand a year. Twenty-five thousand
a year, you pay your rent, pay your food, utilities, I don't know even have the
money to hop a ride and go back to and forth on vacations, buy expensive
clothes, because you as a single woman, your talking maybe twenty thousand.
Its, its, -
SC: I never, yeah.
JC: Because all of her friends in Dallas when we talked to them, don't ever
remember seeing her out there.
SC: That's because the people that you are probably talking to are not her friends. I
never knew Lisa to go home and visit her family. I never knew her to, this aunt
that showed up to ever be in her presence. The most of time she didn't even go
see her mother, you know,
JC: Lisa, but she sent her money
SC: Well, when her mother would call and be picked up in the right time, be broke, be
sick , yeah Lisa sent her money, but she did not you know she loved her mother
and -
JC: (TALKING AT SAME TIME) It would be...
SC: but she didn't go visit her.
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 27
March 21, 1997
JC: It would be a check, right?
SC: I don't know how she would do it, I just know she would say, I've got to bail my
Mom out, you know.
JC: Maybe she told you that, and didn't send the money, because there were no
checks, and there were no wires to her mama.
SC: Well anyway
JC: Butthat
JC: I am just curious
SC: I know when we were in Dallas, her mother came to the office on several
occasions and got money from Lisa..
JC: Cash.
SC: Well, I don't know, because, I mean,
JC: Yeah.
SC: She'd take her to lunch, you know, and she'd come back and say, you know,
she's been doing really well, so I gave her some money so she could go
shopping. So I know so most of the time when she came to see her, you know,
that there was some money exchange going on. No, No, Lisa did not have
friends from Dallas, except for a few people, the people she went to Dallas, her
country and western friends and a couple of other friends that she probably
stayed with, but not her family.
GC: And
SC: And you know, right, in the last, I know when she took her leave of absence, you
know, she had a period of time where she was not making any money and, so
you know, when she came back, from the time she came back, when she didn't
go to Dallas for shopping for that time period but that like a special point in her
life. Part of that, you know, she did whatever she pleased, you know, I've never
known Lisa to have money problems.
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 28
March 21, 1997
JC: Do you have any more questions?
SF: Before you left Dallas, what was the reason that AMC left Dallas?
SC: Because we wanted to be in the area of the church, particularly for Lisa. Lisa is
actually the one who worked to get us to come out her. The, just to explain to
you, in Scientology, there are courses that are taught and they are available
(interruption)
JC: We have an understanding
SC: Okay
JC: We have an understanding.
SC: Yeah. Well, like, so like in Dallas, we attended a church there that was at a
certain level, well, Lisa
SC: Lisa had worked on staff there, from when it was a mission, so she had done all
the services they've done at that level, then they moved up a classification, she
had done all those, so for the last two years at least, she'd been flying out her to
these services that are only available out here. And of course when she did that,
she'd take a leave of absence for five or six weeks, and be out here and all the
time be out she'd not be making any money, you know, so we had, and we were
having to deal with that at work and I had three other people that were at that
point. They got together and decided we could all save a whole lot of money,
save a whole lot of time, if we lived out here so they could go there at night and
not to have to take off work to do it. And, so those of us who moved out here,
the fourteen of us that came from Dallas, which was everyone except two
married people who had husband there and couldn't leave were all Scientolgist
and at some point in time intended to do services here. So, of course there was
a secondary owner, reason, that two of the owners wanted to have a boat
(laugh), and they didn't have a place to have a boat in Dallas, they were happy
to come here and be able to have a boat. We were happy to come here be able
to do services and not to have to interrupt our lives.
GC: That makes sense.
SC: You know, and that's why, you know, when you say she spent tons of money
there, those are not contributons, those are payments for services she was
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 29
March 21, 1997
doing. Some of them are, there, I know, I know for sure because she told me
she'd done over like a few thousand dollars to the Winter Wonderland, that was
her project, but at the time I don't think she had the money because she had not
been working, but she did it to set a standard to others, she felt like she could go
out and try to convince them to make donations if she had not
GC: Led by example?
SC: Hmhm, but you know for sure the money, ever since we've moved here, she
had continuously been on course or been receiving auditing and so most of that
money was paying for services that she was doing and she was getting
something back that she wanted.
GC: So it wasn't the donations, it was the services she received.
SC: Now, I'm saying, there's probably some of those in there that she just donated
because all of donations to general causes but most of the money are for
specific services she did.
SF: Okay. The question to ask Shirley, was that the status quo for Scientologist to
be constantly in continuingly involved in taking these course or was Lisa an
exception to that rule, or was, is that a normal action by a member of the church.
SC: Well, yeah.
Involved so many course and wanting to get up the bridge so fast?
SF: Well, you have to understand, like with Baptist, Catholics and all religions, there
are different things for different people, you know, different folks,
SF: Strokes for different people
SC: I would say the normal Scientologist who has experienced tremendous personal
gain from the counseling, and training that they have done, it is the most
important thing in their lives. And I'm a perfect example, my husband is a
personal example, when you are talking about, life on a spiritual plain, you know,
it can be important to you to have a big home, nice clothes, lots of money, and
investments, and you can be worried about whats going to happen to you when
you die. (Laugh) You know what conditions are you going to be in as a spirit
and you know to me thats the most important and if I have to spend a lot of
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 30
March 21,1997
money right now to get that personal certainty and happiness and control that I
can do whatever I want to with my life, I'll make the money later, you know. For
her definitely. You know, and I know that she and I were both on staff when it
was a mission and then when it was a church in Dallas and she and I both went
into the SEA organization, and I consider she and I both are like, the totally
dedicated brand that if we believe that if you are spending your money on things
that are going to rot in five years and not on yourself, you are probably making a
mistake. Now she was not different but definitely
SF: Excessive?
SC: No, I think she had more freedom. She was a single person, everything she had
was paid for, you know, she wasn't worried about the future, she could afford to
put all of her money back on the bridge or do courses. I can't. I have a husband
and a house, I didn't make as money as she has for a long time, but I just
spared eleven thousand dollars myself, you know, for thirty-five hours of
counseling and if I had another eleven thousand handy I'd of gone back the next
week for more, you know, my husband and I are (interruptions)
GC: And were not judgment in your lifestyle you know
SF: That's for your own
SC: I am trying to give you a frame of reference of why, you know, for her that would
have been the most important thing.
SF: That was my question.
GC: I have to thank you because you have the clearest person to explain things to
me.
SC: (laughter) Well I'm glad to hear that because I usually talk to much and confuse
people.
GC: Oh, no, you are doing a good job of telling us how to get a better understanding
what we need to understand.
GC: Let me ask you this, do you know anything regarding you regarding the care
provider for Lisa during November 5- December 6, 1995?
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 31
March 21, 1997
SC: I never saw her after she came back from the trade show, and, you know, so I
have no idea, but I do know that she had checked herself into the hotel before,
like I said Lisa was not a domestic person who could, you know, (interruption)
GC: Are you saying that after November 18th, she checked herself into the hotel, you
know about that? That's what I am talking abut.
SC: I knew about that after the fact, I knew she had gone from there. I didn't see her
or talk to her or know anything specifically about the care she received.
(Interruption)
GC: Do you know
SC: But I know she would go there whenever
GC: Do you know of anyone that went down there to see her?
SC: Hmmm, No, can't think of anybody saying that they actually did
GC: Were you requested to write a report?
SC: On her being down there? No.
GC: On her behavior prior to that?
SC: No.
GC: Did you have any contact with her when she got back from Orlando.
SC: No, not directly.
GC: Do you have any knowledge of the accident that she was involved in?
SC: I was told about it, but after the fact. And I also got a call from the guy that she
apparently hit. He called to offer, trying to find out about her insurance. Thats
how I found out that she had actually hit somebody. When he called trying to get
her insurance then I knew an accident had occured, but I didn't know the details
of it.
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 32
March 21, 1997
GC: Did you have an occasion between November 18, 1995 and December 5,1995
to transport Lisa back to her apartment, pick up stuff?
SC: No. That's November, that is the time, before she died? Now, I never saw ever
she came back from Orlando. They came back late that night and the next
morning, she had the accident and then went into the hospital for whatever
GC: Do you know she if she took her car to Orlando, or did she ride with somebody
else?
SC: I know she rode back with somebody else, ah, I'm assuming she didn't, usually
they went as a group, you know. I know she came back with Brenda. I didn't
actually see what she left in. Ah, she would not have gone by herself. She
would have definitely ridden with someone, but could have taken her car I don't
think so.
GC: No more questions.
SF: (Sound to low to hear)
RC: Can we stop for a second?
TAPE TURNED OFF
GC: OKAY, WE ARE BACK ON.
SF: Shirley, what is your understanding or where were you, do you recall where you
were when you were told that Lisa had died. Do you recall the circumstances
surrounding that?
SC: Ah, yeah. David Slaughter came to me in my office and said that Benetta had
requested me to come down to Ft. Harrison to see the Chaplain. No, he actually
said, Go to Ft. Harrison and I thought that was kind of weird. I kept asking him
(laughter) well, what, are you setting me up here, what's the deal in this. He
said, well, you know, that I just want you to come down to speak to the Chaplain,
and so I went down there. Just as soon as I saw him, I realized something is
wrong here and of course I didn't expect him to tell me Lisa was dead. I just,
expected maybe she had gotten sick, something had gone wrong or she was
having trouble, so the Chaplain actually took me to a room and told me she had
died.
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 33
March21, 1997
SF: Over all the years you've known Lisa, Shirley, what would in your, what do you
think would predicate, you know, a psychotic break,
SC: Well, you have to understand Lisa, perhaps (laugh), very bad childhood,-
SF: We understand that.
SC: And her, the influences of that were with her all her life and I mean her mother
the only left, the mother would still be constant influence, but she personally was
never good enough, you know, even as a child she was totally ignored, abused,
treated awfully, and no matter how smart the girl was, or how beautiful, or how
popular, or how talented, she was never good enough
SF: For the star?
SC and, and that's how as a child especially, I mean she'd gotten the attention when
she was so clever and witty, could dance, as an adult, that continued as her
main workable actions, she was an entertainer, you know, everybody loved her
and everybody was charmed by her and that's how she felt good. She was
always the center of attention, but you know she, I mean she had that, conflict
going on there. But also she was very, almost, you know, I don't want imply
anything, almost just driven to have, she wanted to have a marriage, and a
husband, a life that she never had a kid. She wanted to have a family. And she
had gone through like three, not good relationships, you know. And she met
this guy here she thought that was it, he's the one, we're going to do it, you
know, and she moved in with him, and it didn't work to well, she wasn't real
happy, and there was this thing, and it went through this thing, of trying to be
something else, all of a sudden instead of wearing country and western, dressing
in denim, she decided she had to be sophisticated, and classy, and she wasn't,
you know, sophisticated enough, all this stuff. And so anyway, that did not go
well and when she moved out with him, she was very upset and very disturbed,
she moved her stuff into storage and stayed with Benetta, you know, and then
she got back together, but she'd come to me, I don't know when, but not too long
before all this happened, she gotten back together with this fellow and they were
going to get married, she actually announced it to everybody, we are going to get
married in December and that she had the ring, and then like a week later, it was
over. And, I felt personally (laughter) that was probably the biggest loss in her
life, especially after having gone public, you know, everybody was kind lake, you
know, are you sure want to do this, you shouldn't have to work this hard to be
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 34
March 21, 1997
happy. Maybe this is not right she went ahead and did it anyway, then she was
wrong and I think it was very embarrassing, for her to have done it again, you
know, sort of picked the wrong man, you know, invested time and money into
him. And then also, you know, she did some things, she went out to lunch, she
asked to go to lunch with my husband and asked what do you do to make a
relationship work, you know, I didn't know then that they had separated but when
I found out, I could see she was like really stuck on what am I going to have to
do to make this happen. So. I the combination of that major losses obviously, if
you knew Lisa, you know, men were real important to her, not that she was
promiscuous or anything, just having a boyfriend was very important. I think the
loss of that, the loss of stature for herself, and not being able to accomplish what
she set out to do, the magazine project, she had to, she had to be very humble
whenever she came back, and then I have to believe, Okay, I want to do, but I
couldn't afford put her you know into the card bank, where she could mess up a
lot of people so I know she was there, she started out prospecting area,- which is
like a beginner area, she worked through that, and worked out to getting
comeback into the card pack again. That was, you know, that was a big thing for
her to humble herself to the point, you know, I want to prove, you know, I can do
this now, and then whatever may have been going on at the time with her family
or herself personally, but for sure, ah, you know, she
END OF TAPE
SF: I have one more question. With her going up through the bridge, you know,
would this an attempt for Lisa to try to get rid of all this baggage she had carrying
through life.
SC: I have no idea. You know, most of us do it from the point of view that there is
laid out, ah, rating stature of knowledge and understanding that one gets, you
know, and obviously you have to address your own life, and your own
considerations as you do that. Most of us are just going through target of getting
there, but yes, the thing that is handled is all of the sorrows and losses, and
upsets, confusion, and things that get in your way. I have no doubt that she had
a major desire to clean up what was obviously a very big mess in her life.
SF: Now she had invested all this money or she obviously was mentally and
emotionally involved in her church studies and she reached a point where she
felt perhaps she should have been rid of all of this and she realized, I'm not,
could have added to her mental state at that time because she had gone Clear
to prior to the November situation.
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 35
March 21,1997
SC: I don't know about that because Clear is like one attainment and above that is a
whole lot more.
SF: Right.
SC: Its a very major, major attainment.
SF: Right.
SC: But its not the end goal. Its actually sort of the beginning -
JC: of the end
SC: It's note it's the beginning, its just the person is now just prepared to the point,
that they can start.
SF: Okay.
SC: Because for her to, you know, she had some misgivings about that, ah, that
would be real unusual because she was very well-trained in what was ahead of
her. And that was her reason for moving her so she could do those things. So
she could do those levels above it.
SF: Okay.
SC: Now I do know she did tell me that, that she felt that she had discovered that,
you know, that she needed to be more responsible, that she had not, one of the
things she realizes that she could be bigger and better and take, do more in this
world than what she had, but that was not given to me from the point of view of
being disappointed about not having done it, but from having gotten the
viewpoint that she now could do it, so, no, I got no indication whatsoever that
was a, that was like a major goal to get to there, for now she could do the rest..
GC: Excuse me, stop for a second. TAPE TURNED OFF.
BACK ON AGAIN:
GC: You said they called you from the show. I am assuming that was the show
convention over in Orlando.
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 36
March21, 1997
SC: Hmhm.
GC: Who called.
SC: Well, the first call, of course, this was a long time ago, I believe the first call that I
got was from Craig and he told me, ah, I don't remember his exact words or
anything, I'm not quoting him, but basically ah, that he was concerned that Lisa
was acting kind of weird. And I questioned him how weird (laughter), you know,
because these are my clients that she over there with, you know, she's a very
outgoing, public person, so you know might think, she's weird anyway. But, you
know, who I am, my impression was beyond that. He said, well, he didn't really
you want to put that on me, because I was not there, and just going to keep an
eye on Lisa, she was definitely acting weird. But I needed to know if she had
done something, you know, that would embarrass the company or jeopardize the
clients or something, oh, no, no, just, she's just acting real weird. Then later
Brenda told me ah, that
GC: Did she also call you from Orlando?
SC: I can't remember if she called or she told me the next day when she was back.
She may have because the decision was made to bring Lisa home before the
show was over and probably she did call me to see if that was okay, whatever,
because I know Brenda and Lisa came back early.
GC: Whose decision, you say the decision was made to bring her home early, whose
decision was that?
SC: Probably mine. I mean she probably asked me if it was okay that they left.
GC: Would they call Katie Chambler.
SC: No, they might have, but I don't know why they would. Katie was not over here
or anything, but I mean they didn't tell me.
GC: Did you direct anyone to write a report on her,
SC: I don't think, you asked me if anybody needed to write a report. Ah, I don't think
so, because she came home that night and the next day she had the car wreck,
and she was out on leave again, and it was being handled. Ordinarily that
something I do, is there any kind of flaws, or upset, or confusion, I asked
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 37
March 21, 1997
everybody to write up what happened and give it to me so I that I can get the
data. But I don't believe I did on this one because, I mean, she was already in a
goal, and I figured she had been taken care of.
GC: Last question. Do you now what a "Introspection Rundown" is?
SC: Yeah.
GC: Is that what was occurring with Lisa?
SC: (interruption by GC) I have no idea what
GC: Let me rephrase that. Was she in the prep mode before an introspection
rundown?
SC: Well, that would be, that would be personal, that would be something she
wouldn't tell anybody anyway. As far as I know, she wasn't doing anything after
finished Clear, which is several weeks before when she had gotten her
certification on that. Her plans were to do some training, is what she told me.
Her next thing was going to do, I didn't think she was doing anything.
GC: You've been a Scientologist, how long?
SC: Since 1979.
GC: And I've spoken to other Scientologists for the same duration and I've been told
that when somebody got a psychotic break, the way they deal with the person
get prepared, according to Introspection Rundown and then they go ahead and
instead of giving you electric shocks to the brain and giving you drugs, and
things like that, they give you what is known as an introspection rundown. I am
not condemning it, if it works, its great. Was that what was going on here, do
you think from your personal point of view
SC: No, not at all. For one thing, they absolutely cannot take a person into auditing
session if they are sick or ill in anyway. For instance -
GC: Correct. That's why they have to prep, that's why they give vitamins, that way
they clean you out, get you ready, prepared, they are, preparing you for your
introspection rundown. I didn't say to you was there an introspection rundown,
was she being prepared for the introspection rundown.
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 38
March 21, 1997
SC: Well, to begin with, you know, I say the introspection rundown is a particular
rundown to address basically a person who like thinking, you know their worried
about what is going on in their head and they're interesting, extrovert, they want
to talk to people, and have they, they are all stuck on, you now the things they
are thinking about and so that helps him get over that. That is, that is somebody
chooses to do, you know, based on what turned up when they go. This is an
area that I want to address, you know, I had a bad father, I keep thinking about
the things he said, I don't want to do that anymore, so let me do that. Its not
done, as far, as far as I know anyone I've seen, as a handle for someone who
had a break. The only thing I've ever seen of a person who has that, is they are
given rest and no disturbance. Just let them, go to bed and eat good food, take
a walk in the fresh air and don't feel there is any problem, just relax
GC: Okay, no communication.
SC: until, well they can communicate, not read the newspapers, not read (???) the
TV, you know, you hear the worlds dying, people are starving, nothing that would
upset them all, just let them get calmed down, just let them get out whatever had
gotten them upset and relax and come back to themselves so that they focus on
whats going on and not being locked into what is going on. That's the only thing
that I've know of that been through that. Now after a person has done that, there
is various process that one can do, address, why did that happen to you, why did
get out of control like that, but I can't imagine something that it would be desired
or intended to try and do. I tell you, how healthy you have to be, I just finish
some and I'm in good health, I had to sleep ten hours a night, I would take tons
of vitamins just to be
GC: Did you go thru introspection rundown
SC: No, No, it was a different kind of
GC: another rundown
SC: Its just the physical condition you have to be in to be able to do that. Because
you have to be top health. Your weak or rundown in anyway, your body doesn't
metabolize, the machine that's used to measure the electrical forces around you
won't do it, so like I say I had the flu like a month ago and just the rundownness
that I had from the flu, I was, you know I had to
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 39
March 21, 1997
SC: No, I did it, but I mean I had to like, nap everyday-- I had to go bed at night, took
tons of vitamins, you know, I really had to work to be physically up, so that I was
register on the meter. Somebody who had, you know, gone through an upset
he had and been out for any length of time you are looking at a long time before
that person can be physically up to do it. She had not time to do that.
SF: Let me ask you this, Shirley. You said that you didn't think Lisa was engaged in
anything after she obtained the state of Clear and that she was going to go
through some training type stuff.
SC: Instead of the counseling
SF: What is exactly, because we know she went through the Sunshine Rundown.
SC: Well, that is the immediate follow-up is down after, like when you do the Clear
process. there is a little bitty process after that, that gets you to the point by now
you know where you are going to go with that.
JC: To move up-
SC: Yeah
JC: To move up to the OT level
SC: Well, no, to address life, because you just discovered a whole new aspect of
yourself. That you are not just a body, you are a spiritual being, you know. You
have more to you than just what your body does. So, the Sunshine Rundown is
designed for you to refocus on what are you going to do.
JC: Well
SC: But that done in conjunction, there done one right after the other so that's true
she did that, but that's a wrap up on the first part.
JC: When you Clear does that mean you have gotten rid of all your bad operating
thetan,
SC: (laughter) There is not a lot of bad operating thetans, there's only you, there's
only you, theres only you.
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 40
March 21, 1997
JC: I thought we were made up of a cluster
SC: No, and I don't want to get to technical here,
JC: I'm trying to understand that, that's why
SC: Yeah, well, Clear addresses your first time in. You as a being have many
dynamics, yourself, is first, your family is second, your group, your church, your
company, your friends, your social organizations, their your third dynamics.
Fourth dynamic is all mankind. It goes on to the plants and animals, and rocks,
but you don't have to give, most of stay focused pretty much on to the four. So
Clear addresses ah, things on your first dynamic, basically have you interact with
your body, because you as a being, you know, have a body, and you pick upset
and problems with the body, it addresses first dynamic problems and that
basically why that's done. They are talking about Thetans, its not like -we think
we have a bunch of different people, there's only us, there's me, that, that, who,
that, I am a Thetan, that's me. But in life, people are exposed to all other people
and they have personalities, you now, those personalities are like what we call
valance , its a set of attitudes. Like for instance, my father was a big mean,
nasty old crazy man, you know, he had a personality package as always being
gruff, always being nasty, always thinking everything was going to be bad,
nobody was any good. That his valance. The valance describes that set of
characteristics that he is liked. Because I was so closely associated with him all
my life, I tend to pick up some of his valance, I tend to do things sort of like what
he does. That's not me. That's me dramatizing things I picked from him, I
absorbed from him. Doesn't mean I have a part of his personality in my body,
there's another being, you know, bugging me, but I do things in life like what he
did. I don't particularly like that, don't want to be like that, and I want to separate
that out. I want to see what's him.
JC: We say we are a result of both our parents.
SC: Right.
JC: And we would say, you know, my life today is a result of my past experience.
SC: Right.
JC: Basically the same.
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 41
March 21, 1997
JC: Do you have any more questions.
RC: One of the things you told me that was particulary interesting, I've been there so
often, I can't promise you if they've asked this, but some other client but I think
they did. I was surprised when you told me that you had ah, signed a pledge to
be whatever its called, with the church and you were in SEA org and left.
JC: The billion year contract.
RC: So just tell me about that, maybe that will clear up one of the questions they've
asked.
SC: Okay. Ah, Well, not really (laughter) sure.
RC: When was it that you joined that you joined SEA Org and signed the Billion Year
Contract.
SC: Well, I went into SEA Org, I had already been on staff in a mission for four years.
Okay. And, so, so I've already like you know that's all I've been doing like a full
time job. Like a nun or priest, all I do is try and teach and help people get that.
SF: Like a lot of them you see here.
SC: Right. These are all staff members, they, their full time job, their like employees
of the church, ministers whatever, doing their job. So then I decided that I
wanted to go into the SEA Org because the SEA Org is a fraternal organization
that manages the upper levels of Scientology, like this facility, the one in LA. At
your other levels, the churches, they are just employees. People sign five year
contracts and they work for that particular entity. The SEA Org is dedicated to
presenting, and preserving the philosophy and bringing it forward, their making a
lifetime dedication.
SF: Billion Year Contract.
SC: Right. As I explained to him, as long as I claim him, (laughter) the Billion Year
Contract, obviously, it is not enforceable contract, its a personal commitment for
you to go in, for you to go in and take on this job, you personally have to be at a
point that you can say and you can pledge to your teammate, I intend to do this
forever. Not just this lifetime, but forever. Thats where you get into the billion
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 42
March 21, 1997
years, you know. But that's a personal commitment, that's not actually you
know, a contract.
GC: a contract
SC: Right. As long as it takes to make this planet sane without war, without crime,
without drugs, that's what I am going to do, that's my goal. I'm going to come
back, come back until its done. And I don't care about how much money I make,
or any of the other things, you know, I want to have a decent life and be
supported and all that's why I am coming, my goal. If you have to be able and
really to say that before you go in. That doesn't mean that once you get in,
other things come up, and so after two years, I left, you know. I left majorly
GC: Did you have to pay back the courses you took during that time?
SC: Part of your contract is based, just like with him, like all the others, its a five year
contract. Basically what you are saying is you will stay on the job at least five
years. If you do that, they will let you do all of the training and auditing that you
want absolutely free. That's your exchange. But you have to stay five years to
get it. Now if you leave before that five years is up, you owe pro-rated amount,
you know, so like I stayed for two years so ah, 20 percent, for your two years life,
whatever percentage of that, that would be 20 percent so, forty percent of my
bill, they forgave because I have earned it, I've been there two years. Yes, I do
pay them back the sixty percent that I didn't earn because I didn't stay a full five
years.
SF: And that's probably exactly happened to Lisa when she went to California, gave
the billing your contract, then she came back, back to Dallas, and owed her
credits for the time she didn't fulfill the contract.
SC: Why, I don't know that she owed any, she probably did owe, because I don't
think she was there that long, she wasn't there as long as I was. And I was very
well, I was extensively trying so I have quite a bit.
SF: A bill.
SC: Hmhm. But I think, because all I knew, was when I saw her and she was
working on paying the debt from her marriage. She ended up taking
responsibility for the bills when she divorced Gene.
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 43
March 21, 1997
GC: Can I ask what level you are at.
SC: I am at the beginning. (Laughter) On, there, when you say that, there is a
(interruption)
GC: You are still at the beginning, after Clear?
SC: No, no, I am not Clear.
Your are on a Grade.
SC: I'm on Grade Zero. You have to understand that bridge, you probably seen a
copy of the Bridge that has all those laid out. That the standard path. When a
person comes in and they
GC: You can go on either side of the chart.
SC: See I've done a lot of different stuff because I was in a staff
On the other side
GC: You were on the other side.
SC: So I've had a lot of auditing, a lot of training that's geared to my personal
situation or to the job I am doing. So, you know, its not that I have received any,
but I have just started that I just did was to get me ready to do Grade One, which
is the second step, you know, most people go through. You have to understand,
you know-
GC: Can you do auditing?
SC: I can some, I'm not, I'm pretty much administrative train, I'm not, you know a lot
learn how to run business, and a lot of people want to learn how to audit, so I've
done much of that, but I do, ah, what is called __________________ directly from
the Dianetics book. It's not done with the meter I've not done any of the
technical training in dealing with operating a meter.
SC: My position has always been administrative, so I've never like taught courses, or
actually audited people. That's where my training is
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 44
March 21, 1997
SF: Is that a goal that you have
SC: Yeah, yeah. I've done almost, I've learned just about everything I can learn on
the administrative side, so now my next side is to learn the other side because I
have a family. I want to be able to audit. I have a mother I've bringing out here
three back surgeries who would be vastly helped. You know having some
counseling and yet afford to pay for it for her but I could learn it and do it for her.
SC: But Lisa. I think was the same. I think most of her training was administrative I
don't think she was ever in the tech, so that why she was, her goal was to get up
to Clear and try and get herself kinda oriented, and you know be with it and then
go in and do the technical training and while she do the other stuff.
SF: Okay. Would the OT having, have a lot anything to do with her wanting to go to
the technical area.
SC: The only thing OT having address you, you know. It addresses you as a being,
you know, how are you dealing with life. Are you dealing with life as a being,
dealing with life as the victim
SF: She was assigned and had taken that class prior to go to the Orlando seminar.
Is that a auditing session
SC: No that is a course.
SF: Okay.
SC: That's where you read a book, and you listen to tapes and you do drilling, its not
just a one, its a lot of them.
SF: Okay.
SC: There's like many courses and their dealing with different subjects, like how to do
your finance, how to deal with personal relationships,
SF: So maybe, perhaps that's what she was getting into?
SC: I think (laughter) I think men were her downfall and the things she wanted. Not
just men, but relationships. I don't think she had. You know, up to this day, you
know, every week, I get clients of hers that ask me or mention her, that's how
Interview - Shirley Cage
Page 45
March21, 1997
well remembered she was. I had a guy here from Texas last week, took me to
dinner and the first thing he did was I want to do a toast to the one that is not
here. A year a half later, a guy who only dealt with her four times a year, you
know, over the telephone, it still sad, because she's gone. This girl had
everything she could want except that you know the ability to have a family and -
SC: Husband and a good man, personal happiness for that particular goal. But as far
her work, her community, you know, there are probably more people in town who
know her, the people who have lived here for fifty years, that just the way she
was.
GC: Anything else. This conclude the investigation at 12:10 hours.
