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Sworn Statement of Judy Fontana
| Date: | September 17, 1997 |
| Pages: | 110 |
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
2
3
4
5 STATE ATTORNEY INVESTIGATION
6 RE: LISA MCPHERSON
7
8
9
10
11 SWORN STATEMENT: JUDY FONTANA.
12
TAKEN BY: MARK NCGARRY.
13
14 DATE: September 17, 1997.
15
BEFORE: Kristine N. Blake, RNR,
16 Notary Public,
State of Florida at large.
17
18 PLACE: Criminal Justice Center,
State Attorney's Office,.
19 Clearwater, Florida.
20
21
22
23
24 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
25 ST. PETERSBURG, CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320
ORIGINAL
2
1
2 APPEARANCES: MARK MCGARRY, ESQUIRE,
Assistant State Attorney,
3 Attorney for State of Florida.
4 JOHN F. LAURO, ESQUIRE,
101 E. Kennedy Boulevard,
5 Suite 3950,
Tampa, FL 33601
6 Attorney for Judy Fontana.
7
ALSO PRESENT: SERGEANT WAYNE ANDREWS.
8
SPECIAL AGENT LEE STROPE.
9
10
11
3
1 JUDY FONTANA,
2 the witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was
3 examined and was deposed as follows:
4 EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. MCGARRY:
6 Q. All right. My name's Mark McGarry. You've
7 met everybody else in the room. We're conducting an
8 investigation in reference to Lisa McPherson's death.
9 Your name has been provided to us as a person that
10 might have some information in relationship to that.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Would you put your name on the record,
13 please.
14 A. My name is Judy Fontana.
15 Q. All right. And your address?
16 A. It's 551 Saturn Avenue in Clearwater.
17 Q. Is that Hacienda Gardens?
18 A. That's Hacienda Gardens, correct.
19 MR. MCGARRY: Your lawyer might like to
20 put something on the record.
21 MR. LAURO: Thank you, Mark. My name is
22 John Lauro, and I represent Ms. Fontana, and she's
23 testifying today pursuant to a subpoena that's been
24 issued by the Pinellas County State Attorney's Office,
25 and she's testifying pursuant to that subpoena and
4
1 under the protections thereof.
2 BY MR. MCGARRY:
3 Q. Okay. Some background information. Your
4 birth date?
5 A. It's X, 1955.
6 Q. All right. And how long have you lived in
7 Clearwater?
8 A. I've lived in Clearwater off and on for 17
9 years.
10 Q. Where'd you live prior to that?
11 A. Before that I was in Arizona, in X.
12 Q. All right. And when did you join the church?
13 A. Well, I first took services with the church
14 in 1973, June 1973.
15 Q. And where was that?
16 A. That was in an area -- in Peekskill, New
17 York. That's in Westchester County.
18 Q. Uh-huh. And when did you move from New York?
19 A. 1973.
20 Q. And why, for the church or for other reasons?
21 A. No, just for personal reasons.
22 Q. And where'd you move from New York to?
23 A. Well, I went to X, Arizona where I had
24 a friend staying out there.
25 Q. All right. And did you join the church out
5
1 there, or is there a church?
2 A. There isn't a church out there.
3 Q. Okay. When was your next contact with the
4 Church of Scientology?
5 A. The next contact was approximately -- it was
6 either 1977 or '78.
7 Q. Where was that?
8 A. That was in X.
9 Q. All right. And that's where you moved from
10 Prescott?
11 A. That's -- that's right.
12 Q. And was the purpose of that move part of --
13 for church reasons or other personal reasons?
14 A. I was attending school at X State.
15 Q. All right. And reinitiated your contact with
16 the church once you were there?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. All right. Now, was that as a parishioner or
19 was that as a staff member?
20 A. Initially it was as a parishioner.
21 Q. Okay. When did you become staff?
22 A. It was about, I'd say, within -- it was
23 either three or four weeks.
24 Q. All right. And what did you do for them out
25 there?
6
1 A. I was in an area that's called the
2 dissemination area, and I was registering people for
3 religious services.
4 Q. All right. And how long did you do that?
5 A. Until January '80.
6 Q. And why did you stop doing that?
7 A. Well, I stopped because my husband had moved
8 to Clearwater.
9 Q. And that is who?
10 A. Paul Johnson. Sorry, my ex-husband --
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. -- my husband at that time. He had moved to
13 Clearwater and had joined Staff here, and I had stayed
14 over there a little bit after he had left to wrap some
15 things up and then joined him in Clearwater.
16 Q. All right. And when you came to Clearwater,
17 was the sole move to Clearwater because of the church
18 or because of other reasons?
19 A. Because of my husband.
20 Q. Well -- your husband?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. I see. That he was with -- he was totally
23 connected with the church at the time?
24 A. He was a staff member.
25 Q. And still is?
7
1 A. Yes, he still lives in Clearwater.
2 Q. And his name is Paul Johnson?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Like the lawyer but not the lawyer?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. All right. Did you become a member of staff
7 when you arrived in Clearwater?
8 A. Well, not on an immediate basis. Originally
9 when I came here I had some pretty substantial debts
10 that I had from when I was in college, and I used the
11 opportunity to get my debts paid off, and that took me
12 the better part of a year.
13 Q. How did you pay your debts off?
14 A. Well, there was a --
15 Q. I know you're not gonna do it through the
16 church at 50 bucks a week.
17 A. No, that's true. I got various jobs.
18 There's various jobs that were in downtown Clearwater,
19 and I paid them off that way.
20 Q. Okay. So when did you join staff again in
21 Clearwater?
22 A. Well, I officially joined staff August of
23 '81.
24 Q. In what position?
25 A. That was in a group that's called the World
8
1 Institute of Scientology Enterprises. The name is
2 actually called WISE. WISE at that time was in
3 downtown Clearwater on Fort Harrison, and I joined
4 staff there and did work with them in their treasury
5 department doing collections.
6 Q. What -- what exactly does that mean,
7 collections?
8 A. Well, they -- they're a membership
9 organization, and there are different members that
10 would pay dues on occasion, and I would help collect
11 the dues and invoice them in and that sort of thing, do
12 the banking.
13 Q. All right. What position was your husband
14 employed with the church at the time?
15 A. My husband -- let's see -- at that time was
16 in public relations.
17 Q. All right. When did your -- if it's not too
18 personal, when did your marriage go bad with Paul?
19 Somewhere in that period of time, because I know you're
20 married to --
21 A. Right.
22 Q. -- Humberto, right?
23 A. Well, actually, probably somewhere around
24 that time, yeah.
25 Q. Okay. When did you go into the OSA office?
9
1 A. September 10th, 1984.
2 Q. All right. And been there ever since?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. All right.
5 A. Well--
6 MR. LAURO: Not currently. She's not
7 currently there.
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm not currently
9 there, and I've also had short breaks in between that
10 time period where I have done other activities.
11 BY MR. MCGARRY:
12 Q. Okay. Where are you now?
13 A. Well, right now I'm actually not part of the
14 organization per se. I'm in a program which is
15 involved with intensive study and intensive renovations
16 and that's what I'm doing currently.
17 Q. Renovations as in personal renovations or
18 renovations --
19 A. No, no, no. Physical, physical properties.
20 Q. Of the church?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. When did that occur?
23 A. Well, that occurred in Clearwater just as of
24 about seven days ago.
25 Q. Okay.
10
1 A. Before that I was in Los Angeles.
2 Q. And when did you go to Los Angeles?
3 A. In the end of January '97.
4 Q. Okay. Why did you go to Los Angeles in -- in
5 January?
6 A. Well, at the time I was sent out there to do
7 a correction program, counseling, training, that sort
8 of thing.
9 Q. All right. Let's talk about your spiritual
10 studies, if we could, for a second.
11 A. Sure.
12 Q. What's your current status? Is it clear?
13 A. Clear.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Any levels above that? Are you --
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. And when did you obtain that status?
19 A. '79.
20 Q. Okay. All right. During the period of time
21 of November of '95 you were in the OSA office, correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. All right. And your position in that
24 particular office was what?
25 A. Legal officer.
11
1 Q. All right. And you were surrounded by
2 several other people within that office, correct?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. Can you name those people?
5 A. Sure. There's my husband.
6 Q. Uh-huh.
7 A. Brian Anderson, Annie Mora, Alice Herben,
8 Mary Story.
9 MR. LAURO: Okay. Just go a little
10 slower.
11 THE WITNESS: Sure. Mary Story.
12 MR. LAURO: Okay.
13 THE WITNESS: Alice Herben, H-e-r-b-e-n.
14 BY MR.MCGARRY:
15 Q. All right
16 A. That's --
17 Q. If you missed one, that's okay. Can you
18 describe your duties at that particular time as a legal
19 officer?
20 A. Okay. Well, my duties basically were I was
21 in charge of all litigation for the church in
22 Clearwater. At that time we had a number of different
23 active matters. Also --
24 Q. What do you mean in charge of litigation?
25 What does that mean?
12
1 A. Well, I would directly work with all of our
2 church counsel in running litigation we had including
3 attending, you know -- and on behalf of the church for
4 anything as well.
5 Q. All right. Let's talk about your legal
6 background. What legal background do you have?
7 A. None.
8 Q. All right. How were you selected for that
9 particular position? I mean, was that -- was there
10 a --
11 A. Any qualifications you mean?
12 Q. Yeah.
13 A. I guess because somebody thought that I was
14 probably bright.
15 Q. Okay. Well, that's a good answer.
16 A. I don't really know.
17 Q. But no legal -- formal legal training?
18 A. No, no, no.
19 Q. Law school or studies?
20 A. No. I was an art major in college, so that
21 had nothing to do with it.
22 MR. LAURO: Although I'm not sure it's
23 clear that -- on the record that you started out as a
24 legal officer. I think you began --
25 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't actually
13
1 begin as the legal officer.
2 MR. LAURO: You may want to explain
3 that.
4 BY MR. MCGARRY:
5 Q. When did you obtain that title? If you were
6 an OSA and had other positions in OSA, why don't you
7 break that down for me?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Because I know you were in there for almost
10 ten -- quite a number of years.
11 A. Originally when I came in, I came in to do --
12 well, it's actually very similar, it just wasn't called
13 legal officer. It was called legal preparations, and I
14 would work specifically on litigation and prepare
15 materials for the attorneys for the different lawsuits
16 that we had going on at the time.
17 Q. All right. So during that period of time and
18 as well as this period of time where you were a legal
19 liaison officer, I guess is what you are, if a lawyer
20 called OSA, they'd talk to you and get whatever
21 information they needed?
22 A. That's right, unless it was a specific area
23 like immigration.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Immigration had somebody else.
14
1 Q. All right. But that's what your title was in
2 November of '95? As a matter of fact -- when did you
3 get that position so I can establish that?
4 A. That was around -- it was either '88 or '89.
5 Q. All right. So you had it for a full five or
6 six years prior to Lisa's spin, should we say?
7 A. That's true. With -- other than there was a
8 very short break for about three months that was in, I
9 think, 1992 or three, something like that.
10 Q. Okay. Did you ever know Lisa McPherson
11 personally?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Never met her?
14 A. No.
15 Q. When was the first time you heard her name
16 referenced?
17 A. It was sometime at the time where she had her
18 accident, so it was November of '95.
19 Q. Okay. Would that have been the time that
20 she -- somebody called from Morton Plant to OSA and
21 indicated you had a parishioner that was having some
22 problems?
23 A. Well, I heard from somebody else in the
24 office, and I don't specifically remember if it was
25 Humberto or Brian or Annie or someone. That's how I
15
1 heard.
2 Q. Okay. Did you take action on that? Were
3 you -- because of that information that you received
4 from somebody in your office, did you, because of your
5 duties there, take a course of action?
6 A. No, not myself.
7 Q. Okay. Did somebody else in the office?
8 A. I know that Humberto went out to Morton
9 Plant.
10 Q. Okay. Anybody else from your office go
11 there?
12 A. Not that I recall.
13 Q. Do you know who it was that called OSA from
14 Morton Plant?
15 A. No.
16 Q. No?
17 Did you have a conversation with anybody from
18 Morton Plant?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. When was the next thing you heard
21 about Lisa in reference to the Morton Plant situation?
22 Did you gain any other data after she was released or
23 during her stay?
24 A. Well, after -- after her stay in the Fort
25 Harrison, I think it was about -- sometime around
16
1 Thanksgiving or somewhere thereabouts, it was about
2 halfway into her stay --
3 Q. Uh-huh.
4 A. -- I had -- Paul Kellerhals had given me some
5 information about her stay and the fact that she was
6 staying there and had mentioned that she wasn't
7 sleeping and eating well.
8 Q. All right. Prior to that, though, you had no
9 involvement in the decision of somebody that Lisa was
10 going to be offered a room at the Fort Harrison in
11 order to recuperate?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You weren't involved in that decision?
14 A. No, I wasn't.
15 Q. Who was?
16 A. I actually don't know.
17 Q. All right. So the next thing you knew about
18 the Lisa McPherson situation was that Kellerhals was
19 briefing you on --
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. -- apparently an episode or two that she had
22 had?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Well, also, I should say that he must have
17
1 told me that she was staying there after she had
2 arrived.
3 Q. So you knew she was there?
4 A. So I knew she was there --
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. -- at some point.
7 Q. Were you told why she was there and what was
8 the purpose of her stay?
9 A. I don't -- I don't recall any specific
10 conversations about it --
11 Q. Well --
12 A. -- but I must have obviously been told that
13 she was staying there.
14 Q. Being the legal officer -- right. You would
15 be the circle of information being the legal officer,
16 correct? Obviously, there's a situation that requires
17 your being in the loop? I mean, there's a potential
18 legal problem developing, correct?
19 A. Not at that time.
20 Q. Well, she crashed her car, right?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. And she was having apparently a psychotic
23 break and she was staying at the hotel, so you were
24 being apprised of those situations, correct?
25 A. I was apprised it occurred when it occurred,
18
1 but it wouldn't be, strictly speaking, a legal matter.
2 It wasn't something that was going to jeopardize the
3 church. At least at that time there was no
4 understanding that that was going to occur.
5 Q. Okay. Were you aware that there was a round
6 the clock watch being implemented for Lisa?
7 A. At some point, yes. I think PK had told me
8 or Paul Kellerhals.
9 Q. And were you aware that there was a document
10 routing of her daily. conduct that was being routed to
11 Alain Kartuzinski?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You weren't aware of that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know who Alain Kartuzinski is?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. When was the next thing that you can recall
18 that happened in reference to Lisa McPherson's stay at
19 the hotel?
20 A. Well, there's an incident that I was -- or
21 this conversation I was telling you about that was, I
22 think, around two weeks after she had arrived with Paul
23 Kellerhals in which he had mentioned something like,
24 you know, she's not sleeping very well or not eating
25 very well.
19
1 Q. Right. Did you act upon that?
2 A. Well, I told him to act upon it.
3 Q. And what instructions were those?
4 A. To make sure that she got some treatment so
5 that she was going to eat and, you know, get the proper
6 amount of sleep.
7 Q. And any specific instructions, or were you
8 instructing him just -- I mean, he's a security
9 officer. He's not in charge of health care, is he?
10 A. No, not generally, but he seemed to be in the
11 loop of what was occurring with the situation more than
12 anybody else that I was dealing with.
13 Q. All right. So who was entrusted with her
14 care at that point? Was it you or Alain Kartuzinski or
15 one of the people at MLO? I mean, it sounds like you
16 were making a decision for her care at that point. Was
17 there other people making decisions as well?
18 A. I don't know actually. Paul Kellerhals
19 was -- you know, seemed to be in tune with the
20 situation.
21 Q. Well, who was in -- were you aware that she
22 was there to be -- regain her -- her sanity to some
23 degree and calm down for a course -- an introspective
24 run-down course? Were you aware of that?
25 A. No.
20
1 Q. Did you ever become aware of that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You're not aware of that to this day?
4 A. No. That wasn't what my understanding was
5 for the reason that she came.
6 Q. What is your understanding for the reason she
7 came?
8 A. My understanding was that she came so that
9 she had a place to stay, because that's what she
10 wanted. That was my understanding.
11 Q. Okay. But you were never -- and to this
12 moment right now you have never been told by anybody in
13 the organization that she was there to become -- for a
14 course that would ultimately come -- I'm not saying
15 that the period of time that she was in that hotel that
16 she was getting this course. I'm not suggesting that.
17 I'm suggesting that she was there to regain her sanity
18 in order to participate in that course.
19 A. No.
20 Q. You weren't -- you aren't aware of that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Not at all.
24 Q. Who was the person from the MLO office that
25 was in charge of Lisa McPherson's health care?
21
1 A. I wasn't sure -- I didn't know actually that
2 there was anybody specifically in charge of her health
3 care while she was there. I mean, you're talking about
4 like a medical doctor, correct?
5 Q. I'm talking about your MLO office, medical
6 liaison office, was involved in the watch, correct?
7 A. I know that now. At the time I did not know
8 that.
9 Q. At the time you didn't know that there were
10 any people involved at all from that office in Lisa's
11 care?
12 A. That's right. I thought she was going to an
13 actual medical doctor.
14 Q. Well, when you told Kellerhals that you
15 wanted her taken care of, fed --
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. -- who did you think he was gonna go through
18 but MLO?
19 A. Well, there's hotel people that service
20 somebody to be fed. You don't have to go to a medical
21 officer to get food.
22 Q. I know, but my understanding of your initial
23 conversation with Kellerhals is is that Kellerhals is
24 telling you she ain't doing so well, she's having fits
25 of rage, not eating, not sleeping.
22
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Isn't that a job for M -- the MLO office to
3 handle?
4 A. Not really. Well, I mean, it would be
5 something that a doctor would handle. If somebody's
6 not eating correctly, you would -- and you can't get
7 them to eat or coax them into eating, well, then you'd
8 have to call a medical doctor. We don't have --
9 Q. Did you tell Kellerhals to do that?
10 A. I told him if he couldn't get her to eat,
11 yeah, you need to contact a medical doctor.
12 Q. Okay. Was that done?
13 A. At some point it was done. I don't know the
14 actual duration from the time that I had that
15 conversation until the time that a doctor was
16 contacted...
17 Q. Which doctor was that?
18 A. Dr. Minkoff (phonetic.)
19 Q. Well, that was the day she died, correct?
20 A. No, I don't think so.
21 Q. Okay. Your knowledge is that he was
22 contacted prior to the day she died?.
23 A. I thought so.
24 Q. And by who?
25 A. I don't know exactly.
23
1 Q. And where did you get that information?
2 A. My recollection is from Paul Kellerhals.
3 Q. He told you that Minkoff was contacted prior
4 to her --
5 A. I--
6 Q. -- dying?
7 A. I think so. I'm not real clear about that,
8 but I believe it was.
9 Q. And how long before she died had that
10 occurred?
11 A. A week maybe.
12 Q. Okay. And are you aware of anything that
13 Dr. Minkoff did in reference to her well-being? I
14 mean, did he come see her or did he prescribe anything?
15 A. I seem to remember that there was a
16 recommendation about some sort of over-the-counter
17 substance. I don't know if it was a vitamin or -- I
18 don't remember specifically.
19 Q. Okay. And you don't know who made the call
20 to Dr. Minkoff?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. All right. Are you aware that Janice Johnson
23 and Emma Schamehorn, Laura Arrunada -- who else?
24 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Caretakers or the
25 medical people.
24
1 MR. MCGARRY: No, MLO people.
2 BY MR.MCGARRY:
3 Q. Were you aware that the MLO office, those
4 three people, were involved with her well-being?
5 A. Not at that time, no.
6 Q. You weren't --
7 A. I am now.
8 Q. In fact, those people were involved from the
9 get go, right? That's what you've learned -- I mean,
10 you have that information now, right?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Well, I don't know about Emma, but I do know
14 that in terms of -- there was sporadic contact by
15 Janice and Laura.
16 Q. How about Judy Goldsberry-Weber, was she
17 involved? Do you know her?
18 A. Yes, I do. I just know of her involvement in
19 tens of the Morton Plant incident.
20 Q. How come she wasn't involved if she was the
21 public MLO officer involved in the care of Lisa
22 McPherson?
23 A. I can't answer that question actually.
24 Q. Do you know that she -- if she was or wasn't?
25 A. I don't know if she was or wasn't. The only
25
1 thing I specifically recall her involvement with is the
2 Morton Plant incident.
3 Q. Okay. How about Susan Green, do you know if
4 she was involved, in the care?
5 A. Don't know.
6 Q. Do you know who Susan Green is? She's
7 been --
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. -- remarried. I think it was originally --
10 A. Susan Schnurrenberg.
11 Q. Schnurrenberg, correct?
12 A. No, I don't know.
13 Q. So how many people were in the OSA office at
14 the time that Lisa was in Morton Plant? Sounds like
15 the office was full staff. If you were there and your.
16 husband was there --
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. And who else was there?
19 A. Brain.
20 Q. Annie Mora?
21 A. Annie.
22 Q. And this is what time, eight or nine o'clock
23 at night? What time was that?
24 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Nine o'clock.
25 SERGEANT ANDREWS: Later, probably ten
26
1 o'clock.
2 BY MR. MCGARRY:
3 Q. You guys work long hours.
4 A. Yes, we do.
s Q. So everybody that I mentioned was in the
6 office at that time?
7 MR. LAURO: What time are we talking
8 about?
9 MR. MCGARRY: I'm talking about --
10 THE WITNESS: Nine or ten o'clock at
11 night.
12 MR. MCGARRY: -- nine or ten o'clock at
13 night.
14 MR. LAURO: What day?
15 MR. MCGARRY: The day she went to Morton
16 Plant.
17 MR. LAURO: Oh, okay.
18 THE WITNESS: To the best of my recall,
19 yes, they were all around.
20 BY MR. MCGARRY:
21 Q. Okay. What time do you guys knock off at
22 night?
23 A. Well, on an average --
24 Q. Just out of curiosity.
25 A. On an average, eleven o'clock, eleven, 11:15.
27
1 Q. All right. Going back to Minkoff, who called
2 Dr. Minkoff on December 5th? That's the day she -- she
3 died. Do you remember who that was? Were you told who
4 that person was?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you ever -- have you ever had a
7 conversation with Dr. Minkoff --
8 A. No.
9 Q. -- in reference to this case?
10 A. Not myself, no.
11 Q. Not during, before, after, anywhere up until
12 this day?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. When were you told that -- that Lisa
15 passed away?
16 A. The evening that it occurred, which I believe
17 was December 5th.
18 Q. Who told you?
19 A. Brian Anderson.
20 Q. Where were you?
21 A. I was in my office, which is probably about
22 30 feet away from his desk.
23 Q. Okay. Who told him? Do you know?
24 A. I don't know. I just know that he got a
25 phone call.
28
1 Q. And what time of night was that?
2 A. I think it was around eleven o'clock at
3 night.
4 Q. All right. What actions did you take at that
5 time?
6 A. Well, what I did was I asked Brian to -- I
7 asked Brian for information about what had happened,
8 you know.
9 Q. Now, you're -- I assume that now you are
10 expecting there may be legal ramifications taking
11 place?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. That's right. I asked Brian to get
15 information about what actually had occurred, what did
16 she die of, you know, what was the aparacy (phonetic,)
17 whatever, she died of, and Brian said that he didn't
18 have all the information and he would have to get more
19 information so that I could contact the attorney.
20 Q. And who was that?
21 A. That's Bob Johnson.
22 Q. All right. When was Bob Johnson contacted?
23 A. I think I called him about -- somewhere
24 between 11:30 and 12.
25 Q. That night?
29
1 A. That night.
2 Q. Okay. You talked to Marcus Corinno?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. Were you aware of what his involvement
5 was on December 5th?
6 A. No. Let me explain something as to why I'm
7 saying that. That -- I was scheduled to go to Italy
8 the next morning for a particular legal matter that we
9 had ongoing in Rome, and what I was actually in the
10 middle of doing was preparing for this particular court
11 matter in Rome that night and preparing to leave, so I
12 was basically -- I had turned over everything that I
13 had pending to Brian and Brian was going to be my
14 replacement while I was gone, so that was actually what
15 I was doing. I was rather disconnected from what
16 occurred because of the fact that I was actually gonna
17 be out of there the next morning.
18 Q. And did you, in fact, leave the next
19 morning --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- for Italy?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. So Brian Anderson's the one that was in
24 charge of your position as well as his own position?
25 A. That's right.
30
1 Q. He didn't remember that.
2 A. There was a lot of activity going on that
3 month.
4 Q. Well, he got a committee of evidence out of
5 the whole thing, so that's probably one of the other
6 aspects of that.
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. So when did you return from Italy?
9 A. I returned on the 23rd of December and
10 actually was here for half a day, and then I left on
11 the 24th and went to Miami.
12 Q. All right. How long were you in Miami?
13 A. I was in Miami, I think, for about a week or
14 so, and then I came back for a day and then I went to
15 Boston.
16 Q. All right.
17 A. So I returned to Clearwater, I think it was
18 about somewhere around the 10th of January.
19 Q. Of '96?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. When was it you got briefed on all the goings
22 on with the Clearwater investigation in reference to
23 Lisa McPherson's death?
24 A. When I got back.
25 Q. From Boston?
31
1 A. That's right. So early January.
2 Q. And that's when you were brought up to speed
3 on this whole thing?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. You were never interviewed by the police at
6 that time, were you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. So you didn't go to the funeral, I
9 guess Brian did?
10 A. It must have been Brian. It wasn't me.
11 Q. All right. Sometime in I guess it would have
12 been December of '96, it might have been before then,
13 this Lisa McPherson matter re-erupted probably in
14 result of Dr. Woods' findings?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Prior to that have you ever seen Lisa's PC
17 folder?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you know where it was?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Where is -- where are everybody's PC folders
22 kept in Clearwater?
23 A. Generally PC folders are kept in a warehouse.
24 Q. Okay. Were you aware of Mr. Kartuzinski's
25 having possession of them at any time?
32
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were you aware of Brian Anderson having
3 possession of them at any time?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Were you aware of Annie Mora having
6 possession of them at any time?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Up until today?
9 A. No. That's correct.
10 Q. So -- now, you know that Annie Mora had
11 possession of them at one time?
12 A. Well, no, I didn't know that specifically.
13 know that Annie Mora had -- I had asked Annie where the
14 pre-clear folders were.
15 Q. When was that?
16 A. When I returned in January.
17 Q. And what did she say?
18 A. And she told me that she had sent them or had
19 them sent to Los Angeles. Whether she physically had
20 the folders in her possession, I don't know, but she
21 told me that she had them sent to Los Angeles.
22 Q. She told you that in January of '96?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. That she had already sent Lisa McPherson's
25 pre-clear folders?
33
1 A. (Nodding head.)
2 Q. Do you know how many of them there were?
3 A. No.
4 Q. But she had already boxed them up and sent
5 them to LA?
6 A. That's right, or she didn't have to have
7 necessarily done them herself but that, she had them
8 sent to Los Angeles.
9 Q. Okay. Who ordered that to be done?
10 A. I don't know, and I didn't actually ask.
11 Q. Why?
12 A. It wasn't particularly pertinent information.
13 Q. You're the legal officer in the OSA. Why
14 wouldn't that be pertinent? You don't know who ordered
15 those up?
16 A. No. No, I don't know who ordered it.
17 Q. Who does know the answer to that question?
18 A. I would think Annie would.
19 Q. Annie doesn't know the answer to that
20 question. She actually said your name.
21 A. I don't know who would know, because Annie --
22 if Annie was the one that sent them, Annie should know
23 the one who ordered them.
24 Q. You would think, and I think she did use your
25 name, so she's mistaken if she used your name in
34
1 reference to ordering up those documents to send them
2 to LA?
3 MR. LAURO: Before you answer that, I
4 don't have a copy of the transcript.
5 MR. MCGARRY: I know.
6 MR. LAURO: I think it's --
7 MR. MCGARRY: I'm just asking her.
8 MR. LAURO: I think the reference from
9 Annie Mora was either Judy or Brian. I don't think she
10 was certain as to who. I could be wrong, but that's my
11 recollection of what her testimony was.
12 MR. MCGARRY: I think you're accurate on
13 her.
14 BY MR. MCGARRY:
15 Q. It could have been Brian or you. And you're
16 saying it wasn't you?
17 A. It wasn't me.
18 Q. And to the best of my recollection, Brian
19 said it wasn't him, so who does that -- who does that
20 leave?
21 A. I have no idea; I mean, you're asking me to
22 speculate on something when I wasn't present.
23 Q. I'm not asking you to speculate. I'm asking
24 you who might know the answer to my question.
25 A. The one who would be logical would be Annie,
35
1 and if Annie and Brian don't know, then I'm stumped.
2 Q. Well, let me ask you further questions about
3 that area.
4 A. Sure.
5 Q. Why were they sent to LA? Why would
6 somebody's PC folder be sent to LA if -- if the person
7 lived here? She's dead. Why did it go to LA?
8 A. Well, that's actually pretty usual when you
9 have an occasion where a parishioner has obviously
10 gotten into some sort of trouble. The folders would be
11 reviewed.
12 Q. By who?
13 A. By somebody -- somebody from the -- one of
14 the senior officers who were in charge of the
15 ministerial actions for the church and that's out in
16 Los Angeles. That's pretty regular.
17 Q. And as a legal officer in Clearwater, the
18 head legal officer in OSA, you don't know who that was?
19 A. No.
20 Q. I'm talking today, right now, you --
21 A. I understand.
22 Q. -- don't know who the person is that has --
23 where are the PC files now?
24 A. I have no idea.
25 Q. You're the head legal officer. This is a
36
1 legal matter. You don't know where the PC files are?
2 MR. LAURO: Time out. She hasn't been
3 the legal officer for over a year. She's been out of
4 that position for quite sometime.
5 MR. MCGARRY: She's still an OSA.
6 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not.
7 MR. LAURO: No, she's not. You haven't
8 asked those questions. She's not an OSA. She hasn't
9 been there in over a year and she hasn't participated
10 in search for documents or anything of the kind, so you
11 may need to go back and clarify when she left OSA.
12 BY MR. MCGARRY:
13 Q. Okay. Let's go back and let's pick up where
14 your attorney's indicated -- you got out of OSA when?
15 A. Well, I actually was removed from my position
16 in legal early December -- mid December --
17 Q. Of--
18 A. -- '96.
19 Q. -- '96?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. And who took your place?
22 A. Well, it was primarily -- there was a number
23 of people that actually held my position, but Humberto,
24 as my direct senior, officially held my position.
25 SERGEANT ANDREWS: I just have a
37
1 question. Are you positive it's 1996, the month after
2 Lisa dies or a year after Lisa dies?
3 MR. LAURO: December '96.
4 THE WITNESS: December '96.
5 SERGEANT ANDREWS: December '96, a year
6 after --
7 THE WITNESS: Right.
8 SERGEANT ANDREWS: Okay. That makes
9 more sense. I got it.
10 BY MR. MCGARRY:
11 Q. So nobody was given your title officially?
12 A. No. It was vacant.
13 Q. Why did you get removed from your post?
14 A. Primarily at the time it was because of an
15 incident that had occurred with the media contacts
16 after the release of the autopsy report.
17 Q. And that would have been who, Brian Anderson
18 and --
19 A. No, Humberto.
20 Q. Humberto?
21 A. Humberto was my direct senior.
22 Q. Well, explain the media contacts you're
23 talking about. Let's -- give me that.
24 A. Okay. There was -- I don't remember which
25 reporter. There was some reporter that had called and
38
1 contacted someone in our office concerning the release
2 of medical reports or the autopsy report, and at that
3 time they were printing for an article that was either
4 that day or the next day or somewhere thereabouts. I
5 guess it must have been the next day. It was that
6 specific day that I was removed, and it was due to
7 basically insufficient handling on preventing it from
8 the point of having media contact on that matter.
9 Q. All right. Was there a committee of evidence
10 on that?
11 A. Much later, yes.
12 Q. In reference to that issue?
13 A. That issue, but actually it was kind of a
14 broader picture than that, other legal matters as well.
15 Q. All right. Well, what position did you go to
16 from there, from the OSA office?
17 A. Well, at that time I was kind of used as a
18 runner within the office, runner being taking things
19 back and forth to attorneys or even just within, you
20 know, general church duties, not even specifically
21 somebody in the legal department. That was the case
22 until the end of January '97. At the end of January
23 '97 I was sent out to Los Angeles for some correction.
24 Q. What does that mean, correction?
25 A. Well, correction meaning, you know, you've
39
1 got a person who's made mistakes and needs to be
2 corrected within our own system. There's certain
3 actions that can be taken to remedy a staff member
4 who's not doing well.
5 Q. Did you handle anything in reference to Lisa
6 McPherson while you were in LA?
7 A. LA, no.
8 Q. Did you ever see any documents?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you ever see any PC folders?
11 A. No. That isn't what I was doing out there.
12 Q. So you're not aware of your post being
13 filled? Is your post filled now, the legal --
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. And who's that?
16 A. That's by Glenn Stilo.
17 Q. Stilo has it?
18 A. (Nodding head.) .
19 Q. And have you -- and have you talked to Glenn
20 Stilo about this matter, this Lisa McPherson matter?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Not at all?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Are you aware that Glenn Stilo was kind of
25 doing a document search in reference to some reports
40
1 that we suspect are missing from Lisa's PC folder? Are
2 you aware that he was doing that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. When's the last time you've seen Glenn Stilo?
5 A. This morning.
6 Q. Oh, he dropped you off here this morning?
7 A. Exactly.
8 Q. And you're trying to tell me that now he's --
9 to this day you've never talked about Lisa McPherson's
10 case with him?
11 A. No. I discussed it with my attorney in
12 preparation for this meeting.
13 Q. I understand that. And as well as Sandy
14 Weinberg and Lee Fugate, correct?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. Previously, earlier?
17 A. Previously.
18 Q. This summer?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. So he is now -- what -- give me his title
21 exactly, Glenn Stilo's position.
22 A. He's the legal officer for Flag, Flag Service
23 Org.
24 Q. And when did he take that position?
25 A. I actually don't know, but it would have been
41
1 sometime in the spring of '97, I would think.
2 Q. And you're not aware, because you're not in
3 OSA now, nor privy to any of the Lisa McPherson talk,
4 where the PC folder is?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. To this -- I mean, who knows where the PC
7 folder is right now?
8 A. I have no idea who knows.
9 Q. So in February of this year, of 1997, you
10 were not in OSA -- at the OSA?
11 A. No. I was in Los Angeles.
12 Q. Did everybody in the OSA know that? I mean,
13 I've talked to everybody in this OSA and this is the
14 first time I've heard that you weren't the legal
15 officer, really, for quite sometime.
16 A. I would have thought they would know about
17 that.
18 Q. Well--
19 A. Maybe they thought I was.
20 Q. A lot of people give you credit that I've
21 talked to for doing a lot of things, and, of course,
22 now you are denying any participation practically
23 whatsoever in the Lisa McPherson case.
24 MR. LAURO: Wait, wait, wait. That's a
25 little bit of an overstatement, because I don't think
42
1 you've asked certain questions..
2 MR. MCGARRY: In reference to records.
3 MR. LAURO: In reference to collection
4 of records, I think that's a fair statement.
5 BY MR. MCGARRY:
6 Q. Right. In reference to the records you're
7 out of the loop?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Other than knowing that Annie Mora sent them
10 to LA? You knew that?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. But you don't know why she sent them or who
13 asked for them or who ordered that?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. Are you aware who the person is that actually
16 went through the PC folder and determined what was
17 caretaker notes and what wasn't?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Have you ever met Kathy O'Gorman in this
20 case? Have you ever met Kathy O'Gorman, period?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And where does she reside, California?
23 A. As far as I know, California.
24 Q. Okay. Did you ever talk to her about the
25 Lisa McPherson case?
43
1 A. No.
2 Q. How about Becky Ellenberg?
3 A. I don't know who that is.
4 Q. Okay. How about Ken Long?
5 A. I did have a conversation with Ken Long, not
6 specifically about this case. Explain a little bit on
7 that point. I had mentioned that on December 5th when
8 I found out about Lisa McPherson and her death, the
9 next morning I was scheduled to go to Italy. The
10 individual who was making the arrangements for me to go
11 to Italy was Ken Long. I had actually wanted to stay
12 and work on Lisa McPherson instead of going to Italy,
13 and I contacted Ken Long in terms of mentioning that
14 she had died, but at that time I didn't have very many
15 specifics, and I requested for my -- to be able to
16 delay my trip to Italy, and he said no, so that was the
17 conversation I had regarding Lisa McPherson. It wasn't
18 concerning the case at that time. Obviously, nothing
19 had happened.
20 Q. So you've never personally seen Lisa's PC
21 folder?
22 A. No.
23 Q. How about any other documents in reference to
24 Lisa McPherson's stay at the hotel during those two
25 weeks? Annie Mora's document, did you ever see that
44
1 summary, three-page summary?
2 A. Yes, I did see that.
3 Q. Okay. When was that?
4 A. That was in -- when I came back in January
5 '97 -- '96, sorry.
6 Q. She showed you that?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. Did you ever talk to Bennetta Slaughter about
9 this case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know who Bennetta Slaughter is?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. How do you know her?
14 A. I know her. She's quite an active
15 $©ientologist in public relations activities.
16 MR. LAURO: Mark, you may have asked
17 this question and then asked another question at the
18 same time. I think you asked one broad question about
19 any documents and then you went onto a specific
20 document, so I don't know if you're still at that
21 pending question --
22 MR. MCGARRY: Yeah.
23 MR. LAURO: -- on all documents that
24 Judy may have had contact with.
25
45
1 BY MR. MCGARRY:
2 Q. Other documents other than this one?
3 A. In January I saw that document plus there
4 were some handwritten notes that were done by some of
5 the staff members who were interviewed in December.
6 Q. Handwritten notes?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. And who provided those to you?
9 A. Well, it was either Annie -- Annie or Brian,
10 and it was in a file that was given to me when I came
11 back and, you know, what I could review concerning the
12 Lisa McPherson matter.
13 Q. They were written in hand and they weren't
14 typed, right?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And they were summaries from caretakers in
17 reference to what they had observed, the ongoings of
18 Lisa?
19 MR. LAURO: No.
20 THE WITNESS: No, not caretakers.
21 BY MR. MCGARRY:
22 Q. Oh, who?
23 A. There was -- the ones I specifically recall
24 is Alain Kartuzinski and Laura Arrunada.
25 Q. She's a caretaker.
46
1 MR. LAURO: Yeah, but these relate to, I
2 think, something else.
3 THE WITNESS: They weren't related to
4 that.
5 MR. LAURO: Go ahead. You explain.
6 THE WITNESS: I'm thinking of
7 contents. It was specifically relating to her
8 interview with -- I believe there was a police officer
9 that came to the Hacienda or something thereabouts.
10 There were some -- there were specific debriefs of the
11 questions and responses concerning those specific
12 interviews. That's what they were.
13 BY MR. MCGARRY:
14 Q. And who -- let's go over the people. Alain
15 Kartuzinski?
16 A. Alain, Laura, and I believe also -- I'm
17 pretty sure it was also Janice.
18 Q. Would they have been handwritten notes that
19 they were requested to do by a security guard or by a
20 Clearwater police officer or in reference to -- do you
21 know which one's which?
22 A. Well, it wouldn't have been a police officer.
23 It would have been someone internal for the purpose of
24 providing church counsel with information about what
25 occurred in these interviews.
47
1 Q. So those --
2 MR. LAURO: Wait, wait. I'm confused.
3 You need to clarify that. Did -- did these notes
4 relate to interviews conducted by a police officer or
5 interviews conducted by an internal security person?
6 THE WITNESS: No, no, by a police
7 officer.
8 MR. LAURO: Okay.
9 THE WITNESS: There were meetings that
10 had occurred with the police officers.
11 BY MR. MCGARRY:
12 Q. Oh, all right. See, the confusion lies in
13 some areas of -- I have information that one of the
14 security people at the church requested Greenwood,
15 Arrunada and Johnson do a summary of their trip to the
16 hospital, okay?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. And they've all indicated that they did those
19 summaries and turned them into the security
20 headquarters down there in the parking garage.
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. Those are missing.
23 A. I see.
24 Q. We're not talking about those? You're not
25 talking about those?
48
1 A. No, I'm not talking about those. Paul
2 Greenwood was one of them, was one of the other ones,
3 and it was basically summaries of the interviews that
4 they had with the police officers.
5 Q. With these guys, Clearwater Police
6 Department?
7 A. Yeah. In the summaries they didn't say who
8 from the police department, but that's correct. It was
9 police officers.
10 Q. All right. Okay. How about the summaries
11 that Marcus Corinno did, did you ever see those?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were you aware that Brian Anderson indicated
14 that he -- were you privy to the information that Brian
15 Anderson destroyed a lot of caretaker's notes in
16 reference to their meeting with Marcus Corinno?
17 A. No.
18 Q. All right.
19 MR. LAURO: There's one other contact
20 with documents that I think she needs to explain
21 before --
22 MR. MCGARRY: All right.
23 MR. LAURO: -- in full answer to that
24 one question, so --
25 THE WITNESS: What was the -- I thought
49
1 the -- what was the specific question on this one?
2 thought I answered it.
3 MR. LAURO: The question was what --
4 MR. MCGARRY: There's a lot of --
5 MR. LAURO: What contact you had with
6 any Lisa McPherson documents, and that --
7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 MR. LAURO: -- question needs to be
9 fully answered.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay.
11 BY MR. MCGARRY:
12 Q. We talked about Annie Mora's documents, we
13 talked about those documents that you saw that
14 Greenwood, Mora and Arrunada wrote.
15 A. That was in January. There was a later time
16 period, and I think it was March, April, sometime
17 around there -- that wasn't a document. That was in --
18 I was asked to prepare a transcript of some interviews
19 that were done with the police department of which I
20 did do the transcript. This was at the request of my
21 attorney, and that was obviously a document after I
22 had --
23 Q. Uh-huh.
24 A. -- you know, created it.
25 Q. A transcript of your interview of the people
50
1 that --
2 A. Transcript of interviews that were done with
3 the police department in, I think it was either March,
4 April or May. I forget which one occurred when, but
5 there were several interviews that were done.
6 Q. March, April or May of --
7 A. Of '96.
8 Q. -- '96?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. Who were those people?
11 A. Janice, Alain, Judy Goldsberry-Weber. There
12 were others done, but those were the three I typed.
13 Q. How did you get the information from them,
14 writing it or from them telling you?
15 A. No, it was from my attorney.
16 Q. No. You made summaries for your attorney or
17 for the attorney?
18 A. No. I transcribed the tape from my attorney.
19 SERGEANT ANDREWS: Bob Johnson was --
20 MR. MCGARRY: I got it.
21 SERGEANT ANDREWS: -- present during the
22 interviews and he ran a tape and I ran a tape, so we
23 had a typed conversation.
24 THE WITNESS: I created those documents
25 and proofread them and that sort of thing.
51
1 MR. MCGARRY: All right. Well, that
2 clears it up for me. Thanks.
3 BY MR. MCGARRY:
4 Q. When did Ben Shaw arrive?
5 A. I think it was December '96.
6 Q. And what is his position?
7 A. His position currently you mean?
8 Q. Uh-huh.
9 A. He's the commanding officer for the Office of
10 Special Affairs at Flag.
11 Q. Whose position did he take?
12 A. He took Humberto's position.
13 Q. Well, who enjoys Brian Anderson's old
14 position?
15 A. Humberto did. Brian was replaced in summer
16 of '96.
17 Q. By Humberto?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. And currently where is Humberto --
20 A. He's --
21 Q. -- right now?
22 A. Where is he located?
23 Q. No. What's his title?
24 A. Oh, he's the social reform officer.
25 Q. Right. And Ben Shaw's title currently?
52
1 A. Commanding officer.
2 Q. Brian Anderson's old position, formerly
3 Humberto's?
4 A. Yeah, formerly -- yeah, two positions ago.
Q. Who's the person in charge from the church --
6 who's the point man from the church on the Lisa
7 McPherson case right now?
8 A. That would be the legal officer, so it would
9 be Glenn, Glenn Stilo.
10 Q. So he's the person if there's a question a
11 lawyer has -- I'm not --
12 MR. LAURO: That's unfair, though,
13 because she's been out of it for, you know, over a
14 year, so she has not been dealing with any of the
15 lawyers, and I think she'd be just speculating on who's
16 dealing with the lawyers.
17 Q. Do you know Mary DeMoss?
18 A. No.
19 MR. MCGARRY: All right. I'm sure these
20 detectives have a couple questions for you.
21 MR. LAURO: Take about a five-minute
22 break? Would that be okay?
23 MR. MCGARRY: Yeah. I was just gonna
24 ask you if you wanted to take a break.
25 (Whereupon, a break was taken.)
53
1 MR. LAURO: We need to clarify a couple
2 things on the record.
3 MR. MCGARRY: Okay.
4 MR. LAURO: If we're back on the record,
5 Mr. McGarry had asked a question about Ms. --
6 Mrs. Fontana's contact with documents, and there were
7 apparently two other instances where Mrs. Fontana may
8 have had contact with some documents relating to Lisa
9 McPherson. She's going to put that an the record.
10 MR. MCGARRY: All right.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay. It was sometime, I
12 think, around -- it was either March, April, May '96
13 which I found an accordion file in -- somewhere in a
14 general files area in OSA which was actually a file
15 that Annie had had, and it was about -- maybe about two
16 inches -- two or three inches thick, and it had some
17 various reports in it. I didn't sit there and flip
18 through it, but the first couple pages I looked at were
19 caretaker reports, and what I did was I actually took
20 the file and brought it down to my attorney at that
21 time, Bob Johnson, and gave it over to him.
22 In terms of what the reports all were,
23 because of the fact I didn't read them, itemize them or
24 whatever, I can't actually tell you that. I can only
25 tell you that it was about two inches thick worth of
54
1 documents, and a couple of them were caretaker reports,
2 but it definitely was not the entirety of it.
3 BY MR. MCGARRY:
4 Q. Was this file -- where -- where exactly was
5 this file located?
6 A. In Annie's office.
7 MR. LAURO: You may want to tell
8 Mr. McGarry why you would be looking for documents at
9 that point.
10 THE WITNESS: Well, I actually wasn't.
11 I was looking for something entirely different.
12 BY MR. MCGARRY:
13 Q. What were you looking for?
14 A. I don't remember. It was something -- it
15 didn't even have to do with Lisa McPherson.
16 Q. Did you tell Annie that you removed a file
17 from her office?
18 A. Yeah. I said, "Annie, what are you doing
19 with this? I thought you said -- you told me you
20 didn't have any documents concerning Lisa McPherson
21 here", and she said, "Oh, I forgot about this one," and
22 so I took it to Bob Johnson.
23 Q. Two-inch thick?
24 A. Yeah. It was about -- yeah, about that
25 (indicating.)
55
1 Q. And that would have been where in
2 relationship to the time that you told me that Annie
3 sent all those other documents to LA?
4 A. About four months after that.
5 Q. So it was four months after that you found
6 more documents in Annie Mora's office that didn't make
7 it to LA?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. And Bob Johnson knew about that, because he
10 was sent those documents?
11 A. Well, he knew about that when I took them to
12 him, sure.
13 Q. Right. Why did you give them to him and not
14 send them out to LA with the rest of the stuff?
15 A. Because of the fact that he and I were
16 working on the McPherson matter.
17 Q. Well, do you see what my question is? Some
18 documents went to LA, some documents went to him.
19 A. Right. But I didn't send anything to LA.
20 And those were PC folders, which is not something that
21 would have gone to Bob Johnson anyway.
22 Q. What capacity were you acting in when you did
23 that?
24 A. As a person --
25 Q. What was your position?
56
1 A. Legal officer.
2 Q. All right. And that's March --
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. -- of '96?
5 A. Well, it was either -- I don't remember if it
6 was March, April or May. It was somewhere within that
7 three-month time period. I don't remember the exact
8 sequence of the time period.
9 Q. And where was that in relationship to going
10 to LA and being gone for the summer?
11 A. Well, that's '97. We're talking about '96
12 right now. March, April, May.
13 Q. So you went to LA this -- this year?
14 A. That's right, in January '97, so it was
15 sometime around March, April, May '96.
16 Q. That you found a two-inch thick --
17 A. File.
18 Q. -- file folder containing Lisa McPherson's --
19 A. Actually, it wasn't a file folder. It was an
20 accordion file.
21 Q. Was it a PC file?
22 A. No.
23 Q. It was just a file? $
24 A. That's right. It was an accordion file.
25 Q. What did it say on the outside of the file?
57
1 A. It didn't say anything. It was just like one
2 of these brown accordion files that are just brown,
3 and, you know, it didn't have a label on it
4 particularly.
5 Q. No label?
6 A. No, unlabeled.
7 Q. With information about caretakers notes at
8 least on the first few pages?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And that was in Annie Mora's office?
ii A. Right.
12 Q. Where in Annie Mora's office?
13 A. Let's see; I think it was in her filing
14 cabinet that I found it.
15 Q. And --
16 A. It was either a filing cabinet or a banker's
17 box. I don't remember which.
18 Q. And you -- you talked to Annie Mora about
19 that?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. And what did you say?
22 A. I said, "I thought you didn't have any files
23 here. Do you have anything else?" And she said, "No."
24 Q. And you're saying after that's when
25 everything went to LA?
58
1 MR. LAURO: No.
2 THE WITNESS: No, no.
3 BY MR. MCGARRY:
4 Q. Before that? Before that everything went to
5 LA?
6 A. Yeah. The sequence was when I came back in
7 January --
8 Q. Of '96?
9 A. -- of '96 I asked Annie -- I was getting
10 information from Annie and Brian as to what had
11 occurred in my absence, what documents could I look at,
12 what was here. What I was given by Annie was just one
13 file folder with these few particles that I was telling
14 you about, these debriefs of the interviews with the
15 police department, et cetera.
16 Q. That was in January?
17 A. That was in January. She had said at that
18 time she had already sent folders out to Los Angeles
19 that had the PC folders in them, and I asked her was
20 there anything else and she said, "No. That's all I
21 remember is the PC folders." I said, "Okay. So you
22 don't have anything else here?" "No, I have nothing
23 else here."
24 Okay. So then I reviewed that one file that
25 I had. Two or three months or four months after that
59
1 was when I found this accordion file that had these
2 reports in them or at least a couple pages of reports.
3 I do remember that one of the other things that was in
4 that file was that summary that you've got over there.
s Q. Uh-huh.
6 A. And I asked her, "Do you have any other
7 documents since you didn't mention this one earlier?"
8 And she said, "No, that's all I have. I forgot about
9 this." I said, "Okay." I took that file and I took it
10 to Bob Johnson that same day.
11 Q. Okay. Throughout all that transaction that
12 you had and interaction you had with Annie you were
13 still the legal officer, right?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. And throughout all that you didn't know who
16 ordered all the PC files to go to LA?
17 A. No.
18 Q. But Annie -- Annie didn't know either, right?
19 She was just directed by --
20 A. Annie -- Annie didn't remember very much
21 about it. I asked her, not specifically, who had
22 ordered it but where did she send them. She couldn't
23 remember exactly where she had sent them other than she
24 had sent them to Los Angeles.
25 Q. Not to a name or anything, just to LA?
60
1 A. Right. She sent them to somebody in LA. She
2 couldn't remember who, and I asked her if she had an
3 itemization of what she sent, and she didn't have that
4 either.
5 Q. And yet you sent the remainder of the stuff
6 that you found to Bob Johnson?
7 A. Well, I actually hand-delivered them. I
8 didn't send them.
9 Q. All right.
10 A. I actually drove them to Bob Johnson that
11 day, yeah.
12 Q. All right. Where are those documents now?
13 A. I don't know where they are now. All I can
14 say is that I took them to Bob Johnson and Bob Johnson
15 at that time, I believe, gave them to somebody else who
16 was here from Los Angeles, Kurt Wieland.
17 Q. Who is he?
18 A. Well, he's a staff member at the Office of
19 Special Affairs International, and I don't know what
20 actually his current position is.
21 Q. So you did know -- so you do know who some
22 documents went to in LA, this guy Wieland, at least the
23 ones from Bob Johnson's --
24 A. Well, that's what Bob told me. He told me
25 that he gave them to Kurt.
61
1 Q. He did?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. When did he tell you that?
4 A. The day that I gave them to him or the day
5 after.
6 Q. How could he do that if you just gave it to
7 him?
8 A. Because we were all in the office together.
9 Q. You gave Bob Johnson the documents?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. He says I'm giving them to so and so --
12 A. Right.
13 Q. -- in California?
14 A. Exactly. Who -- he was also there present in
15 the office at the time.
16 Q. Oh.
17 A. We were all sitting there in the office.
18 Q. So you were having a meeting with some LA
19 people?
20 A. We were all in the office. He was having a
21 meeting -- they were having a meeting about something
22 else. I was having a meeting with Bob about something
23 else, and he said --
24 Q. Unrelated to Lisa McPherson?
25 A. That's right.
62
1 Q. And you just showed up with some expando file
2 with Lisa McPherson's stuff?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. And said oh, by the way, here's some Lisa
5 McPherson stuff? And this guy Wieland said oh, I'll
6 take those?
7 A. No.
8 Q. How'd that go?
9 A. No. Here's what occurred. I drove down to
10 Tampa and gave the documents to Bob Johnson. Kurt
11 Wieland was already separately meeting with him. I
12 said, "Here" --
13 Q. Is this totally coincidental -- coincidence
14 that you happened to --
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. -- hit this thing at the same time Bob
17 Johnson's having this meeting with this Scientologist
18 from California?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. He happened to be down here because it was
22 around the time when some major events were going on.
23 When there is a major event going on we have a lot of
24 people come down to