1
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
IN RE:
INVESTIGATION
________ ORIGINAL
STATEMENT OF: SUSANNE REICH
DATE: September 25, 1997
TIME: Began:B1:55 p.m.
Ended: 3:00 p.m.
PLACE: Criminal Justice Center
Office of the State Attorney
Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida
REPORTED BY: Ruth N. Martin, CSR, CP, RMR
Registered Merit Reporter
Notary Public
State of Florida at Large
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
Office of the State Attorney
3 Criminal Justice Complex, Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida 33760
4 Attorney for State of Florida
5 JOHN F. LAURO, ESQUIRE
John F. Lauro, P.A.
6 Barnett Bank Plaza, Suite 3950
101 East Kennedy Boulevard
7 Tampa, Florida 33602
Attorney for the Witness
8
ALSO PRESENT:
9
LEE STROPE, Special Agent
10 Florida Department of Law Enforcement
11 WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
City of Clearwater Police Department
12
13
14
15
16
17
18 INDEX
PAGE
19 EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. McGARRY 4
BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE 34
21 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS 46
22
23 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 63
24
25
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1 The deponent herein,
2 SUSANNE REICH,
3 being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
5 examined and testified as follows:
6 MR. LAURO: Let me state on the record that
7 my name is John Lauro. And I represent Miss Reich.
8 And she's testifying today pursuant to a
9 subpoena that's been issued by the State Attorney's
10 Office. And I've explained to Miss Reich the
11 protections that are afforded by that subpoena, and
12 she's testifying under that understanding.
13 Let me also say that as you can tell, her
14 first language is not English, so we may need to just
15 go a little slow in terms of questions.
16 MR. McGARRY: Okay.
17 MR. LAURO: I think we'll get through it.
18 MR. McGARRY: I've had some practice with
19 that.
20 MR. LAURO: I think her English is excellent
21 compared to my German or anybody's German, and I don't
22 think we need an interpreter, but if we proceed slowly,
23 that would be the best way.
24 THE WITNESS: And if I don't understand
25 something, I will let you definitely know.
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1 MR. McGARRY: Okay. Thank you.
2 EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. McGARRY:
4 Q. Would you state your name for the record, please.
5 A. State my name?
6 Q. Please.
7 A. My name is Susanne Reich.
8 Q. My name is Mark McGarry. I'm a prosecutor. And
9 I'm currently investigating the circumstances surrounding
10 the death of Lisa McPherson back in November of 1995.
11 I'm going to ask you some questions, because
12 apparently you have some knowledge about those
13 circumstances. Okay?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If I could, I'd like to get some background on
16 you.
17 Your date of birth is?
18 A. X, `49.
19 Q. Okay. And you are not -- are you an American
20 citizen?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. You're aX citizen?
23 A. I'm applying right now for my Green Card.
24 Q. You're applying for it?
25 A. Uh-huh.
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1 Q. How long have you lived in Clearwater?
2 A. Since May, `90.
3 Q. `90?
4 A. Yeah. -
5 Q. And where did you live prior to that?
6 A. I lived in X.
7 Q. And why did you come to Clearwater?
8 A. To be a member of Church of Scientology and work
9 here in Florida.
10 Q. All right. And were you a member of the Church in
11 Germany?
12 A. Oh, yeah.
13 Q. When did you first join the Church?
14 A. I joined the Church in December, 1987.
15 Q. Okay. And was it at their request or your request
16 to come and work in Clearwater?
17 A. My request.
18 Q. Your request?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Okay. Were you a Staff member when you were a
21 member in X?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. Were you just a parishioner?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. When you came in 1990 to Clearwater, did you
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1 immediately come on Staff, as a Staff person?
2 A. Yeah. I was already here in `89 for the first
3 time, but-on Staff I started the first time in `90.
4 Q. Okay. What was your position when you first came
5 to Clearwater?
6 A. I was here to receive services myself.
7 Q. Just services for yourself?
8 A. Uh-huh. I was here in `89.
9 Q. Okay. And as a Staff -- what was your first Staff
10 position?
11 A. I didn't get -- what was --
12 Q. Your first Staff position -- in `90 is it?
13 A. Yeah. Yeah.
14 Q. Okay. What was that position?
15 A. I was working in the Dissem Division,
16 Dissemination Division.
17 Q. What exactly -- what is that?
18 A. I was basically establishing in the
19 Dissem Division for the people to work and make that work.
20 MR. McGARRY: John, do you know what that is,
21 what she's talking about?
22 MR. LAURO: I'm not sure.
23 Why don't you tell us what that is, what the
24 Dissem, Dissemination Division is.
25 A. Oh, how should I explain? You know the
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1 Scientology Org Board, we have an Organization Board, what
2 it is, and this Division I, Division II. And
3 Dissemination Division is a Division II.
4 Q. All right. Did you ever change Staff positions or
5 is that what you do now?
6 A. No, I'm -- I'm back in the Dissemination Division
7 right now.
8 Q. Right this minute.
9 Okay. What position did you hold as a Staff
10 member for the Church back in November of 1995?
11 A. I was a Director of Processing -- or the
12 Deputy Director of Processing.
13 Q. Okay. What, if I might ask, what level of
14 spiritual training have you obtained? -
15 A. I did some training myself when I was not on
16 Staff. Before I had some.
17 Q. Okay. And what level -- are you Clear?
18 A. No, I'm OT-IV.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. I don't know if -- you know what this means?
21 Q. Yes, I do.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. Back in November of 1995 -- when was the first
24 time, let me ask you this, when was the first time you met
25 Lisa Mcpherson?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 A. I think summer or maybe early in `94.
2 Q. In `94?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Okay. And how -- how did you make that
5 acquaintance?
6 A. I met her when I was a Director of --
7 Deputy Director of Processing and she got service in the --
8 you know what an Agency is or Hubbard Guidance Center?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. And I was working there and I was doing an
11 interview with her.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. This was the first time I met her.
14 Q. As part of her spiritual counseling?
15 A. No. She was already -- she had already, over the
16 years before, counseling.
17 Q. So what exactly did you -- what exactly did you
18 perform for her back in that year?
19 A. This -- I did an interview on her, and this was
20 the first time that I met her.
21 Q. And what's the purpose of the interview?
22 A. Interview is to find some or to get information
23 for the Case Supervisor.
24 Q. Which was at the time Alain Kartuzinski or
25 somebody else?
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1 A. I think somebody else.
2 Q. All right.
3 A. Oh, yeah, was somebody else.
4 Q. All right. So you build -- do you build a file, a
5 folder?
6 A. There was -- yeah, the folder was already existing
7 and -- yeah.
8 Q. All right. So the process of this interview, is
9 that -- would that qualify as spiritual counseling?
10 You wouldn't be a Minister, would you?.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You would be considered a Minister?
13 A. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
14 Q. Okay. So I'm confused. If you were a Minister
15 and you were counseling her -- correct?
16 A. No, I was -- no, not Minister in this sense, but I
17 was getting the information. But the information I'm
18 getting I -- for my knowledge, right, falls under also this
19 confidentiality.
20 Q. I understand.
21 At the time she wasn't Clear, obviously, at the
22 time, correct?
23 A. Her Clear state was -- no, she was not Clear.
24 Q. That was the next summer? The following --
25 A. Yeah.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 Q. The following summer after `94?
2 A. Yeah, exactly.
3 Q. So how does that work? That information is then
4 given to the Senior Case Supervisor --
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. -- from the interview?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. As example, he writes questions and then I ask the
10 questions, and then I write it down, and then I turn it back
11 into the Case Supervisor.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Did you become a friend of Lisa McPherson at the
15 time or was that all business that you had with her?
16 A. No, when I met her -- you know when you meet
17 somebody and. -- and you have -- we had a very close -- we
18 like each other very much.
19 Q. Did you ever socialize with her?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do things with her? Go to dinner with her?
22 A. No, never.
23 Q. Go to lunch with her?
24 A. No, never. No.
25 Q. So the times you would have contact with her would
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 be at the Hubbard Center aver there mostly?
2 A. Yeah. Yeah. Or she saw me -- basically she saw
3 me walking through the area and she always came and hug me
4 and -- and we had really close relationship. -
5 Q. Okay. All right, When did you first -- I take it
6 you were one of the caretakers for the period of time that
7 she was staying at the Cabana section of the hotel, correct?
8 A. Yeah, I was with her one night.
9 Q. -- One night?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. Okay. Can you tell me how -- how that came to be?
12 How did you end up being a caretaker?
13 A. Yes. I think, you know, that Alain know --
14 Alain Kartuzinski knew that she was very -- she had a
15 very -- she mention me, I think, many times. She was
16 like -- she liked me very much, right. And if she had a
17 problem she would come and say something.
18 And I think that why he choose me to give her a
19 note this night, the second night. She came into the
20 Fort Harrison the night before, she was put in this one room
21 in the Cabanas, and the next -- I was not there on this day,
22 I was on liberty. And the next day I was asked to give her
23 this note from Alain.
24 Q. Okay. And what did the note say? -
25 A. From what I remember, the note said if she wants
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1 to say something or write something, then she should do
2 this. And this what the note says. And I went down to show
3 her the note.
4 Q. All right.
5 MR. McGARRY: Do we have that note, fellows?
6 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: No.
7 Q. Okay. So how many hours -- how long was your
8 first shift?
9 You're saying the first night she was there you
10 weren't?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. So that would have been Saturday night?
13 A. Yeah. I was with her Sunday to Monday night. -
14 Q. Okay. And how long -- how long a period? What
15 time did you get there on Sunday and what time did you leave
16 on Monday, if you can remember? I know this has been some
17 time.
18 A. Yeah. Yeah.
19 Q. Best you can.
20 A. Yeah. I think I gave her this -- the first thing
21 was that I had to give her this paper. What I think was
22 around 7:00, 7:30.
23 Q. In the evening?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Okay.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 A. Yeah. And then I went back after, see Alain and
2 told him what happened. And then --
3 Q. Kartuzinski?
4 A. Alain Kartuzinski, yeah.
5 And then there was basically no watch set up for
6 this night, was not quite organized, right, and then I was
7 asked to stay there or it was organized that I stay there
8 with Susanne.
9 Q. So how many conversations did you have with
10 Mr. Kartuzinski in reference to Lisa?
11 A. At all or at this night? I think --
12 Q. During this time.
13 A. Maybe one or two.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. Oh, no, I had to do something else. When -- on
16 the same day I had to get all her folders, her folders was
17 in the -- downstairs in the different area, and had to get
18 it up to his office, made sure it went up to his office.
19 Q. Her folders?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. PC folders?
22 A. Yeah, all her PC folders.
23 Q. Where were they located?
24 A. He was working on this. I don't know how long he
25 was working --
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1 Q. Where were they located? Where were the PC
2 folders? Where were they kept?
3 A. They were located in Fort Harrison, in the bottom,
4 one of the bottom rooms, was one of them.
5 Q. You were the actual person that went and got the
6 PC folders for him?
7 A. With other people. Went two, three people. But I
8 was asked to make sure that it happens that, they go up
9 there.
10 Q. Did you do that?
11 A. Yeah. The PC -- yeah, but somebody else was doing
12 it already in the meantime, and I was -- we were several
13 people who did this, but I made sure went up there.
14 Q. And who was with you when you did that?
15 A. I don't know anymore.
16 Q. You don't know?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Don't know who the people were, other caretakers
19 or somebody like a runner?
20 A. Yeah. Yeah, they're people, they bringing folders
21 from here to here. I think was one of the guys who finally
22 get them up there.
23 Q. How many folders were there?
24 A. I can only guess, I don't know.
25 Q. Well, take your best guess. It's okay to guess.
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1 A. Maybe around between 20 and 30. Was a lot.
2 Q. 20 to 30 folders?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. And how thick would you describe, using your
5 finger, was each folder?
6 A. The folders are usually like this. (Indicating)
7 Q. I would say that's three and a half to four
8 inches.
9 MR. McGARRY: Would you agree with that,
10 fellows? John?
11 A. I don't know how much, just --
12 MR. LAURO: About three inches.
13 A. Yeah, maybe a little bit thicker. Is like this,
14 about this. (Indicating)
15 Q. And there were 20 of those?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Okay. And those were taken up to Mr. Kartuzinski?
18 A. To his office, yeah.
19 Q. Were they located in a box or were they carried
20 individually, do you remember?
21 A. I think the way we do it, it would be put on
22 something that you can roll, and then you put them on and
23 then they were brought up. I think I was going down trying
24 to find them. In the meantime, they were already up or
25 something like this, what I remember.
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1 Q. Okay. Do you why Mr. Kartuzinski asked for those
2 folders?
3 A. Yeah. He needed it moved. He was working
4 downstairs the whole night on this and he wanted it up in
5 his office. This was only reason.
6 Q. Oh, I see. So he was actually working on the
7 Lisa McPherson case at the time?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. And he wanted --
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. -- to have everything located in his office --
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. -- rather than down in the basement?
14 A. Yeah. Yeah.
15 Q. Okay. And this occurred on?
16 A. Sunday.
17 Q. Sunday night?
18 A. Yeah -- no, Sunday, early in the day.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. The second day Lisa was staying there?
22 A. Yeah. But he was working already intensively on
23 this folders, is what I was told.
24 Q. All right. Did you ever see those folders again?
25 Did you see them again since that --
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1 A. I seen they was staying in his office, but not
2 question --
3 Q. Do you know that?
4 A. This is what I assume.
5 Q. When you saw that those folders arrived in
6 Mr. Kartuzinski's office, did you talk with him?
7 A. I don't think so.
8 Q. You don't remember?
9 A. No, I don't.
10 Q. Did you ever talk with Mr. Kartuzinski about the
11 Lisa McPherson stay at the Cabana section of the hotel?
12 A. I told him that the night when -- when is -- when
13 I gave her the note. And I don't know if I ask him later on
14 how it was going or so, I ask somebody else.
15 Q. Did you ever discuss with him what plan or what
16 action was going to occur with Lisa, how they were going to
17 stabilize her or --
18 A. No, I never talked to him about it. We were not
19 supposed to talk in this. -
20 Q. That's around Lisa?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. I'm talking about with Mr. Kartuzinski.
23 A. Right. Right.
24 Q. You can talk with him about that though?
25 A. Yeah.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 Q. All right. How were you given the instruction
2 that you weren't -- you weren't supposed to talk around
3 Lisa? Who told you that?,
4 A. I knew it already.
5 Q. From the Hubbard tech?
6 A. Yeah. Yeah, I knew it already.
7 Q. So there wasn't a meeting of how -- how this --
8 what do you call -- what would you call this situation she
9 was going through, Type III?
10 A. She had -- yeah, was gone Type III, and I knew it
11 right from ...
12 Q. So under the Hubbard tech, what was going to occur
13 to bring her from the Type III?
14 A. You basically don't talk to the person and you
15 keep her like quiet and no excitement. Good food, sleep,
16 rest. This what I know of.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. And the night also asked Mr. Kartuzinski what I
19 should do after I have given Lisa the note. She -- I knew
20 her very well, right, and -- and the moment I gave her the
21 note she -- she acted for me like so strange. She was not
22 like the same person. She was a completely different
23 person. And I was so scared. She was really like -- the
24 first time I had this dangerous feeling for her like, and
25 then she grabbed the paper, and she threw it on the floor
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1 now. And then I asked Alain Kartuzinski what to do, right.
2 Q. When did you ask him?
3 A. After I gave, yeah.
4 Q. That was Sunday night?
5 A. Yeah. Yeah, when I talked to him, right.
6 And then he told -- he explained to me, says if
7 something, you take her arm, right, and you put her back to
8 bedand make sure that she is quiet.
9 Q. So you never had a conversation with Lisa?
10 MR. LAURO: When?
11 A. When?
12 Q. I'm sorry. During -- during her stay at the
13 Cabana, did you ever have a dialogue with her?
14 A. I was not supposed to talk-to her, right.
15 Q. But the answer is no, you did not?
16 A. Yeah. Yeah.
17 Q. Did she ever talk to you?
18 A. Yeah, she talked almost all night. She was
19 like -- yeah.
20 Q. Okay. Do you remember anything that she said?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. What did she say?
23 A. One thing I was notice, she was counting, right,
24 she was counting one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
25 eight, nine, ten, right. And she was doing it over and over
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1 and aver again, right. And on one point she says, Oh, I
2 know who you are. On one point she remembered me, but for a
3 split second.
4 Q. During your contact prior with Lisa, prior to
5 November of `95, did you detect anything that you would
6 think would be -- would lead to this behavior? Did you
7 detect anything wrong with Lisa that might lead you to think
8 that she was troubled or had a mental or physical problem
9 she was having to deal with?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Nothing?
12 A. No. No.
13 Q. You no indication --
14 A. No.
15 Q. -- of what later occurred?
16 A. No, no, no.
17 MR. LAURO: You may want to establish with
18 her her prior contact with Lisa in terms of answering
19 that question. She did know Lisa prior to November,
20 `95.
21 Q. Did you know Lisa when she had another prior --
22 what's the word I'm looking for?
23 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Watch.
24 A. Watch, yeah. Yeah, sure, close to a Type III or
25 almost Type III a few months --
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1 Q. When was that, if you remember, the summer before
2 this November?
3 A. Yeah, maybe June or May.
4 And what I remember, I knew Susanne also very
5 well, right, she was like Susanne Schnurrenberger to this
6 time, and Susanne was watching her for about six weeks.
7 Q. During that --
8 A. Four to six weeks, yeah. Yeah.
9 Q. Four to six weeks?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. In the summertime?
12 A. Yeah. Yeah.
13 Q. What do you mean "watching her"? Was she staying
14 at the hotel?
15 A. On the beginning I think Susanne went with Lisa to
16 Lisa's house and she stayed in Lisa's house. She went there
17 and she spend a day with her when she acted a little bit
18 like ...
19 And on the last week Lisa stayed in the hotel, in
20 the Fort Harrison Hotel, in the eight or ninth floor?
21 Q. Okay. Did you visit her?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. You did?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Was she able to communicate? Were you able to
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1 communicate with her or was it during a watch period that
2 you couldn't communicate? -
3 A. No, to this time I could--- we could communicate
4 to her, you could talk to her, but -- but she was -- yeah.
5 Q. Was she receiving any courses during that time?
6 A. No. I -- not that I remember.
7 Q. -Okay.
8 A. Oh, I don't know.
9 Q. Okay. So going back to that, that period of time
10 in the summer, was there -- do you know what it was that was -
11 troubling her or causing her to have some difficulties --
12 what's the word I'm looking for -- remaining PTS?
13 A. No, no.
14 Q. You didn't detect anything?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you ever discuss with her during that period
17 of time whether her job was bothering her, whether it was
18 her boyfriend that was bothering her, whether it was her
19 counseling that was a problem? -
20 A. No, not that.
21 Q. So you don't have any idea?
22 A. No, I didn't talk to her about this.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. McGARRY: Is that what you're referring
25 to, this period of time, John?
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1 MR. LAURO: Yes. There's actually two
2 periods, because there's also a time between the summer
3 and the fall when she also had some other contact with
4 Lisa as well.
MR. McGARRY: Okay.
6 MR. LAURO: In terms of a ceremony and things
7 of that nature.
8 THE WITNESS: Oh, this was before, yeah.
9 Q. The Clear ceremony?
10 A. Yeah. Yeah.
11 Q. Tell us about that.
12 A. Yeah. I was chosen again, why Lisa was very close
13 to me, right, that -- to give her this, as we say, reality
14 factor, right. And it was written down by
15 Alain Kartuzinski, right. And then I told Lisa that she has
16 achieved the state of Clear. And she was very, very happy.
17 She was so happy, right, yeah.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And she made a big deal out of -- out of it
20 herself, right. She then wanted her friends to come. She
21 called Benetta. We waited for whole hour and stuff like
22 this. She wanted everybody to have the celebration with
23 her, right. Sonia came, Benetta came.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Yeah.
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1 Q. Who would you describe as being Lisa's closest
2 friend, closest friend?
3 A. I don't know. Maybe --
4 Q. If you know. If you don't know ...
5 A. Yeah, I don't think -- Benetta was close to her, I
6 know this, in some way, right.
7 Q. Okay. Did you know her roommate, Gloria Cruz?
8 A. No, I never heard the name. I may know her, but I
9 don't know her name.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. T.C. Applebaum I know from --
12 Q. Who's that?
13 A. T.C. Applebaum.
14 Q. I've heard that name before?
15 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: She works for AMC.
16 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: She works at
17 AMC.
18 A. Yeah, they work for Benetta. She was checking up
19 on Lisa once in a while.
20 Q. How about Kate Chamberlain, do you know her?
21 A. Kate?
22 Q. Kate Chamberlain. I think she works for AMC too.
23 A. Kate, yeah. I don't know her, I know the name.
24 But I don't know if she works with Lisa.
25 Q. Who approached you in reference to -- who was the
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1 first person that told you that Lisa was staying in the
2 Cabana and was Type III? How did you learn that
3 information, do you remember?
4 A. Maybe Vic Fasio, I don't know. Maybe Alain. No,
5 I don't think Alain did. Maybe Susanne Justice. I don't
6 know.
7 Q. Who?
8 A. Susanne Justice.
9 Q. Do you remember what they told you, whoever that
10 person was?
11 A. Yeah. This is what I remember, that she basically
12 had an accident or something like this, then she took off
13 her clothes and she walked naked down the street. And then
14 the police grabbed her. This is all what I know about it.
15 Q. Who is it that approached you and asked if you
16 could participate or you could watch, help watch Lisa during
17 her stay at the Cabana? Was that Mr. Kartuzinski or was
18 that somebody else?
19 A. I don't know anymore. Maybe ---
20 Q. You don't remember?
21 A. -- Pete Kellerhaus.
22 Q. Paul Kellerhaus?
23 A. Paul Kellerhaus, yeah.
24 I don't know who -- who did.
25 Q. All right. During your period of time with Lisa
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1 in the Cabana, you were -- you wrote a report?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Do you remember how many reports you wrote?
4 A. I wrote in the morning what happened, all the same
5 day or so. I was there from basically all night, and I
6 think I left at 9:00 or 9:30 in the morning. And went to
7 sleep. And I came back, and I think then I wrote the
8 report, or I wrote it before I left.
9 Q. One report?
10 A. Yeah. Yeah.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. That's what I remember.
13 MR. McGARRY: Should I have her go through
14 this and look for her report?
15 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Yeah.
16 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Yeah, I think it
17 would be good, still a lot of them are not identified.
18 Q. Why don't you flip through those, if you would,
19 and see if you can recognize which ones are yours.
20 (Pause.)
21 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Can we go to
22 that just real quick.
23 A quick question, is that
24 Susanne Schnurrenberger, do you know, the
25 Office Manger?
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1 THE WITNESS: Yeah, this is.
2 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: This is
3 Susanne Schnurrenberger's report?
4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, this is Susanne.
5 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Sorry, Mark.
6 just wanted --
7 Is that yours?
8 THE WITNESS: No.
9 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: That's
10 Susanne Schnurrenberger, okay.
11 BY MR. McGARRY:
12 Q. Okay. Keep going.
13 (Pause.)
14 A. This is mine.
15 Q. 136, is that the one?
16 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Yeah, 136.
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Keep going, see if there are any more that you
19 recognize.
20 (Pause.)
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. How did you come to write these reports?
23 How did you know to do this?
24 MR. LAURO: I think there's just one report.
25 Q. Yes, this one report. It's two pages.
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1 A. Yeah, Alain needed to know what's happen during
2 the night, you see. And I was awake the whole time, I
3 didn't sleep.
4 Q. Oh, I can understand.
5 A. Yeah. And he wanted to know what was going on.
6 Q. So is he the one that requested that the
7 caretakers write reports to him or is it -- was it
8 Paul Kellerhaus?
9 A. I don't remember. Was -- this is like you write
10 it, you see. They have to know.
11 Q. Okay. How did they get -- how did this report get
12 to him?
13 A. I think I brought it up there or I gave it to
14 somebody who brought it up.
15 Q. Do you remember specifically?
16 A. No. No.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. I don't even remember if I did it before I went to
19 sleep or after I went to sleep. I think I did it even after
20 I went to sleep.
21 Q. All right. So after Monday, that was the last
22 time you were involved in the care of Lisa McPherson?
23 A. Yeah. Yeah.
24 Q. All right. Did you ever drop in to talk to
25 anybody or see anybody in reference to the remainder of her
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1 stay there, which was another over a week and a half, almost
2 two weeks? Did you ever talk to anybody about how she was
3 doing?
4 A. Yeah, I was trying to find out. I was trying to
5 find out how she was doing.
6 Q. Okay. Who did you go to?
7 A. I think I talk to Pete Kellerhaus once, right.
8 Q. That's Paul Kellerhaus.
9 A. I don't know why I say Pete. Paul Kellerhaus.
10 Q. That's all right.
11 A. And he told me that on one point she got very
12 wild, right, she got very wild and -- yeah.
13 Q. Did you ever stop in to personally see her?
14 A. No, I wouldn't go in there --
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. -- when the watch was set up already. And I knew
17 from the last time I was with her she didn't know who I was.
18 And I was -- I was... - -
19 Q. Okay. So as you understood the way the watch was
20 set up, others -- other people within the Church are not
21 encouraged to go see her during that period of time. Is
22 that how that works?
23 A. Yeah. You should not have too many people
24 bothering her, you see.
25 Q. Okay. -
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1 A. And I also -- if she would recognize somebody,
2 this would not be -- we didn't want to have any -- how you
3 say the word?
4 Q. So did you do anything else in reference to
5 Lisa McPherson prior to her passing away on December 5th?
6 Did you do anything else in reference to Lisa McPherson?
7 A. To find out what's happening?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Yeah, I was trying to find out what's happening,
10 you see, and I was not expecting that --
11 Q. Okay. Lisa died on Tuesday, December 5th.
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Who told you that? How did you find out?
14 A. We all was gathered together in the fifth floor in
15 the Coachman. We were told to come to the Coachman.
16 Q. Who told you to come to the Coachman?
17 A. I don't know who told me anymore. Maybe
18 Marcus Quirino.
19 Q. All right. And did you meet there?
20 A. Yeah, I was there. And then we all had --
21 Q. Was that the night of December 5th, Tuesday night,
22 the night she died?
23 A. I think so.
24 Q. Was it -- what time of night was it, do you
25 remember?
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1 A. Maybe 9:00, maybe 10:00, I don't remember.
2 Q. All right. And was -- who else was there besides
3 you?
4 A. A lot of people.
5 Q. All the people --
6 A. All the people they have watched her and
7 Q. All right. And tell me what occurred at that
8 meeting.
9 A. We were basically told that she died, and we all
10 had to write down what we knew about it. And I think I
11 wrote another report, what I knew about it. And then we
12 were told not to talk about it.
13 Q. Okay. Who did you hand that written report to?
14 A. Marcus Quirino, I remember this.
15 Q. Did you see that report in this file you just went
16 through?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen it since then, since the
19 day you wrote it?
20 A. I don't know.
21 THE WITNESS: You showed me some reports
22 once, right? I don't know is this one or the other
23 one.
24 MR. LAURO: I haven't seen the report she
25 wrote to Quirino, just the report we have here.
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1 Q. Were you placed in isolation or were you told any
2 information about a contagious disease?
3 A. Yeah, I found out and I was in isolation for half
4 a day or a day or so.
5 Q. Who told you that, Marcus Quirino?
6 A. No, Kate Corley. I had a little bit of a sore
7 throat. And then she says, You're going up to isolation
8 right away. -
9 Q. Did you haye any contact at all with any of the
10 people that worked in the MLO Office?
11 A. To what time period you're asking? -
12 Q. During this Lisa Mcpherson stay, during the
13 Cabana --
14 A. Yeah, I was trying to say, I asked Judy Johnson --
15 Q. Janice Johnson?
16 A. Janice Johnson, yeah. I ask her. I was trying to
17 find out, you see.
18 Q. So did you have a conversation with
19 Janice Johnson?
20 A. She didn't tell me anything, you see. She didn't
21 tell me anything.
22 Q. When did you have this conversation with her?
23 A. In this time period when I saw her on the street
24 or so, I ask her how is Lisa doing, how is she doing.
25 Q. You don't know whether it was towards the
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1 beginning or towards the end?
2 A. No. No.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. I was in shock at the time. I was in shock, I
5 couldn't ...
6 Q. All right. Have you ever been in Lisa's house?
7 A. No. I don't know Lisa's house.
8 Q. Did you ever talk to any of the other people in
9 the MLO Office in reference to Lisa Mcpherson?
10 A. Susanne I talked to. - -
11 Q. How about Judy Weber? Do you know Judy Weber?
12 A. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't know --
13 Q. Did you speak to her at all?
14 A. I don't think so. But --
15 Q. How about Laura, do you know Laura from Mexico,
16 Laura Arrunado?
17 A. Yeah, but I didn't talk to Laura about it. I
18 think she was watching her for -- I don't know.
19 Q. How about Emma? Do you know Emma?
20 A. Yeah, sure I know Emma.
21 Q. Did you talk to Emma about it?
22 A. No. If I talked to somebody, I may have checked
23 up with Susanne, if she was still watching her. I knew she
24 was doing the first day and she was doing the other six-week
25 period. And I know when they were together, Lisa was
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1 like ...
2 Q. You were never interviewed by the police back
3 during the first time of the interviews?
4 A. No, this is the first time.
5 Q. And during your meeting with your lawyer, John,
6 did you meet Sandy Weinberg and Lee Fugate?
7 A. No.
8 MR. LAURO: These are lawyers for the Church,
9 Sandy Weinberg, Lee Fugate, there's a woman,
10 Laura Vaughan.
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MR. McGARRY: That's about all the questions
13 I have. We can take a break or we can finish up.
14 These two gentlemen might have a few questions I
15 neglected to ask you. If you want to wrap it up, we
16 can do it. I don't think there will be too many more.
17 EXAMINATION
18 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
19 Q. You said -- did you discuss Lisa's watch with
20 Susanne Schnurrenberger?
21 A. Not discuss in this sense, but I was there several
22 times when she was watching her before the time period.
23 was -- Susanne was helping me translating something.
24 Q. I see.
25 A. Right. And then I was there, and I was with Lisa
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1 for an hour or two, right, and then Susanne came back, or I
2 was in the room with them together.
3 Q. And this was in June or in November?
4 A. No, earlier times.
5 Q. Okay. Did you ever discuss the November watch
6 with Susanne?
7 A. I don't -- no, I can't --
8 Q. No, you don't know?
9 A. I don't remember. I may have --
10 MR. LAURO: I don't know if this was asked,
11 Susanne- Schnurrenberger was physically present during
12 your watch, it was the two of you?
13 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah, we were both
14 together.
15 Q. So much of what you wrote in this report --
16 A. Yeah, I would not stay with Lisa alone for one
17 second.
18 Q. Was that an order, not to stay with her alone?
19 A. No. I was -- I would not do it. I would not stay
20 with her alone. Way she was, in my eyes, I thought she
21 would kill me.
22 Q. Was she violent at you?
23 A. No. She was -- like we was trying to give her
24 something to eat, right, or she wanted to have a banana, and
25 then she put it all in her mouth, and then she spit it all
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 out.
2 And then at one point she was like -- it was not a
3 table, but where you have stuff on, she was throwing it all
4 off the table, right. And we had -- there was glass and
5 stuff like this, right, and it fall on the floor. And we
6 didn't want her to get hurt, you see. And after this,
7 everything what she could hurt herself we got out of the
8 room and made sure that --
9 Q. Did you ever have to summon the guard to come and
10 help you or did you do that yourself?
11 A. No, we did it ourself. But we knew then that she
12 could be really violent. But I was like ƒƒ I knew Lisa, she
13 was very close. Every time she hugged me, she kissed me.
14 And ƒƒ and -this is -ƒ now I have Lisa where I was scared
15 about it, to get killed. You see what I was like. -
16 Q. What kind of physical condition was Lisa in?
17 A. I think she was in a good condition. She had
18 one --
19 Q. Go ahead.
20 A. Yeah, she had one bruise. Browse? Bruise?
21 Q. Bruise.
22 A. Yeah, on her leg, right.
23 And she did- all kinds of funny things in this
24 night, right. She was -- there were two beds in this room,
25 right. And then she was rolling out of the bed onto the
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1 floor. Then she was hurting herself, right. And then I was
2 getting her up from the floor. I put her back to bed,
3 right. And then she was doing it again. And then I moved
4 the bed against the wall, she stopped it. She was like ƒƒ -
5 she would hurt herself, you see. Is like ...
6 Q. So she would purposely roll out of bed?
7 A. Yeah. She rolled out of bed purposely, right.
8 Q. Was she violent towards Susanne Schnurrenberger?
9 A. No, she wasn't violent. But you -- you know when
10 somebody is like this, where you have this -- I had this
11 feeling like if -- if ...
12 Q. Her -- Lisa was tall right?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. She's taller than you?
15 A. Yeah, sure, taller. Yeah, that why I was scared,
16 you see, she could
17 Q. So at this point had she lost any weight? Was she
18 still pretty heavy?
19 A. Oh, yeah, she was the same as she always was.
20 Q. As she always was?
21 A. Oh, yeah, she was the same. She was strong.
22 Q. So physically she was strong?
23 A. Yeah. -- Yeah.
24 Susanne was taller, she was almost about same
25 height as Lisa was, right. And Susanne knew exactly how to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 handle her. She treated her like a little kid, you see.
2 Q. She had experience, right?
3 A. Yeah, she had experience from ... -
4 Q. Is this the first time you were involved in any of
5 these watches?
6 A. I knew that Susanne was doing the watches before.
7 And I went -- Susanne helped me on the translations. And
8 Susanne was laying with Lisa in one bed and Lisa was having
9 her arm around Susanne and then she was quiet. And this was
10 a way she got her to sleep, right.
11 Q. So she trusted Susanne?
12 A. Oh, totally. Totally. She was like her mom, you
13 see. She was like ...
14 Q. When did Susanne leave Clearwater?
15 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
16 Q. You don't know?
17 A. I don't know. -
18 Q. You said that you'd met Janice Johnson somewhere
19 on the street and you discussed --
20 A. I may I said. I -- I don't know.
21 Q. Okay. But you did say that you discussed Lisa
22 with Janice Johnson?
23 A. Yeah, I was trying to find out, but she didn't
24 tell me.
25 Q. So you're aware that Janice Johnson had something
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 at least to do with the watch?
2 A. Yeah. Yeah, I knew. And I wanted to know how
3 Lisa was doing.
4 Q. What did you understand her role to be there?
5 A. Huh?
6 Q. What did you understand Janice Johnson's role to
7 be in the watch? What was her job on the watch?
8 A. What I understood?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. To make sure that -- that Lisa is okay.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. That's what I understood.
13 Q. So her medical condition?
14 A. Yeah. Not medical condition, but like making sure
15 that is okay. She was a Medical Liaison Officer, she was
16 not a doctor, you see.
17 Q. You don't know Janice Johnson to be a doctor?
18 A. She is a doctor, yeah. She was a doctor
19 previously, yeah, I know that.
20 Q. Okay. Was there a telephone in this room, in that
21 Cabana, Room 174, do you remember?
22 A. I don't remember the number anymore.
23 Q. Okay. Was there a telephone?
24 A. But I know is place where --
25 Q. Was there a telephone in there?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 A. Normally there are telephones in the room, but I
2 cannot tell you there was a phone in the room. I know
3 everything what could hurt somebody was taken out of the
4 room.
5 Q. Okay. If you needed to communicate on the
6 outside, how would you communicate? Did you have a radio or
7 something?
8 A. Oh, good question. I don't know if I had -- I may
9 had a radio, I don't know anymore.
10 Q. You don't remember?
11 A. No.
12 Q. If Lisa wanted to communicate outside the room,
13 would they have afforded her the use of a telephone?
14 A. No, I don't think so.
15 Q. Could she have family visit her?
16 A. No, not that I know. Not the night I was there.
17 Q. As far as you know, did anybody notify her family
18 that she was in this watch --
19 A. I have no --
20 Q. -- or having this mental or physical problem,
21 whatever?
22 A. I have no information on this.
23 Q. You don't know.
24 Did you ever observe Janice Johnson come to the
25 room? Did she come there while you were there?
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1 A. No, not -- no.
2 Q. Did anybody come to the room besides yourself and
3 Susanne Schnurrenberger while you were there?
4 A. This night, no. - Maybe the next morning.
s Q. Who would that have been?
6 A. Well, maybe I went to Security, I don't know. We
7 getting replace after certain time of hours. I don't know
8 if somebody came or -- oh, yeah, somebody came. I think
9 somebody came in the morning, but I don't remember.
10 Q. You don't remember who?
11 A. No, no.
12 Q. And who directed you to write reports,
13 Alain Kartuzinski or PK?
14 A. No, I knew I had to write a report. And I maybe
15 doesn't do it and somebody remind me or I did it on my own,
16 I don't remember.
17 Q. Who told you they had to go to Alain Kartuzinski?
18 A. Where it should go otherwise? He was the
19 Senior -- that was the CS, he had to know the data, you see.
20 He needed this information, how she was doing physically.
21 Q. Okay. Did you talk to Alain Kartuzinski after
22 your watch about Lisa?
23 A. I may told him what happened, but I don't
24 remember. I was very, like -- I was, as I said, I was in
25 shock, you see. She was very close or she was a friend
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 and -- and the friend was now --
2 Q. Did you go back at all during the watch to check
3 on her, see how she was doing, if she needed anything?
4 A. During this other time, no. I was -- I knew that
5 somebody else was with her all the time. I was --
6 Q. You didn't go back?
7 MR. LAURO: Hold on. I know you don't mean
8 to, but you're not letting her finish her statement
9 before you ask the next question.
10 A. I knew that people were with her all the time.
11 Q. Okay. So you didn't go back?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. Have you discussed this case or testimony
14 today here with anyone other than Mr. Lauro?
15 A. That I'm going?
16 Q. No, your testimony here today.
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Have you discussed that with anyone other than
19 Mr. Lauro?
20 A. No. No.
21 Q. You haven't discussed it.
22 When is the last time you discussed this case with
23 anyone other than Mr. Lauro?
24 A. Nobody.
25 Q. You never talked about this case since Lisa passed
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1 away?
2 A. I talked to -- I had a session on this once, I
3 went in session.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. I had a session myself.
6 Q. Who was that with?
7 A. I don't know. I know her last name. Anderson is
8 her last name. -
9 Q. What's her last name?
10 A. Anderson.
11 Q. Anderson?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. And that was an auditing session?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Have you ever -- do you know what a Sec Check is?
16 A. Yeah, I know what a Sec Check is.
17 Q. Have you ever had a Sec Check concerning this
18 case --
19 A. No.
20 Q. -- or concerning your testimony here?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You had said that these PC folders, there were
23 about 20 of them, 20 to 30 I think you said?
24 A. Yeah, this what I'm guessing. I know it was a
25 lot.
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1 Q. A lot of folders?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. So there were 20 to 30 folders and you estimated
4 between three and four inches thick each?
5 A. Yeah, about this. (Indicating)
6 Q. So that's basically eight to ten foot of folders,
7 right?
8 A. I don't know what eight to ten foot is.
9 Q. I'm sorry. I know you're on the metric system,
10 but for us that's a lot.
11 A. Yeah. Yeah, it was a lot. I knew I couldn't
12 carry it alone.
13 Q. You had to use a dolly?
14 A. Yeah, somebody put it on a dolly and got it up.
as Oh, yeah, dolly, exactly. This was the word I was
16 looking for earlier.
17 Q. And took them to Mr. Kartuzinski's office?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Did you ever see them after, those folders? Do
20 you know where they're at today?
21 A. Today, I can only assume that we have it in the
22 warehouse.
23 Q. In the warehouse?
24 A. Yeah. This what I assume, this where the folders
25 are going, but I don't know, I never saw them again.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
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1 Q. I wish it were that simple.
2 When you gave Lisa the note from Mr. Kartuzinski,
3 what did she say?
4 A. Huh?
5 Q. When you gave Lisa the note from
6 Alain Karuzinski, what did she say?
7 A. She didn't say anything. She acted very, very
8 weird, right.
9 Q. Very what?
10 MR. McGARRY: Weird.
11 A. Weird, yeah.
12 Yeah. And in this moment when I showed her this,
13 then I knew it was totally somebody else I had in front of
14 me, right.
15 Q. Was she clothed at that time? When you were there
16 was she kept in clothing or how was she kept?
17 A. No, she had a shirt -- a shirt and little pants
18 she had on. She didn't have much clothes on.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And she was really like
21 Q. Did she try to go out the door?
22 A. No. No. She didn't know who I was and she was
23 like
24 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: I don't have any
25 further questions. Thank you.
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1 EXAMINATION
2 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
3 Q. Did she ask to leave while you were there?
4 A. No. She didn't talk to you like this, that she
5 could say, oh, I want this or I want this. She wasn't able
6 to talk. She was saying things, but like weird things. But
7 she wouldn't ask you, can I have a drink or can I go to the
8 bathroom. She would not ask, she was like ...
9 Q. Okay. Was Security outside the room, outside the
10 motel room or the Cabana room while you were on watch?
11 A. Yeah, it was -- this is how it was set up for the
12 night, right. When we -- I was scared about it, that she
13 gets violent, right. And then it was set up that we are two
14 people in the room, it's not a man in the room, there are
15 basically womans in the room, and one man as a
16 Security Guard outside.
17 Q. Okay. Do you remember who that was?
18 A. No, I don't remember who this was.
19 Q. Now, do you know that he was really out there?
20 Did you see him at any time? -
21 A. No. I know this was to be set up like this, but I
22 don't know if somebody was out there.
23 Q. All right. You said that you had a session with a
24 person by the last name of?
25 A. Anderson.
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1 Q. Anderson?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Now, is that the same person that may go by the
4 name of Jane Jenczh? Is that her married name, Jenczh?
5 Is that a female?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. It's a female?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Do you know how to spell that last name?
10 A. I think A-n-d-e-r-s-o-n, but I'm not hundred
11 percent.
12 Q. Do you know if her first name is Jane?
13 A. I don't know. I don't know --
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. -- but I don't think so.
16 Q. That person that came to have the session, was she
17 a local person here or did she come from Los Angeles?
18 A. She was before in Los Angeles, yeah.
19 Q. She was in Los Angeles, okay.
20 A. I had the session this year, not like --
21 Q. This year?
22 A. This year.
23 Q. On this incident?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Okay. Do you know what month that was this year?
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1 You're talking `97?
2 A. `97. I'm talking `97. This was this year.
3 Q. Do you remember what month?
4 A. I think January or February, is what I remember.
5 Q. Now, was -- was this a spiritual meeting?
6 A. Yeah. Yeah, was a counseling.
7 Q. Is that because of something you did wrong?
8 I'm a little confused on that part of the
9 religion. Is that --
10 A. No. I was like -- I was -- I'm like still -- she
11 was a friend of mine, you see, and I have grief about this,
12 you see. She was a close friend and she died, you see.
13 It's like ...
14 Q. Did you request that session?
15 A. No.
16 Q. The Church told you you were going to have that
17 session?
18 A. Yeah. And I was very happy to get the session.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. I was very happy.
21 Q. Who would tell you that you were going to have
22 that session?
23 A. She told me.
24 Q. This lady here?
25 A. Yeah, she told me.
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1 Q. Now, how did she communicate that to you? Did she
2 send you, a note that says meet me at this time?
3 A. No. She come by and says. I was sick to this
4 time.
5 Q. If I had a picture of her, would you be able to
6 identify her again?
7 A. Sure. Sure.
8 Q. Is she still in Clearwater?
9 A. Yeah, sure, absolutely.
10 Q. Where would I find her?
11 A. Where you would --
12 Q. Where would I find her?
13 A. She works in OSA.
14 Q. She works here now?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. In Clearwater in OSA?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. You said that you were told Alain Kartuzinski was
19 already intensively working on Lisa's folders when you went
20 to go get them?
21 A. No, this was I assumed myself.
22 Q. Oh, okay. You assumed he was already working on
23 them?
24 A. Yeah. I don't know if that's -- I was told.
25 Q. Let me ask you about these reports.
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1 If we could go to the Susanne Schnurrenberger
2 reports, all these reports that are listed on the top from
3 the Medical Office Manager, which I think that's what her
4 title was --
S A. Yeah.
6 Q. -- Medical Office Manager.
7 Now, that report, that first one you run into, up
8 on the top right, okay, it says November 18th.
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. And it starts at 2:45 p.m.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. All right. Were you there then with Susanne?
13 A. You have a calendar here?
14 Q. Yes, ma'am. -
15 Here's November. And this would have been
16 Saturday, the 18th. So this would have been Saturday
17 afternoon at 2:45 p.m.
18 A. No, I watched her on -- from Sunday to Monday.
19 Q. Sunday at what time? What kind of hours? In the
20 morning, a.m.?
21 A. No, no, no. At night. I gave her this note about
22 7:30 or some -- around this time.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. And then I watched -- I was -- I left for an hour
25 or so, and then I came back, and then I was the night there.
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1 Q. All right. This is a little confusing. I'm going
2 to try to work through it.
3 If we assume that that date is incorrect -- and it
4 can't be correct because Lisa wasn't even in the accident
S yet --
6 A. Yeah, it was happen on Saturday and she was
7 already there from --
8 Q. So I'm assuming -- this one here is dated the
9 18th. The next one, if you look, that's dated the 19th.
10 I'm trying to figure out -- would you be able to read this
11 report and tell me if you were there with
12 Susanne Schnurrenberger when that was written? Would that
13 be possible? -
14 A. Yeah, I can. - - -
15 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Because I think
16 this is going to be Sunday's, Mr. Lauro.
17 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think so.
18 MR. LAURO: I don't know.
19 Q. If her accident was at 5:30 at night here, how
20 could you be taking care of her at 2:45 --
21 A. 2:45.
22 Q. -- p.m., which would be 2:45 in the afternoon on
23 Saturday?
24 A. Oh, no, this is in the night, from Saturday to
25. Sunday.
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1 Q. So this would probably be Sunday's date, I guess?
2 A. Yeah. Yeah, the night. Saturday starting, yeah.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. She had the accident on the 18th, and then later
5 on she went into the Cabana, right?
6 Q. Right.
7 A. And the same night was Susanne, I think, wrote
8 this. Was the next night when I was in the room with
9 Susanne. Susanne was mostly sleeping. So this time Susanne
10 was sleeping.
11 Q. Susanne Greene or Schnurrenberger?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. There was two beds, and she was so tired from the
15 night before that she almost slept through the whole night.
16 Q. All right. Could you just quickly read through --
17 A. Sure.
18 Q. -- and see if you can remember, since you wouldn't
19 have wrote a report at that time. Looks like Susanne did,
20 the other; Susanne.
21 (Pause.)
22 A. Oh, I wrote this here. This is my handwriting on
23 this here.
24 MR. LAURO: "This" is the word "rush' -
25 MR. McGARRY: 158.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: 158.
2 A. This -- mine only the "rush" here. Not this
3 report, but this is my handwriting.
4 Q. Why would you write "rush" on that?
S A. I write "rush" on that, that it goes rush to
6 Alain Kartuzinski.
7 Q. Okay. So do you remember this being a product of
8 Susanne Schnurrenberger's while you were on watch?
9 A. I haven't read this. I just saw it when I turn
10 the page. But I can read it.
11 Q. Okay.
12 (Pause.)
13 A. When is 6:45 p.m.?
14 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: That's in the evening.
15 Q. We're not sure, but this looks like it's probably
16 Sunday evening.
17 A. Oh, now I know what it was, yes. I think Susanne
18 asked me to bring it up or I ask her to write it down, was
19 the needed information. This is only thing I can see how
20 this came about.
21 (Pause.)
22 A. Oh, yeah, I remember this. Susanne was very --
23 she couldn't -- she kissed her mouth. Susanne was really --
24 Q. Do you remember any of that?
25 A. I think Susanne told me this. She was like
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1 really ...
2 Q. This would have happened before you got there --
3 A. Yeah. Yeah.
4 Q. -- if Susanne's telling you about it?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Okay. So there's a possibility that you were not
7 with Susanne when she did the 18th or 20th or whatever this
8 is?
9 A. I was there afterwards. I came around, as I said,
10 7:30 or something around this time.
11 Q. After this?
12 A. Or seven o'clock or whenever.
13 Q. All right.
14 A. I maybe was around this time and I ask her to
15 write it after.
16 Q. All righty. If you'll go to two more pages to
17 160.
18 A. I haven't read all this.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Do you want me to read it?
21 Q. Only if you think by reading it you could tell us
22 you were there. If you know you were not there yet, that's
23 okay.
24 (Pause.)
25 A. Yeah, I remember that Susanne told me that she was
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1 trying to get outside.
2 Q. She was trying to get outside the room?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Okay. Would you let her leave?
5 A. No. No.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. You don't know what she does, you see. She would
8 be maybe running in a car, no.
9 Q. If this was a regular normal watch and she wasn't
10 a violent PTS --
11 A. Oh, yeah. Why you shouldn't let her leave, you
12 see. But --
13 Q. -- she could leave?
14 A. Oh, yeah.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. But you have to make sure that like -- she was a
17 friend of mine, you see. It's like ...
18 Q. Okay; This writing here seems to get a little
19 bigger, sort of similar to yours, but it still looks like it
20 may be Susanne's. That's not your writing either?
21 A. No, it's not my writing.
22 Q. Okay. We're still not sure whether you're -there
23 at this time or not.
24 A. Yeah, that's why I'm, reading it.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 (Pause.)
2 Q. Okay. This one is 160, and if you look at. the
3 first sentence in that one, I think it mentions you.
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Okay. So at 1:50p.m. on the 20th of November
6 Susanne Schnurrenberger's writing this as though you've
7- already --
8 A. I was already there.
9 Q. You were already there?
10 A. I was the one who put her back to bed.
11 Q. Kept putting her back to bed.
12 A. She was staying up, every five minutes she was
13 staying up, and then I put her back to bed.
14 Q. Okay. Were you there when she tried to give her
15 water and she threw it down on the floor? She says in here,
16 I gave her a cup of water and she --
17 A. Yeah, she threw something down.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Yeah, she was looking in the light bulb thing.
20 Q. She indicates in there, three times when Emma or
21 me gave her a piece of banana, which is Emma Schamehorn, we
22 put it in her mouth and that she vomited, I guess it's
23 vomited it out.
24 Now, did she vomit a lot while you were there?
25 A. No. We only try to get her some -- one time
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1 something to eat when she was throwing it out.
2 Q. All right. Did she eat otherwise?
3 MR. McGARRY: Was she throwing it up or
4 I spitting it out?
5 THE WITNESS: She was spitting it out more.
6 MR. McGARRY: I don't know if that's the same
7 thing we were thinking.
8 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Yeah.
9 MR. LAURO: There may be a language
10 difference in terms of how you use "vomit."
11 A. She was spitting more like, right. Right, this
12 what she was doing when I was there.
13 Q. Right.
14 Have you used and are you familiar with the things
15 that are written in here as far as cal mag and, I guess,
16 B-1?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. And the second B-i, I guess, she says she vomited
19 out?
20 A. No, she means spits.
21 Q. Spit it out?
22 A. Spits it. She's spitting it out, yeah.
23 Q. Are you familiar with these items and a protein
24 drink that's listed in here? Are you familiar with those
25 items?
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1 A. Yeah, I know what cal mag, I guess, you see.
2 Q. Do you have medical training?
3 A. No.
4 Q. No medical training?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Have you used these things?
7 A. For myself?
8 Q. Yeah, for yourself.
9 A. Cal mag, yeah. I just had today cal mag.
10 Q. What about B-1?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. And protein drinks?
13 A. If I have used it before myself?
14 Q. Yeah.
15 A. Yeah, sure.
16 Q. Okay. Would this be normal, to be given this
17 stuff, the B-1 and all of those things?
18 A. Cal mag?
19 Q. Cal mag and protein drinks.
20 A. Yeah. It's not unusual, yeah.
21 Q. Where would that be coming from in this watch?
22 Apparently --
23 A. This reference from LRH, you see.
24 Q. A reference from LRH?
25 A. Yeah. -
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1 Q. In Lisa's particular case, who would be giving the
2 orders to give this stuff?
3 A. The CS would be give the order or the
4 Medical Liaison Officer.
5 Q. The CS would be giving it to her?
6 A. Yeah. Or would be giving the instruction, or the
7 Medical Liaison Officer, or in liaison with.
8 Q. Okay. With your knowledge of the Church tech,
9 who's the boss between the CS and the Medical Liaison
10 Officer?
11 A. Depends, you see. The boss is Medical Liaison
12 Officer of medical thing, you see, who is the boss on it,
13 who liasion with the doctor, right. -
14 Q. Right.
15 A. And the CS is the one who decides what happens on,
16 the case.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. Those are two --
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. One is a body and one is a spiritual thing, you
21 see.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. The CS is definite -- he's the boss over the
24 spiritual thing.
25 Q. So they kind of collaborate together and make all
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1 these decisions depending on which part of Lisa needed this,
2 whether her body needed it, it was Janice Johnson, and
3 whether her spirit needed it, they kind of intermix a little
4 bit?
5 A. Yeah. But they work together, you see.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. If your body is not in good shape, you go see a
8 doctor or find out what's happening, you see. You need the
9 treatment for the body and then --
10 Q. Then that would be --
11 A. Yeah. -
12 Q. Okay. on your report that you wrote you titled it
13 "Sen C/S" with a back arrow.
14 A. What is this?
15 Q. On the top of your report. I'm sorry.
16 A. What page is this?
17 Q. 136.
18 Can you see that you titled it up there -- maybe
19 mine is a little easier -- "Sen C/S"?
20 A. This means Senior CS.
21 Q. Yes, with a back arrow.
22 Tell me about the Senior CS. Who's that?
23 A. This is Aiain Kartuzinski to this point.
24 Q. So you're writing this report, you know, to the
25 Senior CS, being Alain Kartuzinski?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What's the back arrow mean?
3 A. That it goes to him.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Yeah, this is, you do the -- we do the arrow, it
6 shows this is where the communication goes to.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. That's all what it says.
9 Q. Did anyone other than your attorney show you any
10 reports involved with Lisa Mcpherson?
11 A. No.
12 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: I think I'm
13 almost done.
14 And I am. Thank you very much.
15 MR. LAURO: There's just one point I need to
16 clarify with her for a second. If we could just step
17 out and come back in.
18 MR. McGARRY: All right.
19 (Off the record.)
20 MR. LAURO: There's one small point that,
21 Mark, you had asked whether Lisa had ever gone towards
22 the door or gone out or tried to get out.
23 And I think you just need to clarify that on
24 the record, what your recollection is of that night.
25 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't know exact if
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1 she tried to go or not, I -- I'm not hundred percent
2 sure about this.
3 MR. LAURO: But she may have gone in the area
4 of the door, but she's not sure --
5 THE WITNESS: I was sitting right next to the
6 door.
7 MR. McGARRY: Did you ever stop her from
8 going out the door? Did you have to get in between the
9 door and her?
10 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. I was
ii right -- when this was a room, right, she was laying in
12 the bed there. Susanne was sleeping here. And I was
13 right in front of the door, that she -- basically every
14 time she tried to go into the direction, I would not
15 let her go in this direction, right. But she was also
16 playing around with staying up and ...
17 MR. LAURO: That's all I wanted to clarify.
18 MR. McGARRY: All right. Thank you.
19 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Thank you very
20 much.
21 (WHEREUPON, THE TAKING OF THE SWORN STATEMENT WAS
22 CONCLUDED AT 3:00 P.M.)
23
24
25
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1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
4
5 I, the undersigned authority, certify that the
aforesaid deponent personally appeared before me and was
6 duly sworn.
WITNESS my hand and official seal this _2nd_ day
of ___October___, 1977
10 RUTH M. MARTIN, R.M.R.
Notary Public - State of Florida
11 Commission No. CC 643284
Commission Expires: 4/29/2001
STATE OF FLORIDA )
14 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
15
I, RUTH M. MARTIN, Registered Merit Reporter,
16 certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
report the sworn statement of the aforenamed deponent and
17 that the transbript is a true and complete record of my
stenographic notes.
18 I further certify that I am not a relative,
employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
19 I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
20 interested in the action.
DATED this _2nd__ day of ____October___, 1997.
24
RUTH M. MARTIN, RNR
25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
