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Sworn Statement of Debra Jean Cook
| Date: | August 25, 1997 |
| Pages: | 97 |
Captain in Charge, FLAG Service Org
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
IN RE:
INVESTIGATION
ORIGINAL
STATEMENT OF: DEBRA JEAN COOK
DATE: August 25, 1997
TIME: Began: 9:30 a.m.
Ended: 11:45 a.m.
PLACE: Criminal Justice Center
Office of the State Attorney
Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida
REPORTED BY: Ruth M. Martin, CSR, CP, RNR
Registered Merit Reporter
Notary Public
State of Florida at Large
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
Office of the State Attorney
3 Criminal Justice Complex, Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida 33760
4 Attorney for State of Florida
5 ROBERT P. POLLI, ESQUIRE
Robert P. Polli, P.A.
6 Barnett Bank Plaza, Suite 1130
101 East Kennedy Boulevard
7 Tampa, Florida 33602
Attorney for the Witness
8
ALSO PRESENT:
9
LEE STROPE, Special Agent
10 Florida Department of Law Enforcement
11 WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
City of Clearwater Police Department
12
13
14
15
16
17
18 INDEX
PAGE
19 EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. McGARRY 3
BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS 66
21 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE 89
22
23 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 97
24
25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
3
1 The deponent herein,
2 DEBRA JEAN COOK,
3 being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
5 examined and testified as follows:
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. McGARRY:
8 Q. All right. Your name for the record, please.
9 A. Debbie Cook. Debra Jean Cook.
10 Q. All right.
11 MR. McGARRY: Would you like to place
12 something on the record?
13 MR. POLLI: Thank you.
14 I'm Robert Polli. I represent Miss Cook in
15 this matter.
16 We are here today pursuant to a
17 State Attorney Investigation subpoena. I've talked to
18 Miss Cook about the Statutory protections inherent in
19 one of these subpoenas. She understands what her
20 obligations are, she also understands what her
21 protections are, and we are ready to proceed
22 accordingly.
23 BY MR. McGARRY:
24 Q. All right. My name is Mark McGarry. I'm going to
25 be asking you some questions about your involvement with the
4
1 Church of Scientology as well as some specific questions in
2 reference to a parishioner, Lisa McPherson.
3 Some background information I'm going to need:
4 Your date of birth?
5 A. X, 1961.
6 Q. And you're a U.S. citizen?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where do you live?
9 A. I live in Clearwater, Florida, at the Hacienda.
10 Q. Hacienda, we're familiar with the place.
11 The position that you hold now at the Church?
12 A. I'm the Captain or the In Charge of the
13 Flag Service Org.
14 Q. We're going to have to go into that in a second,
15 find out exactly how that fits into the hierarchy thing.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. How long have you been in Clearwater?
18 A. Since 1979.
19 Q. All right. And have you been a member of the
20 church since '79?
21 A. I was a member of the Church prior to that. I've
22 been on Staff here since 1979.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. I was a member of the Church since 1976.
25 Q. And where was that?
5
1 A. That was in Charlotte, North Carolina.
2 Q. All right. Is that where you grew up?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How did you become acquainted with the
5 Church of Scientology?
6 A. My brother, actually, introduced me to
7 Scientology. And there was a -- a smaller -- a Mission
8 there in North Carolina that we went to.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Did some courses.
11 Q. And were you a member of Staff in North Carolina
12 or is that not till you came to Clearwater?
13 A. No, I was actually also Staff there at the Mission
14 in -- let me see. About 1977, '78.
15 Q. Okay. And how did you come to move to Clearwater?
16 A. I wanted to -- well, Flag was sort of the top
17 organization, and I wanted to come work here. So I came
18 down -- drove down here to find out if I could work here at
19 Flag.
20 Q. All right. And they said yes?
21 A. They said yes.
22 Q. And that was in 1979?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. And how far does your education go?
25 A. High school diploma.
6
1 Q. Okay. What position did you start out -- you
2 started out with training courses, I assume, in '79 to
3 prepare you for Staff?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What was your first Staff post?
6 A. I was -- actually worked out in the nursery where
7 we had the Staff children and helped care for the Staff
8 children, that was my first position.
9 Q. And why don't you go through your posts for me, if
10 you can remember them. Just the highlights, if you would.
11 A. Okay. Well, mostly I have been in like a
12 technical line. I was Auditor for many years, and I was
13 also a Supervisor, where we had our course rooms and I would
14 supervise students who were training in Scientology. And --
15 and then I -- then I was sort of like the
16 Director of Training.
17 And then I went to an executive position. I was
18 like the Deputy -- Deputy Captain for a couple of years.
19 And then I held Captain temporarily while the Captain -- the
20 one guy who had been the Captain went off for training. And
21 then after he finished his training, it was determined to
22 keep me on as Captain and he actually went into an even
23 higher position.
24 Q. And who is that person?
25 A. Ron Norton.
7
1 Q. Who?
2 A. Ron Norton.
3 Q. Is he still in Clearwater?
4 A. No, he's in L.A.. He went to L.A. -- oh, I don't
5 know. Let's see. That was 1990. I've been the Captain for
6 about almost eight years.
7 Q. All right. Who is your Senior in Clearwater?
8 A. I don't actually have one in Clearwater. My
9 Senior is in L.A.
10 Q. Who is?
11 A. Her name is Caroline Spatta.
12 Q. Caroline?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. S-p --
15 A. S-p-a-t-t-a.
16 Q. And her title?
17 A. She's the FLB Programs Chief, stands for Flag Land
18 Base Programs Chief.
19 Q. Now, on the board, it's been drawn up for us a
20 couple times, but I'll let the -- the technical people here
21 handle that in their questions, but Brian Anderson would
22 be -- I know he's got a different position now.
23 Back in '95, when we're talking about this
24 Lisa McPherson thing, he would be where on the board for --
25 as far as in relationship to you? Could he tell you what to
8
1 do or vice-versa, or were you just in two separate
2 organizations? You're in OSA and he's -- why don't you
3 explain it.
4 A. Okay. He's in OSA, Office of Special Affairs, and
5 we actually don't have a command over each other at all.
6 Q. Right.
7 A. The way the Church is set up is somewhat where
8 there are -- there's like the major organization that
9 delivers the Scientology services, which is what I run. And
10 then there are some additional networks that are considered
11 separate, so that, you know, the organization can always
12 stay in check, so that there's not like just one dictator or
13 something.
14 So that's kind of how it's set up, is that the --
15 the Office of special Affairs is a separate network that I
16 don't have command over, but they also don't have command
17 over me.
18 Q. So you're more on the services end of it all?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. Which is training and all that?
21 A. And auditing, yes.
22 Q. Let's talk about your spiritual level now. How
23 far have you attained on the spiritual side of training?
24 A. OT-V. That's --
25 Q. That's pretty high, right?
9
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How far passed Clear is that?
3 A. That's basically five levels passed Clear.
4 Q. Okay. Clear, and then you go OT levels after
5 that?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. Till what? How far do they go, VIII?
8 A. Up to VIII, right.
9 Q. Up to VIII.
10 I've met an OT-VIII. Dr. Minkoff --
11 A. Right.
12 Q. -- is an OT-VIII.
13 A. That's right.
14 . Q. Do you know him?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. How do you know him?
17 A. He does courses at -- at Flag.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. I've also been to him as a doctor twice when I had
20 the flu.
21 Q. Does he service parishioners and Staff members as
22 well on a regular basis?
23 A. I don't know if they call it regular basis, but he
24 does -- I do know that there are Staff that have gone to him
25 as a local doctor. He -- he now has -- has a place that's
10
1 pretty near Flag, which makes it --
2 Q. His office, you mean?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. He's moved it from one place to another?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. He's still the resident emergency room physician
7 up in New Port Richey, right, or do you know?
8 A. I think so. I'm actually not sure, yeah.
9 Q. Is there some kind of written agreement or
10 document that he has on file at the Church that makes him
11 available for services --
12 A. No.
13 Q. -- that you're aware of?
14 A. No, not that I'm aware.
15 Q. You're saying no, you're not aware of it or no,
16 there isn't one?
17 A. No, I'm not aware of any.
18 Q. Okay. Who works for you in your -- your end of
19 the organization?
20 A. Well, I have about 650 staff under me.
21 Q. Right. Let's start with somebody more immediate
22 underneath you. Who is your immediate assistant?
23 A. Well, I have four people that are very directly
24 under me. Which is Janet Herring, Triston Bucannon.
25 Q. All right.
11
1 A. Guy named Biseal, it's kind of a funny name, and
2 the President, which is Mary Voegeding.
3 Q. Mary, spell the last name?
4 A. V-o-e-g-e-d-i-n-g.
5 Q. And you called her President?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That sounds important. Is that -- what does she
8 do?
9 A. She mostly handles any VIP or celebrities that we
10 have that come for service, and she kind of takes the extra
11 special care to, you know, make sure that they're taken care
12 of. I -- it's also a point where I -- I am not really sort
13 of -- she's kind of like a front lines -- front person so
14 that, you know, people that want to talk to the top dog can
15 talk to her as opposed to me, so that I can get on with
16 running things.
17 Q. When did you first meet Lisa McPherson?
18 A. The first time that I met her was when her -- the
19 company that she works for moved to Clearwater and they were
20 taken on a tour of the Flag facilities, some of the -- some
21 of the staff. I think it was about ten of the staff.
22 Q. What company was that, do you remember?
23 A. I know it's the company that Benetta Slaughter
24 runs. Actually, I don't know the name of it. I know it's a
25 printing --
12
1 Q. Publishing company?
2 A. -- or publishing company, right.
3 Q. Benetta Slaughter, is she in charge of that
4 company?
5 A. I believe so.
6 Q. Okay. And that was Lisa's boss, correct?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. All right. So that is when you first met
9 Lisa McPherson?
10 A. Yes. I mean, I met them as a group, welcomed
11 them.
12 Q. How many people came with that company, do you
13 remember?
14 A. I don't know. I know that when I -- I saw them
15 touring, it was about ten of them.
16 Q. Ten?
17 A. I don't know how many total. I know that together
18 as a group when they were at Flag touring that day there was
19 ten. I don't know how many total staff they have.
20 Q. All right. And they relocated the business in
21 Clearwater?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. From Dallas?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay.
13
1 A. Or -- I'm not sure. Texas, I know, but --
2 Q. Texas?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Texas somewhere?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. So other than just saying, nice to meet you,
7 that's as far as the first meeting with Lisa McPherson?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Okay. Do you remember when this was, what year it
10 was? .
11 A. I don't know exactly. Yeah, I don't know, I
12 couldn't tell you really.
13 Q. Okay. Let's narrow it down just by time frame.
14 She went into the Cabana for isolation or for a watch in
15 November of '95.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Would it have been in '95, earlier in '95, or
18 would it have been before that, or do you know?
19 A. I would --
20 Q. If you don't remember, that's fine.
21 A. I could guess it was early '95.
22 Q. Okay. Did you have any further contact with her
23 after that initial introduction with her?
24 A. I awarded her cert on stage. Every -- every week
25 I do graduation, and anybody who's completed a course or a
14
1 major auditing action gets awarded a cert. So every week we
2 probably --
3 Q. "Cert" is short for certificate?
4 A. Sorry. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Every week we probably award over 100
7 certificates. And there was, you know, one week where she
8 came up and she was awarded a certificate.
9 Q. Do you remember which level she had attained?
10 A. Clear.
11 Q. She was Clear. That's a biggy, right?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. That's the first major certificate that you get
14 before you move on to the upper level courses?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. All right. Do you remember when that was that she
17 attained that certificate?
18 A. I think it was maybe mid -- I don't know. No, I
19 don't remember exactly. It seems like it was a few months
20 before everything happened.
21 Q. Well, - I have some references here.
22 MR. McGARRY: When was that, guys?
23 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: September.
24 MR. McGARRY: September?
25 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: I think
15
1 September.
2 Q. Does that sound correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. No tricks here.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Is that awards thing for Clear, is that bigger
7 than your regular certificate or regular course level
8 achievement?
9 A. Is it bigger in size or a bigger deal?
10 Q. Bigger deal. Both, I mean.
11 A. I mean -- I would say that, yes, it's -- it's not
12 like -- there are a number of things that are considered
13 a -- a big deal. But yeah, it's definitely considered an
14 achievement of, you know, importance.
15 Q. Right.
16 Were you aware that sometime following that she
17 had her -- a bit of a problem mentally that, I think, was
18 addressed by the Church that summer?
19 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: It would have
20 been prior to it.
21 MR. McGARRY: It was prior to Clear?
22 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Prior to
23 September. June or July somewhere.
24 MR. McGARRY: Oh, I'm sorry.
25 Oh, you're right. Sure enough.
16
1 Q. Were you aware of that, she had a mental break
2 prior to September being found Clear or attaining Clear?
3 A. I wasn't.
4 Q. You weren't privy to that information?
S A. No.
6 Q. All right. We'll move more towards November.
7 Did you have any contact with her after she
8 attained the status of Clear --
9. A. No.
10 Q. -- until she was given the room at the Cabana
11 section of the hotel?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You didn't?
14 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
15 Q. All right. When did you first learn that she was
16 going to be provided a room at the Cabana section of the
17 hotel for some relaxation?
18 A. Well, I heard that -- that she'd had a minor
19 accident and that she had taken her clothes off on -- I
20 think it was maybe Highway 19. And then -- and that she was
21 at the hospital. And then probably a day or two later. I
22 heard that she was staying at the Fort Harrison.
23 Q. So you weren't involved in the commotion that was
24 stirred up when she actually was at Morton Plant Hospital?
25 Were you involved in any of that?
17
1 A. No, I was not.
2 Q. Was anybody in your staff that worked for you
3 involved in that?
4 A. Well, I do -- I am now since aware of the fact
5 that Al in and Judy Goldsberry-Weber were down there.
6 Q. Okay. They work for you, right?
7 A. Yes, they do.
8 Q. So you learned that they went down there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you also learned that some members of the OSA
11 side of things were also down there?
12 A. Actually, I was not aware of that.
13 MR. McGARRY: Is there anybody from OSA that
14 went down there?
15 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Yeah.
16 Humberto Fontana, Annie Mora.
17 MR. McGARRY: Right.
18 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: I think some
19 others, but those are the two kind of main characters
20 that were there.
21 Q. You weren't aware of them going down there?
22 A. I wasn't.
23 Q. All right. What position did Alain Kartuzinski
24 have underneath you?
25 A. He was -- at the time he was the Senior Case
18
1 Supervisor.
2 Q. And Judy Weber, her position was what?
3 A. She worked in the Medical Liaison Office.
4 Q. All right. Were they given instructions to go
5 down to Morton Plant or did they act on their own, or do you
6 know?
7 A. I don't know. I mean, they weren't given
8 instructions from me, but I actually don't know if they
9 were.
10 Q. Who was Mr. Kartuzinski's immediate supervisor?
11 A. At the time -- I'm not sure.
12 (Pause.)
13 A. I mean, the -- I mean, the positions above him are
14 the Director of Correction, and then there's the -- the
15 Qual Sec, the Qualifications Sec. Those are the -- the two
16 positions above him. I'm trying to remember who was
17 actually holding those at the time.
18 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Maybe to help
19 you a little bit, somebody brought up Mr. Reese.
20 THE WITNESS: No, Richard Reese actually is
21 the Senior CS. And he went for training and Alain was
22 temporarily holding that position while Richard
23 trained...
24 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Okay.
25 THE WITNESS: So Richard really --
19
1 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: He wasn't the
2 Director of Correction then?
3 THE WITNESS: No, unh-unh.
4 Q. If you can think of it, would you --
5 A. Yes, I definitely will.
6 Q. -- bring it up?
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. How about Judy Weber, her supervisor?
9 A. Let's see. I know that -- well, in the MLO area
10 was Judy, Janice, Laura. I guess above them would have been
11 A.J. Sprecher, yeah.
12 Q. In the MLO office?
13 A. No, I mean the department she was in. The
14 department -- the head of the department was A.J. Sprecher.
15 In terms of who was overall in charge of the --
16 But A.J. was an assistant to Mr. Kartuzinski
17 though, correct?
18 A. No.
19 Q. She's under Kartuzinski; is that right?
20 A. No.
21 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: that was
22 Lacy Spencer. We talked to A.J.
23 MR.McGARRY: Right.
24 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: She sort of was
25 the boss that's kind of a technical boss, she really
20
1 wasn't involved in the medical.
2 THE WITNESS: That's right. She's like the
3 head of the department. Medical is kind of like a
4 section, and there's about five different sections.
5 Q. The answer to who sent Kartuzinski and Judy Weber
6 down to Morton Plant you don't know. And if it was somebody
7 else, it might have been Security who says, hey, there's a
8 problem?
9 A. Yeah. Just as a point, if a Staff member or
10 Public goes -- gets rushed to the hospital or something,
11 that's generally who would go down to find out, you know,
12 what's happening, is there any assistance that we can give,
13 that type of thing. So the MLO area would generally act on
14 its own on that.
15 Q. Right. Well, that's -- that's kind of where I'm
16 going, is that we talked to some MLO people and they said
17 that typically a member from the Medical Liaison Office goes
18 down there and meets with the parishioner or Staff, but this
19 is kind of unusual because Lisa McPherson shows up down
20 there and two or three members from OSA show up and two or
21 three members from your end of it show up, and by the time
22 it's all said and done with there's probably eight or more,
23 ten --
24 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Eight to ten, right.
25 Q. -- eight to ten members of the Church that are
21
1 down there fussing over Lisa McPherson.
2 And I was -- my question is, is that a normal
3 scenario as far as you're concerned?
4 A. No, that wouldn't be a normal scenario.
5 Q. Why was that an exception to the general rule?
6 A. Well, I mean, I can only -- you know, I can
7 suppose what it would have been.
8 Q. Right.
9 A. Which is, No. 1, I know that there was some
10 concern about her being admitted into a psychiatric facility
11 of some sort. And I also think that it's not usual that a
12 Church member takes off their clothes and walks down the
13 street. And so it was also probably a little bit
14 concerning, you know.
15 Q. Okay. That's -- that's what I thought.
16 So the following day is when you found out about
17 this car accident?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And did you talk to Mr. Kartuzinski about what his
20 plans were going to be for Lisa McPherson?
21 A. I didn't, no.
22 Q. Who did? Who -- my question is, who's -- who's
23 keeping check on Kartuzinski's plan here? Who's his Senior?
24 We're back to that again.
25 A. Well --
22
1 Q. Who does he report to, Kartuzinski? Anybody on
2 the OSA side of things? Anderson, any of those people?
3 A. No.
4 Q. None of them?
5 A. I mean, the -- the way -- part of the way things
6 are set up a little bit is that he's -- he, the Senior CS,
7 is sort of the Senior technical person. I run more of the
8 sort of organizational runnings of the -- the organizational
9 operations. And he was sort of really considered -- I mean,
10 that position is the chief -- chief technical guy.
11 Q. All right. Well, I've been told by numerous
12 people that he's the guy that was in charge of bringing
13 Lisa McPherson back down to earth. Would you agree with
14 that statement?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. My question is, who did he report to
17 directly in reference to -- if somebody above him in your
18 organization wants to know, hey, how about that nut we got
19 down the Cabana, how's she doing, who is that person asking
20 him? Who is that person, you?
21 A. No. I mean, I wouldn't be dealing with Alain
22 directly. There are -- there's basically a whole
23 organizational chart. I mean, above him is -- there's a
24 Director of Correction, there's a Qualifications Secretary,
25 there's a Chief Officer and then there's me.
23
1 Q. And he reports to those people?
2 A. Yeah. I mean, generally you would report to your
3 next Senior and they would report up, you know, to their
4 next Senior.
5 Q. Okay. Well, she was there for, we now know,
6 services rather than rest and relaxation. Would you agree
7 with that statement?
8 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
9 Q. You would not agree with that statement?
10 MR. POLLI: You have to answer yes or no.
11 A. No.
12 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
13 MR. McGARRY: For Ruth here.
14 A. Not -- not to my knowledge. I -- what I knew that
15 she was there for was rest, to rest and recuperate.
16 Q. Well, I just asked you if Mr. Kartuzinski was in
17 charge of bringing her back to earth and I kind of was under
18 the opinion that that involved some type of procedure.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. So it did not involve a procedure? There was not
21 going to be a procedure run on her?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I don't want to look like I'm tricking you. I've
24 had people tell me -- I've interviewed, dozens, dozens of
25 Scientologists. Many of them said, yeah, she was there for
24
1 an isolation watch, we're going to stabilize her and we're
2 going to put her through an Introspection Rundown.
3 A. Yeah, that's the idea.
4 Q. She was there for services? The answer to the
5 question, that's a yes or no?
6 A. I don't feel like it's a yes or a no. She flipped
7 or whatever. The idea is, what I understand, is the rest
8 and relaxation would ideally bring you back down to the
9 ground, because you can't get auditing in that kind of
10 state.
11 Q. I've heard that. Many people that said that.
12 A. I don't know that anyone ever discussed with her,
13 okay, this is the plan. It was kind of like, okay, you
14 know, let's sleep, let's eat. And that -- that was
15 certainly the intention, was to --
16 Q. Well, she was paying for it. It's not a free
17 service.
18 A. Well, she wasn't -- she didn't receive any
19 service.
20 Q. They didn't get to it because she didn't clear
21 enough -- she didn't stable enough to receive it.
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. But the plan was she was going to get services.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the original service was rest, relaxation,
25
1 stabilization, 'cause you can't get auditing until you get
2 that, right?
3 A. (The witness nods affirmatively.)
4 Q. And then after that, the next step?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. And you've got to pay for that
7 Introspection Rundown, that ain't a free course?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Is. that correct?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. So she was there for services, ultimately for
12 services? Yes? No?
13 A. Yeah, ultimately that was our intention, would be
14 to-- to help sort matters out.
15 Q. All right. So this plan was ultimately being
16 implemented by who?
17 A. I mean, I -- I'll say that Alain would have been
18 the -- was the one who --
19 Q. Implements this procedure?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. That's what his job does, correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Okay. And who -- who follows his orders to do
24 that? My understanding is he ain't down there every day.
25 A. That's correct.
26
1 Q. Do you know -~ did he go down there, do you know,
2 to see her?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. You don't know the answer to that?
5 A. Don't know.
6 Q. Who would know the answer to that?
7 A. I don't know. I mean, Alain or the -- the people
8 on the watch would have, you know.
9 Q. Okay. All right. Who did he entrust with
10 implementing this service plan, stabilization plan? Who's
11 in charge of that from him? If he wasn't down there every
12 day, then there had to be somebody in charge of that. Who's
13 that?
14 A. I don't know of anyone that was in charge of it.
15 I know that -- I don't even know exactly who set up the
16 different staff to watch her. I know that -- I know that
17 something was organized originally to -- to have someone
18 with her at all times, and staff were somehow named to --
19 you know, females that could do this. And I know that they
20 wrote, you know, periodic reports on how she was doing that
21 went to Alain.
22 Q. Okay. So you're not aware of the organizational
23 implementation of the -- of the watch or schedules or who
24 did any of that?
25 A. No. I mean --
27
1 Q. But you became aware that it was done that way,
2 right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And who would the reports go to, Mr. Kartuzinski?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. And then who?
7 A. I don't know of anybody else that they went to
8 other than him.
9 Q. Okay. The person that we can't remember the name
10 of, the Director over -- what was his title,
11 Director of something or other, over Kartuzinski? What's
12 his title?
13 A. Director of Correction.
14 Q. Director of Correction?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. Give me his job description. What does that guy
17 do?
18 A. Well, that's -- that's another department and it
19 handles -- it has a section for the Senior CS section, it
20 also has a section that's called Cramming, which is where --
21 Q. I'm familiar with the term.
22 A. Okay. And then it's also got another section
23 which is the internship, where someone who has done an
24 Auditor course can then intern, basically similar to how
25 a -- you know, other internships would be, where basically
28
1 you audit and perfect your skills.
2 Q. Who does that now?
3 A. The Director of Correction?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Her name is Inbal Sheer. She's from Tel Aviv.
6 Q. How long has she been employed in that position?
7 A. Really, only a few months.
8 Q. Do you remember who it was that did it before her?
9 A. Prior to that was Linda Thames, T-h-a-m-e-s. But
10 I don't know if she was on at that time.
11 Q. Well, that's what --
12 A. I'm not sure.
13 Q. Thinking it though, I bet if I asked Linda who did
14 it before her, we might get all the way back who did it for
15 Alain Kartuzinski, do you think?
16 A. Could be.
17 I'm sorry, I really would tell you if I could
18 remember.
19 Q. All right. So now my questions are going to focus
20 a little bit on some of this recordkeeping business, because
21 I think you being on this side of the service oriented end
22 of the scale here, you probably, of all the people that I've
23 talked to, have more knowledge about how folders are
24 organized and kept, because that's more towards your end of,
25 it, right?
29
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. As opposed to the. Brian Andersons and people on
3 that side of it, correct?
4 A. That's correct.
s Q. Okay. Good. 'Cause we talked with -- last Friday
6 we talked with Annie Mora. She works for you, right?
7 A. No, Annie Mora is on the Brian side.
8 Q. That's right, she's on the OSA side. But she did
9 a few things in reference to those folders that were kind of
10 curious.
11 Who -- well, before we go to that, back to the
12 Cabana section period here. The period of time that Lisa
13 was staying at the Cabana section, were you being updated on
14 how she was doing?
15 A. Yes, I was, very periodically. I mean, not an
16 every day report, but periodically updated on things that
17 were happening.
18 Q. And that communication was verbal or written?
19 A. Verbal.
20 Q. And by whom?
21 A. Well, different people, really. I mean, there was
22 a couple of times that I talked to Alain. There was a
23 couple of times that I talked to Janet. And a few times I
24 talked to Marcus.
25 Q. Quirino?
30
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. And Janet or Janice?
3 A. Janet, Janet Herring.
4 Q. Okay. And those reports consisted of, she's not
5 doing so good, she's beating up caretakers, et cetera?
6 A. Yeah. I mean, they varied. Some reports seemed
7 positive, you know, that she seemed to be doing better, she
8 ate better that day or she slept a bit more or -- then there
9 were some reports of, you know, her beating up or punching a
10 staff member, you know, violence, some violence, that type
11 of thing.
12 Q. All right. Since you're the Captain, if -- if
13 Lisa wanted to leave or go see her mom or go to the hospital
14 or do something contrary to what was happening there at the
15 Cabana, who would make that decision?
16 A. Well, she could make that decision. I mean, she
17 was not forceably held there. Nobody's forceably held.
18 Q. Are you aware of her ever making that request?
19 A. No, I'm not.
20 Q. Would Kartuzinski have to come to you to see that
21 that occurred, if she wanted to leave?
22 A. No, definitely not.
23 Q. He could do it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How about the head of Security, Baxter,
31
1 Kellerhaus, any of those guys?
2 A. As far as I understand, it's not a decision that
3 any one of us would have necessarily made. I mean, I guess,
4 of course, if she was naked and had a knife or something,
5 you know, I'm sure that Security probably wouldn't have let
6 her just run wild.
7 Q. Okay. All right. When did you first realize or
8 when was the information passed on to you that there was --
9 that she had passed away or she died?
10 A. The day that it happened. That night. I got -- I
11 was told -- trying to even remember who told me. I think it
12 as either -- it was either Marcus or Janet who told me.
13 Someone had just received a call from Janice.
14 Q. Up at the New Port Richey Hospital?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. You don't remember who that was?
17 A. I -- I don't know that I knew who it was. I know
18 that she'd called in and reported that --
19 Q. What time was that?
20 A. It was in the evening. I don't know exactly what
21 time.
22 Q. Well, was it --
23 MR. McGARRY: She died what time, fellows?
24 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: About 9:30.
25 Q. So it was after 9:30?
32
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. I mean, I know she had died. When we got the call
4 it was already done.
5 Q. Being the Captain, did you take some action from
6 that? Did you give any orders out? What was -- what was
7 your -- what procedures did you take from there?
8 A. Well, it was, of course, very shocking. I --
9 actually, I -- I ran across the street from the building I
10 was in to the -- the building where OSA is and where Brian
11 was to find out what he knew and look into -- start looking
12 into what had happened.
13 Q. Okay. Who's over there when you get there? Is
14 Brian there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was Marcus Quirino there?
17 A. No. No. I mean, I think Marcus may have come
18 over after that.
19 Q. How about the Fontanas, Judy or Humberto?
20 A. I believe -- it seems like Humberto was there.
21 I'm not a hundred percent positive.
22 Q. Kellerhaus? Baxter?
23 A. No. I mean, this was pretty immediate. I guess
24 as soon as we heard I ran over there. So there wasn't that.
25 many people there yet.
33
1 And then shortly after that Brian got a call
2 from -- I think it was Brian got a call from Janice, which
3 brought up -- Janice felt convinced that Lisa had meningitis
4 or had died of meningitis. Somehow she felt very alarmed
5 that this was what had caused her death. And so then
6 shortly after that really what proceeded was majorly an
7 evolution to isolate -- find out who she'd been in contact
8 with and isolate any of the staff or anybody who had been
9 with her until this was checked out.
10 Q. Whose office is this conversation taking place in?
11 A. This -- well, initially it was in Brian's office.
12 And then we ran -- then I ran back across the street to the
13 Coachman Building, which was where we started to organize
14 the isolation cycle.
15 Q. Did Brian Anderson go with you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Who did?
18 A. I don't know if anyone physically went with me.
19 Up -- in the Coachman there was Marcus and Janet, yeah, and
20 they were -- I don't know, I guess we had other staff that
21 had to be -- we grabbed some other staff to help round up
22 the other - the people that had to be found and located.
23 Q. All right. I'm not sure I got the answer. When
24 you first went and heard that Lisa had died and you went
25 over to Anderson's office --
34
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- that's over at OSA --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- who, was there besides Brian Anderson? I think
5 you said Quirino was there?
6 A. Yeah, I think he came --
7 Q. Anderson was there?
8 A. Marcus came afterwards. I'm pretty sure Humberto
9 was there. Judy Fontana might have been there, I'm not
10 totally positive.
11 Q. Okay. Were you physically present when -- when
12 Brian had the conversation with Janice on the phone?
13 A. I was -- let me think about that. I know that
14 Brian was on the -- got off the phone. I'm -- I mean, I
15 guess I assumed that he talked to Janice. It was a little
16 bit -- you know, everyone was a little bit freaked out. It
17 was sort of different, you know, what was going on, you
18 know. I assumed that he was speaking to Janice, although it
19 was a little bit slightly distant away from where I was.
20 And after he got off the phone, that was when he
21 brought up this point about the concern about meningitis.
22 And then we started to get, more information about this,
23 what -- what -- you know, what is this, what does it entail,
24 who would have to be isolated, how dangerous is this.
25 Q. Okay. Do you recall him having a conversation
35
1 with Dr. Minkoff while you were standing there?
2 A. No, I do not.
3 Q. Okay. So you don't know whether he did or not?
4 A. No. I recall -- I recall later that he did have
5 a -- he told me of a conversation that he had with Minkoff
6 about the meningitis tests that were being done and how long
7 it would take.
8 Q. That was later on that night?
9 A. From what I recall, that was -- actually, it was
10 either later that night or the very next day. That might
11 have been the next day. 'Cause I remember somehow it
12 took -- there was a time lapse that -- you know, before we
13 would even know what -- if that was the case or what was the
14 cause of the death.
15 Q. So you went over the Coachman Building. What time
16 was that?
17 A. I don't know. It was probably around midnight.
18 Maybe 11:00, midnight. Maybe 11:00, maybe 10:30, I don't
19 know. I don't know exactly. It was towards the -- pretty
20 close to the end, you know, end of the night.
21 Q. End of the day?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. And who was there with you, Quirino and who else?
24 A. Marcus Quirino, Janet Herring, yeah.
25 Q. All right. And the purpose of going over there
36
1 was to do what?
2 A. To organize the isolation.
3 Q. Of the people that had contact with Lisa?
4, A. That's right.
5 Q. Okay. Who provided you with the list of names
6 that had been watching Lisa?
7 A. Well, we got --we started to -- to get some --
8 immediately we got any of the people who had been working in
9 the MLO area up first.
10 Q. They were summoned immediately?
11 A. Yeah. Because what -- well, we knew that -- I
12 guess to find out who had -- who all had been with her.
13 Q. Okay. So some of the MLO --
14 A. Like Emma. Emma and Judy.
15 Q. And they gave you the names of people that were on
16 the watch?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then what did you do when faced with that
19 information?
20 A. Well, I know that -- I remember that Marcus
21 interviewed -- interviewed them to find out about what
22 contact they had had, what contact they had with other
23 people in order to find that out, find out the information.
24 Q. Yes. And did he also -- was this done in your
25 presence?
37
1 A. Well, I mean, it was all up on the same floor. He
2 was in the -- I think he was in the conference room. I
3 mean, I was sort of more across the hall, but maybe a little
4 bit in and out. So there was maybe a couple minutes of, you
5 can, hearing some of it. Very much so in and out, running
6 around, making sure that people were doing their various
7 parts of this.
8 Q. And this communication that he was getting from
9 the caretakers, did he write this stuff down himself?
10 A. I think he was taking notes, yeah.
11 Q. All right. Did he also require them to write down
12 what they observed in their contact that they had with Lisa?
13 A. I don't know on that. I know that he was --
14 Q. All right.
15 A. I know that he was interviewing people and
16 taking -- I think I saw him taking notes.
17 Q. Was Brian Anderson over there too?
18 A. Yeah, Brian came over briefly. Yeah, he came over
19 briefly.
20 Q. Yes?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. And what was his role?
23 A. I don't know exactly. I don't know. He was, I
24 guess -- I know that our major concern at that point was
25 whether or not -- I also -- before I went through having to
38
1 isolate some, I don't know how many staff, I wanted to know
2 if this was really necessary, you know, if we had gotten any
3 more conclusive information. That was really all I remember
4 talking to him about.
5 Q. Did he ever read these summations from
6 Marcus Quirino or look at the caretakers' reports that you
7 know of?
8 A. I don't know specifically. I know that pretty
9 much everything that we had was -- was turned over to OSA,
10 so it's highly probable.
11 Q. Everything you had?
12 A. No, I didn't have anything myself. But everything
13 that --
14 Q. Everything from your department?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Did you read or look at any of these documents
17 that were created by Marcus Quirino and/or the caretakers
18 and their summations?
19 A. I never saw Marcus' write-ups. I saw a summary
20 there he wrote up after -- after the interviews.
21 In terms of caretaker reports, initially when I
22 first learned that Lisa had died and when I first ran over
23 across the street, the folder was brought over there and I
24 did start to look through it to find out, you know, what --
25 Q. Which folder?
39
1 A. Her PC folder.
2 Q. Okay. From your department where the PC folder
3 was located?
4 A. I didn't understand that.
5 Q. Her auditing folder?
6 A. But I didn't understand the question.
7 Q. Folders are very complicated subject matter for
8 you guys, you have so many folders for so many things in the
9 Church.
10 A. Right.
11 Q. The folder that you're talking about that you took
12 over to the Coachman Building, that was her PC folder?
13 A. That was her PC folder.
14 Q. That contains her auditing sessions?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And notes from the people that audit her, correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And that file also is where I've been told that
19 the caretakers' notes were directed to after
20 Alain Kartuzinski reviewed them.
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. Is that correct?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. Okay. Now, is that one folder? Or when you say
25 "folder," that may comprise a stack of folders that are all
40
1 PC folders?
2 A. I -- I saw her one -- the one folder, which is the
3 most -- was the most recent folder, I mean.
4 Q. Okay. And that would contain the caretakers'
5 notes of their observations of Lisa during her stay at the
6 Cabana?
7 A. That's correct. And I did see some of those.
8 Q. All right. Now, that folder, where is that kept?
9 Where did you get that folder in your building?
10 A. I don't know where the folder came from exactly.
11 I had assumed that -- I mean, I think the folder mostly
12 stayed in Alain's office. I had assumed it came from
13 Alain's office.
14 Q. Because it was an open file and he was actively
15 working on it, I assume?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. And so that it wouldn't be in a warehouse --
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. -- because he's receiving daily reports in it,
20 correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. All right. So who is the person that actually
23 retrieved the folder and handed it to you? Do we know that
24 person's name? Was it Mr. Kartuzinski or was it an
25 assistant or was it somebody else?
41
1 A. (No response.)
2 Q. This occurred December 5th, right, the night she
3 died?
4 A. That's right. That's correct.
5 I don't know. I mean, we have people who their
6 whole job is to simply move folders around.
7 Q. You've got runners and all kinds --
8 A. Yeah. It was -- from what I remember --
9 Q. You had the power to say get me her PC folder and
10 whoever's standing around's going to do that, correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And that was done and it was handed to you?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Okay. Now, you carried that folder where, you
15 personally, over to where?
16 A. No, I -- I was in the OSA office when I asked for
17 the folder and it got brought to me.
18 Q. Oh, somebody ran over and got it and brought it
19 back?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. So being Clear, you're able to look in that folder
22 and see what's in there?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Anybody else that's not Clear, that would probably
25 not be such a good idea, right?
42
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Contained within that folder, her most recent
3 folder, was nothing but caretaker notes or caretaker notes
4 plus her last auditing session or what? Can you describe it
5 to me?
6 A. Yes. There is sort of an administrative way that
7 these folders are kept. Like, for example, always in the
8 most recent folder you'll have any auditing programs like
9 clipped to the left side. So, you know, any -- any auditing
10 that she's had ever, there will be a record of that on
11 the -- the left side. In the -- also there's, on the other
12 side, in the back you'll always have what's called a folder
13 error summary. And that would be, you know, any earlier
14 auditing that gets reviewed, and any errors that have been
15 made are noted on this.
16 And then otherwise there was really -- I mean, I
17 didn't make it through the whole folder. I flipped through
18 the folder, I read the recent -- flipped through, you know,
19 the recent caretaker reports, basically, was majorly what I
20 looked at.
21 Q. And how thick would you describe that folder?
22 A. The total folder was probably, I don't know,
23 couple inches.
24 Q. Couple inches thick?
25 A. Uh-huh.
43
1 Q. And my question -- did you answer my question
2 about whether or not it contained just caretakers' notes or
3 there were also auditing notes in there from her last
4 session auditing?
5 I know you just explained what the run sheets were
6 on both sides as far as her programs are concerned and the
7 FES side of it and all, but were there other items in there
8 in reference to her last auditing session or was it just
9 predominantly caretakers' reports?
10 A. It -- to be honest, I don't know. I didn't go
11 through the whole folder. But it didn't look to me like it
12 was only caretaker reports, because they're generally single
13 file and it didn't seem like the whole folder was single
14 file reports.
15 Q. And Annie Mora was there or not there?
16 A. I don't recall Annie Mora being there. I don't
17 know. I don't recall her being there.
18 Q. Did you see her that night?
19 A. Probably. Kind of an elusive answer. Probably,
20 but I don't know for sure. I mean, there wasn't anything
21 significant that happened with her that I remember.
22 Q. Okay. Do you if she ever looked at the PC folder?
23 A. I don't know. I didn't see her.
24 Q. Is she Clear? .
25 A. I actually don't know.
44
1 Q. Okay. Did Kartuzinski make it over there to the
2 OSA offices in the Coachman Building? Was he there with
3 you?
4 A. Not while I was there.
5 Q. He wasn't?
6 A. I mean, I was only there for probably 15, 20
7 minutes before I went running back over to the Coachman.
8 Q. Oh, I thought OSA was in the Coachman?
9 A. No. It's right across the street.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. The Coachman Building is a separate building that
12 we rent.
13 Q. What did you do with the PC file?
14 A. I left it there in OSA.
15 Q. And whose trust was that given to?
16 A. I mean, I guess it's a -- it's a very secure area.
17 Brian Anderson. I guess Brian Anderson.
18 Q. He was entrusted with it?
19 A. Well, it wasn't like I said, Here, I'm entrusting
20 you with this.
21 Q. You wouldn't just walk off and leave it?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Who was it given to?
24 A. Well, I mean, it was -- it wasn't handed to
25 anybody, it was right there. Brian was right there. And it
45
1 was, okay, I'm running over to the Coachman to, you know,
2 organize this up.
3 Q. Okay. What was your understanding they were going
4 to do with it?
5 A. I don't know. I didn't -- wasn't even a concern.
6 Q. Why did you go back across the street now? What
7 was your next thing?
8 A. To organize this isolation.
9 Q. And who did you call to do that or did you do it
10 yourself?
11 A. I got ahold of Janet and Marcus. Janet and Marcus
12 were -- are sort of more, you know, junior execs rather than
13 me.
14 Q. I thought you were over there with Marcus while he
15 was organizing this thing?
16 A. Yeah, I don't remember exactly. I think that
17 Marcus came over -- I don't know.
18 Q. Well, I'm confused. Completely confused.
19 So I'm going to give you a piece of paper. You
20 show me your office, Anderson's office, Quirino's office,
21 and let's see if we can reconstruct this thing from where
22 you went, where the PC folder went.
23 We'll get a pen for you. There's one.
24 A. Thank you.
25 Okay. So this is Cleveland Avenue. This
46
1 Fort Harrison Avenue. This is Fort Harrison.
2 Fort Harrison's probably here. And the -- this is what we
3 call the Clearwater Bank Building is here. And that's where
4 OSA is, up in here.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. This here is a big building, is the
7 Coachman Building. And this is -- mostly we have a lot of
8 the course rooms, this is mostly a training building. Up on
9 the 5th floor is where the exec offices are. And then it's
10 like a big, wide, huge hallway. And there's -- my office is
11 here and there's a conference room here. Janet and Marcus'
12 office is right here, right across the hallway.
13 So there was kind of isolation. Whole evolution
14 was kind of happening here. Marcus was interviewing people
15 here. You know, kind of running around in here basically.
16 Q. All right. So you when you said you went over
17 here with the PC folder -- -
18 A. No, I didn't take the PC folder.
19 Q. You ordered the PC folder when you were here?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. I was under the assumption Quirino was over here
22 gathering up the information to get the watch together.
23 A. No, he was over here.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. I get told Lisa McPherson is dead, whatever. Ah,
47
1 run over here. I want to know who knows what's happening.
2 I call for the PC folder, start to look into it. Then
3 Janice -- I know Brian got the word Janice was concerned she
4 had meningitis or died of meningitis.
5 So then pretty much immediately I -- I go running
6 back over here to start organizing this up here. 'Cause
7 I -- now I need to -- now I need to get staff to help me to,
8 find these people. It's late, some of them have gone home.
9 So it's quite an evolution to round up all these people. So
10 this all takes place over here.
11 Q. All right. So all that interview and stuff that
12 Quirino,was doing --
13 A. Was over here.
14 Q. -- was over here.
15 And he created the summary that I've got here --
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. -- from caretakers.
18 Is this the summary you said you looked at?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And when did you read that?
21 A. I guess the next day.
22 Q. And in what office was that in, his office over
23 there?
24 A. I don't know. I -- I mean, in terms of -- more to
25 the point on the answer to that question is, as it was
48
1 happening, we were getting this information from him.
2 Because part of the major purpose of his interviews was to
3 find out if they themselves had possibly been contaminated
4 and if they had talked to anybody else or been in contact
5 with anybody else who could possibly be contaminated or
6 whatever you call it, you know. And so mostly as he was
7 interviewing we were getting the information from him. So
8 that report -- that summary didn't have a tremendous amount
9 of significance to me after it was written up. But anyway,
10 I remember seeing the report, maybe I was in my office.
11 Q. Okay. Did you have any further meetings with
12 Brian Anderson about this that night?
13 A. Yes. I -- after I kind of had this -- after a
14 while and this seemed to be coming under control, my next
15 concern was, how does the family get notified or did she
16 have any family or, you know, this type of thing. And I --
17 somehow I was hooked back up -- I got -- talked to Brian
18 about that concern. And I later went back over, to the CB
19 and we called Benetta Slaughter to find out -- basically to
20 tell her and to find out from her, you know, whether Lisa
21 had any family, how the family could be contacted, that type
22 of thing.
23 Q. What time was this phone call made?
24 A. I don't know. I know it was late. I'm not sure
25 exactly. It was -- I know it was late in the night.
49
1 Q. Who talked to her on the telephone?
2 A. I did.
3 Q. What did you tell her?
4 A. I -- basically, I told her I had something that I
5 needed to go over with her and I wanted to know if she would
6 come -- come here to see me, 'cause I didn't want to really
7 tell her on the phone.
8 Q. Did she do that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did she do that?
11 A. She did. Her and her husband came.
12 Q. They both came to your building?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Was that in the early morning hours or was that
15 around midnight, do you remember?
16 A. It was -- I'm not sure. It was maybe around
17 midnight, maybe early -- I'm not sure.
18 Q. Okay. And what occurred?
19 A. I told her Lisa had died. She cried a lot. I
20 tried to, you know, comfort her some. They asked, you know,
21 a lot of questions, which I had no answers to. Like how,
22 what happened, you know. And then I -- I mostly asked her,
23 like, does she have any family, how would -- you know, how
24 would -- how should they be contacted or whatever.
25 And -- and Benetta told me that there were --
50
1 there was one -- she actually lived with another girl in
2 her -- in an apartment here. So we also -- David Slaughter,
3 I think, went out and-- and picked her up and brought her
4 also here to the CB. And I also told her. That was Gloria.
5 Q. Cruz?
6 A. Cruz, that's right.
7 So I told her. She was crying, you know.
8 Anyway, so -- and then Benetta told me about
9 Lisa's mother. And basically Lisa's mother was the only
10 real family that she had. I asked her if she knew Lisa's
11 mother herself and she -- she did, she knew her lightly.
12 And so she felt it would be best if she spoke to her and
13 told her.
14 Q. And did she do that?
15 A. She didn't want to call her at whatever time it
16 was, 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning, so she -- as far as I
17 know, first thing -- well, yeah, she did first thing in the
18 morning call her mother and tell her.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. So by that point it was -- when that was all
21 finished, it was probably, I don't know, 4:00 in the morning
22 or something like that.
23 Q. Where did the PC folder go the next day?
24 A. I have no idea.
25 Q. Did you order it to go anywhere?
51
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. Did anybody?
3 A. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.
4 Q. Well, it was entrusted, last time you saw it, with
5 either one of the Fontanas or Brian Anderson possibly?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. Did Brian Anderson read that file?
8 A. I don't know. I did not see him looking at it.
9 Q. Did you go to the funeral?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Who did?
12 A. Mary Voegeding did.
13 Q. Why did she go?
14 A. Because she basically went on behalf of me. I
15 know that Benetta went and some other people that worked in
16 her company, yeah.
17 Q. There was some concerns about this death making --
18 creating some negative publicity in the Church; is that
19 correct?
20 A. Well --
21 MR. POLLI: You have to say yes or no.
22 A. I don't know. I mean; to be honest, it wasn't
23 some major concern. I mean, some concern, I guess I'd have
24 to say yes.
25 Q. Okay. When did you become aware the Clearwater
52
1 Police Department was, becoming involved in an investigation
2 relating to the circumstances surrounding her death?
3 A. Seems like -- I don't know. Seems like some days
4 afterwards.
5 Q. Okay. Were there ever any meetings between you
6 and Mr. Anderson or anybody else in the upper echelon of the
7 Church in order to discuss whatever possible damage control
8 you might have from this scenario?
9 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
10 Q. No?
11 A. Unh-unh.
12 Q. Never happened?
13 A. Between myself and Brian Anderson, no.
14 Q. Or anybody in OSA or your department.
15 A. To discuss?
16 Q. Well, Lisa McPherson died on Church property.
17 A. Right.
18 Q. At a bare minimum, that's not a pleasant thing.
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. And knowing the relationship that you -- or not
21 you, that the Church has with The Trib and the
22 St. Petersburg Times, obviously you're aware that that can
23 create a problem?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. Because they can make it a problem, correct?
53
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And was that discussed? Was that discussion ever
3 had between you and Mr. Brian Anderson or anybody else in
4 reference to the circumstan6es surrounding Lisa McPherson's
5 death in the hotel?
6 A. No.
7 Q. It was not?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. I mean, we -- you know, similarly in terms of what
11 you're asking about, we've certainly discussed precautions
12 that would be taken to prevent, you know, anyone who's a
13 lunatic or whatever from staying there at the Fort Harrison.
14 We haven't -- I haven't had -- I haven't talked with
15 Brian Anderson particularly about it. I mean, internally
16 within our -- my own organization, I certainly would never
17 want that to -- anything like that to ever happen again.
18 There's --
19 Q. Well, it was perceived by you and the upper
20 echelon of the ,Church as a -- what's the word that would
21 best describe that? Embarrassment?
22 A. Right. Right.
23 Q. Fair enough?
24 A. Fair enough.
25 Q. All right. An embarrassment such to the extent
54
1 that Kartuzinski lost his position, correct?
2 A. Well, I mean, Kartuzinski didn't lose his position
3 as a result of that. Kartuzinski, No. 1, was temporary from
4 Day 1. And No. 2, we were happy that Richard was back.
5 guess I could say, you know, we were happy that he was back.
6 Alain was not considered stellar on the position.
7 Q. All right. Brian Anderson lost his position?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. And I believe he went through what's called a
10 Committee of Evidence also?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Correct?
13 A. I don't -- to be honest, Brian Anderson is not
14 my-- under my charge, but --
15 Q. Well, let's not beat around the bush.
16 A. I know Brian Anderson --
17 Q. You're at the top of the heap over there.
18 A. Right.
19 Q. It's not like you don't know what's going on.
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Let's not bury our,head in the sand here. You
22 know what's going on in the Church, if anybody does.
23 I've talked to a lot of people.
24 A. Right.
25 Q. Some of these people can say that, you can't say
55
1 that.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Would you agree with that statement?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. If anybody knows what's going on, you and Brian
6 do. Nothing's kept from you. Fair enough?
7 A. Yes. I'm -- I'm not going to say -- there are
8 certainly things that go on in OSA that he doesn't tell me
9 about. They're not obligated to inform me of everything
10 they do.
11 But Brian -- I don't know how to say it. You
12 know, Brian, I think, was put on what he sort of does best.
13 He -- he's a community -- you know PR kind of guy. He's
14 not -- he's not a sharpy that you would have run an
15 organization, basically, he's -- you know, anyway.
16 Q. Well, if he's a spokesman though, then you would
17 have to think he has to be at least entrusted with all of
18 the information --
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. -- otherwise he can't be a spokesman?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Because reporters ask a lot tougher questions than
23 I do.
24 A. Right.
25 Q. Agreed?
56
1 A. That's agreed.
2 Q. So he's entrusted with all the information?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. Whose decision was it to consult an attorney, an
5 outside attorney? Not what was said, just whose decision
6 was it to consult an attorney?
7 A. I assume it was -- it was OSA's decision. It's
8 something that we always -- we always do, I mean.
9 Q. Well, I'm not blaming you, I think it's a wise
10 move.
11 A. Right.
12 Q. And that was Bob Johnson?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Okay. Did you speak with him?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. When did the -- let's just call them --
17 what's a good word for the higher up people in L.A.? What
18 do you call them, the people that come immediately from L.A
19 to Clearwater to say we need to check this out? What were
20 they described as?
21 That occurred, correct?
22 A. I don't know what -- who you're talking about.
23 Q. People from L.A. showed up in Clearwater going,
24 hey, this Lisa McPherson thing ain't looking so good, right?
25 A. Like OSA people?
57
1 Q. I don't know.
2 A. I guess.
3 Q. People from L.A.
4 A. Oh.
5 Q. People from the big shot organization in L.A.
6 A. Okay. I think you're talking about OSA people.
7 Q. Yeah, I guess.
8 MR. McGARRY: Give me some names.
9 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Lynn Farney,
10 Elliott Abelson, Glen Steilo.
11 A. That's OSA Legal.
12 Q. And they would be deemed as having the ability to
13 tell everybody in Clearwater what to do? I mean, they're
14 Senior to the Clearwater people?
15 A. They're Senior to the Clearwater OSA people.
16 Q. But I understand you're in a different --
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. -- section or division.
19 When did they show up? They've been here more
20 than one time I'm sure.
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Because this thing, once it got restarted up after
23 the Medical Examiner's report came out, busted loose, they
24 were back here, correct?
25 A. Right.
58
1 Q. Okay. Well, when were they first here after
2 December 5th?
3 A. I'm not -- I don't know totally. I'm not totally
4 sure. It seems -- seems like some days afterwards. I'm
5 really guessing, I don't know.
6 Q. Did you meet with any of them?
7 A. No, I did not.
8 Q. Who did?
9 A. I'm assuming that they met with OSA, the -- like
10