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On This Day
| Date | Title |
|---|---|
| 1986 | Conditions Order |
| 1986 | TMO |
| 1995 | Ft. Harrison - Room Assignment Sheet, Tue 14 Nov 1995 |
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Random Document
Sworn Statement of Annie Mora
| Date: | August 21, 1997 |
| Pages: | 141 |
1
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
IN RE:
INVESTIGATION
ORIGINAL
STATEMENT OF: ANNIE MORA
DATE: August 21, 1997
TIME: Began: 10:35 a.m.
Ended: 2:00 p.m.
PLACE: Criminal Justice Center
Office of the State Attorney
Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida
REPORTED BY: Ruth N. Martin, CSR, CP, RNR
Registered Merit Reporter
Notary Public
State of Florida at Large
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320
2
APPEARANCES:
MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
Office of the State Attorney
Criminal Justice Complex, Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida 33760
Attorney for State of Florida
JOHN F. LAURO, ESQUIRE
John F. Lauro, P.A.
Barnett Bank Plaza, Suite 3950
101 East Kennedy Boulevard
Tampa, Florida 33602
Attorney for the Witness
ALSO PRESENT:
LEE STROPE, Special Agent
Florida Department of Law Enforcement
WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
City of Clearwater Police Department
INDEX
PAGE
EXAMINATION
BY MR. McGARRY 3
BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS 97
BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE 119
BY MR. McGARRY 135
BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS 138
CERTIFICATE OF OATH 141
3
1 The deponent herein,
2 ANNIE MORA,
3 being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
5 examined and testified as follows:
6 MR. LAURO: Let me put on the record that my
7 name is John Lauro, and I represent Miss Mora. She is
8 testifying today pursuant to a subpoena issued by the
9 State Attorney's Office for Pinellas County,
10 Pasco County. And as a result, she's testifying with
11 full protection of Florida law in connection with that
12 subpoena.
13 EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. McGARRY:
15 Q. Okay. Your name, please?
16 A. Annie Mora.
17 Q. And your date of birth?
18 A. X '61.
19 Q. All right. And where do you reside?
20 A. At the Hacienda X
21 Q. I know where it is.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. Do you have a roommate? Are you married?
24 A. I'm married.
25 Q. Okay. How long have you been a member of the
4
1 Church of Scientology?
2 A. Since 1982.
3 Q. Okay. And how long have you resided in
4 Clearwater, Florida?
5 A. Three and a half years.
6 Q. Okay. And where did you live before you lived
7 here?
8 A. Los Angeles.
9 Q. Okay. And obviously, you were a member of the
10 Scientology religion out there?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Okay. And how did you become a member of
13 Scientology?
14 A. My mother introduced me.
15 Q. Okay. Did you meet your husband through the
16 Church or were you married prior to you getting into the
17 Church yourself?
18 A. I met him in the Church.
19 Q. Okay. What caused you to move to Clearwater?
20 A. He -- he and I were living and working in
21 Los Angeles, and he came to Clearwater to do a specific job,
22 and he ended up getting posted in Clearwater, so then I
23 transferred.
24 Q. Okay. What's his position?
25 A. He's the Chaplain at the Flag Service
5
1 organization.
2 Q. Okay. And were you -- is there an OSA out in
3 L.A.?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. There is?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And were you with them out there?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. So you were able to find a post in Clearwater in
10 OSA?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. When you moved here -- which would have been what,
13 '94?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. What was your position then?
16 A. Before I moved here?
17 Q. No, when you moved here. When you moved here in
18 '94, what position did you get with Clearwater Flag?
19 A. I was in the research -- same area where I work
20 now.
21 Q. So you haven't changed anything since you moved
22 from L.A.?
23 A. Unh-unh.
24 Q. So how would you describe your job description?
25 A. I research, I collect information that I think
6
1 others need to know in order to give direction on how to
2 handle situations for --
3 Q. What kind of situations?
4 A. Situations that may present public relations or
5 legal situations for the Church.
6 Q. So you must be working pretty closing then with
7 Brian Anderson. It seems like he does a lot of that.
8 A. Yeah, uh-huh.
9 Q. Who else does what you do? Anybody else?
10 A. Nobody at the moment.
11 Who else did in December of '95, anybody else?
12 A. Nobody at that time.
13 Q. Okay. But within your office also worked -- I'm
14 sure they probably had various responsibilities, but
15 Humberto Fontana and Judy, right?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Lynn Farney, was he in that office?
18 A. No. He's from Los Angeles, always been there.
19 Q. Oh, he's from L.A.?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Do you know him?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Do you work with him?
24 A. No.
25 Q. I mean, was he here for the Lisa McPherson thing
1
1 for a period?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Okay. Ben Shaw is now in there, right?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. Ben Shaw took Brian Anderson's position?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Okay. Let me start by asking you, did you know
8 Lisa McPherson prior to any of this occurring back in
9 December of '95?
10 A. Never met her.
11 Q. Never met her?
12 A. Unh-unh.
13 Q. Did you know -- did you know Benetta Slaughter?
14 A. Never met her.
15 Q. No?
16 A. Unh-unh.
17 Q. Okay. When did you first hear her name,
18 Lisa Mcpherson's name?
19 A. The day that she went to the hospital,
20 Morton Plant, after the car accident.
21 Q. All right. Who told you that that occurred?
22 A. I don't remember exactly. It may have been Brian.
23 Q. Brian Anderson?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. And do you remember what was told to you?
8
1 A. That a parishioner of ours was at Morton Plant
2 Hospital. I don't remember anything more than that.
3 Q. All right. What action did you take when you
4 heard that information?
5 A. Well, I went to the hospital.
6 Q. You were one of the people that went to the
7 hospital?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Why was that?
10 A. That was with the purpose of finding out what was
11 going on, to see if there was a situation there that the
12 Church should be concerned about, get what information about
13 that that I could, so that handling could be done that would
14 help her and protect us as well.
15 Q. Okay. So you -- you were given enough information
16 to realize that this was a Type III situation, possibly?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. Agreed?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. And that potentially a psychiatrist might get
21 involved here, which is against you guys, being the Church's
22 philosophy, so that is why members from the organization
23 might have shown up there. Would you describe that as your
24 position?
25 A. That was a concern, yeah.
9
1 Q. Okay. Who took you to the hospital?
2 A. I think I drove it in my car.
3 Q. By yourself?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. Who else from the Office of Special Affairs also
6 went, if you can remember?
7 A. Humberto went.
8 Q. Humberto?
9 A. Uh-huh. He was the only other person from my
10 office that went.
11 Q. All right. And when you arrived there, you
12 discovered there were other members from the Church that
13 were there also, correct?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. And who were they?
16 A. Well, there was a parishioner there, not a Staff
17 member. Do you want --
18 Q. Who was that?
19 A. That was David Slaughter, Benetta Slaughter's
20 husband.
21 Q. Okay. And why was he there?
22 A. From what he relayed to me, he had gotten a call
23 from Lisa at home, from the hospital, and so he went.
24 Another gal went who was a resident in their
25 household at the time. Her name is Mary Damass.
10
1 Q. Mary Damass?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. She came with --
4 A. So she was there.
5 Q. -- David Slaughter?
6 A. I don't know. Perhaps, but I don't know for sure.
7 Q. All right. You gained that information from
8 Mr. Slaughter himself?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Was that at the time or recently?
11 A. At the time at the hospital.
12 Q. All right. Who else from the Church was there?
13 A. Another parishioner named Jeanne Decuypere.
14 Q. And she's a chiropractor?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. And how did she come to be there?
17 A. I'm not sure. I don't know.
18 Q. You don't know how she arrived or what her purpose
19 was?
20 A. From what I understood later, she had treated Lisa
21 priorly as a professional.
22 Q. Okay. Anybody else?
23 A. After I arrived there was -- either after I
24 arrived or when I arrived, I believe Emma Schamehorn was
25 there, and then after I arrived Judy Goldsberry-Weber came,
11
1 Alain Kartuzinski came, and I think that's it.
2 Q. That's quite a lot of people for a situation like
3 this.
4 A. That's true.
5 Q. Has this ever happened before?
6 A. Not in my experience, no.
7 Q. Why did she attract so much attention?
8 A. Well, it's not -- it's not very usual that this
9 kind of thing happens to somebody. And when it happens to a
10 Scientologist who, you know, has been a parishioner for a
11 long time, and should by this time be in such a -- a good
12 frame of mind, you know, it's like why does this happen.
13 It's a tragic thing to go crazy.
14 Q. Okay. Let's -- let's touch upon your study level
15 so I'll know. Obviously, you've been with the Church for
16 some time, but your level of study is how far on that side
17 of the board, not the training side?
18 A. Are you familiar with the --
19 Q. Pretty familiar.
20 A. -- different levels?
21 Okay. So I am -- I have the basic administrative
22 training that any Staff member does. It's called
23 Staff Status II.
24 Q. Let's go to the other side of the board. Let's go
25 to the spiritual side.
12
1 A. The technical side?
2 Q. The technical side.
3 A. So there I've done the Hubbard Qualified
4 Scientology Course; and there's a little bit of auditing
5 involved in that course as well.
6 Q. Are you clear?
7 A. Unh-unh.
8 Q. You have not reached Clear?
9 A. No.
10 Q. That was my main question.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Back to the hospital: So what role did -- did you
13 play at the hospital? Did you speak to anybody that was
14 from Morton Plant?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Who did?
17 A. Humberto did.
18 Q. And were you present to hear him speak to
19 somebody?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. Do you know who he spoke to?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you know what the basic context of his purpose
24 was? I mean, what was he talking to the doctors about?
25 A. His -- his purpose at the time was to do what he
13
1 could to inform the authorities in the hospital that she is
2 a Scientologist and that she, based on her religious
3 beliefs, wouldn't want to end up in -- in the hands of
4 psychiatry. She doesn't want to get drugs, she doesn't want
5 to get put away. And so he was making that known --
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. -- to them as best he could. I don't know how --
8 how well he did himself. But he wanted that known and ...
9 Q. You say that you don't know how well he did
10 because of what?
11 A. I don't know who he talked to, I don't know what
12 reaction he got, but that was his purpose.
13 Q. All right. And let's go to Judy Goldsberry-Weber,
14 what was her purpose?
15 A. Judy had -- she came because she knows people in
16 the hospital from having come there before with parishioners
17 and Staff for emergency care, you know, accidents.
18 Q. What position did she have with the Church?
19 A. She was the Medical Liaison -- she was one of the
20 Medical Liaison Office staff.
21 Q. Office staff, okay.
22 A. I think she was the --
23 Q. Did anybody else in the MLO Office show up there?
24 Was it just her?
25 A. I think Emma was there too.
14
1 Q. Emma, that's right.
2 A. She was there.
3 Q. Out of the people that you've named that were
4 there -- did you leave anybody out that you can recall?
5 know this has been a while.
6 A. Unh-unh.
7 Q. Okay. That pretty much covers it.
8 Out of those people, who actually spoke personally
9 with Lisa McPherson?
10 A. I know in the -- in the back, in the emergency
11 room area, there was Debbie -- Mary Damass and
12 Jeanne Decuypere, and then later on Alain Kartuzinski was
13 able to see her.
14 Q. All right. How about Judy Goldsberry-Weber, was
15 she back there too?
16 A. She did go back. I don't know if she actually saw
17 Lisa.
18 Q. And you didn't?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So you don't know what was said out there, or did
21 you gain that information later?
22 A. Yeah, anything I -- I got about what happened came
23 later.
24 Q. Occurred later?
25 A. Yeah, uh-huh.
15
1 Q. Okay. After they were in there, those people you
2 just mentioned were in there talking to Lisa, they came out,
3 did y'all have an assembly together and decide what would
4 best be the course of action, plan of action for Lisa?
5 A. No. Before she came out I recall, you know, being
6 concerned about this, where she was going to go, how is she
7 going to be cared for, did she even need somebody to help
8 her, was she able to get around. These are the kinds of
9 things I was trying to decipher. And there was some talk
10 about where she might be able to stay, you know. It was
11 adjudicated she probably shouldn't stay by herself, because
12 she was obviously unstable.
13 Q. What do you mean, "adjudicated"?
14 A. Decided. Figured out.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. And while there I remember Alain was on the
17 telephone, I don't know who with particularly, but, you
18 know, he was -- he as well was working on that, you know,
19 where -- where was she going to go, how was she going to be
20 cared for.
21 And before she came out it was decided, not by
22 myself or not by Alain, but whoever he was talking with on
23 the phone, it was coordinated with whoever was at, the Church
24 at the time, not at the hospital, that she should just go to
25 the Fort Harrison.
16
1 Q. All right. Whose decision was that?
2 A. I don't --
3 Q. Who makes the final call on that out of that group
4 of people?
5 A. I don't know who that was.
6 Q. Who's the highest ranking individual out of those
7 people you mentioned?
8 A. Perhaps the Security Chief.
9 Q. Was he there to?
10 A. Not at the hospital.
11 Q. Oh.
12 A. Oh, out of us in the hospital?
13 Q. Yeah. Out of the people in the hospital, it might
14 have been you?
15 A. Yeah, well, it might have been if it were -- if it
16 were -- if it were up to me, but it wasn't.
17 Q. Okay. That decision was made -- obviously, that
18 decision, the care of her spiritually, wouldn't have fallen
19 under your purview of authority anyway?
20 A. No.
21 Q. That would have been Mr. Kartuzinski, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And why was that?
24 A. Because he's in a technical position where he
25 would, you know, know what to do with a person to help a
17
1 person in that condition.
2 Q. Okay. Had he -- had he had experience with
3 Lisa McPherson prior to this incident?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Who knows the answer to that?
6 A. He would know.
7 Q. Okay. Do you know who her Auditor was at the time
8 prior to her being pre-Clear?
9 A. No.
10 Q. His title is Senior Case Supervisor, correct?
11 A. At that time, yeah.
12 Q. Okay. So she fell -- her situation fell under his
13 responsibility?
14 A. Yeah. It didn't have to be that way, there are
15 other Case Supervisors, but he --
16 Q. He happened to draw the lot on that one?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Okay. So are you aware then -- how long did this
19 last down there at the hospital? How long were you guys
20 there, do you remember?
21 A. I don't know. Maybe an hour.
22 MR. McGARRY: Fill me in, Detectives, what
23 time was the accident?
24 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: About six
25 o'clock at night.
18
1 Q. Six o'clock at night. So what time do you think
2 she checked out, best of your recollection? Was it the wee
3 hours sometime, morning hours?
4 A. Oh, no, it was still in the evening I'm sure.
5 Q. Evening hours?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. And how did that process go? How did Lisa get out
8 of the hospital? Who did she leave with?
9 A. She walked out of the hospital with
10 Jeanne Decuypere and Emma and Alain.
11 Q. All right. And whose car did she get into?
12 A. Alain's.
13 Q. All right. And who got in the car with her, just
14 the two of them or more than the two of them?
15 A. Emma and Jeanne.
16 Q. At the time they got in that automobile, was it
17 known to you what the course of action was going to be?
18 A. That she was going to the Fort Harrison, yes.
19 Q. For rest and relaxation, that was the decision
20 that was made?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. And you knew that?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. And that decision was made by Mr. Kartuzinski in
25 consultation with whoever else he had on the telephone from
19
1 the other end of the Church?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Okay. Do you know if she went straight to the
4 Fort Harrison at that time?
5 A. I assume so. I didn't follow them, but I don't
6 know what else they would --
7 Q. The reason why I'm asking, there's always been a
8 missing gap here, how she got all of her things. She ended
9 up with a bunch of clothes and personal effects at the
10 Fort Harrison. I never did figure that out. Do you know
11 how she got all that stuff?
12 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
13 Q. Have no idea?
14 A. I can guess, but I don't --
15 Q. Take a guess. I won't hold you to it.
16 A. Probably one of her friends brought it.
17 Q. Brought it to the Church?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. You don't know if they went to her house first or
20 went straight to the Fort Harrison?
21 A. I don't think they would have gone to her house
22 first.
23 Q. Okay. Now, what did you do?
24 A. At that point?
25 Q. Yes.
20
1 A. Well, I would have left and gone back to my
2 office, started gathering whatever information was available
3 on her. You know, there are various kinds of information we
4 have there. Like there is a central file, file, which is a
5 file of correspondence between her and the Church.
6 Q. You started pulling all the files?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Would you characterize yourself as somewhat of a
9 Custodian of Records there or are you just -- you gather
10 information when a situation like this comes up?
11 MR. LAURO: That's kind of a legal term, but
12 aside from the legal issue, how would you describe your
13 function in terms of records?
14 A. The latter that you mentioned, when something
15 happens.
16 Q. You gather the information so that action can be
17 taken on it and the right people get the information
18 A. Right.
19 Q. -- to act upon it?
20 A. Exactly.
21 Q. So this gathering of folders, I assume, various
22 folders --
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. -- was for ultimately who to look at, you or
25 somebody else?
21
1 A. Well, I would compile the information and give it
2 to my Seniors, Brian at the time, you know. That would be
3 something of use to the Legal Department as well.
4 Q. Okay. So you compiled this information, and that
5 included a central file folder?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Account folders? No?
8 A. I wouldn't have cared about that at the time.
9 Q. Ethics folders?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Okay. Personal folder?
12 A. She wouldn't had -- she didn't have one. She
13 wasn't --
14 Q. Okay. PC folders?
15 A. I would have gotten information from the PC folder
16 that would be of use to us, but I'm not -- that's not a
17 folder I myself would go through.
18 Q. Why?
19 A. 'Cause I'm not of that same level in Scientology
20 that she was.
21 Q. Okay. So you're not Clear, so you can't go
22 through them?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. You can physically handle the folder. How would
25 you go through it to pick something out if you can't look at
22
1 it?
2 A. I wouldn't. I would have somebody else do that
3 for me.
4 Q. Okay. And who was that somebody else?
5 A. Alain, I think. I don't know who else I would
6 have had do that...
7 Q. Well, let's see here and think about that for a
8 second.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. 'Cause that's a burning question I have.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. I want to know who was the person that went
13 through the PC folder or gathered -- you gathered the PC
14 folders, you actually got them?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You didn't --
17 A. Didn't have any reason to have them in my office.
18 Q. All right. But you gathered folders?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. All the folders but the PC folders?
21 A. Right. Which is two folders.
22 Q. There's just two PC folders that she had?
23 A. No, the central file folder and the ethics folder
24 are the two that I got.
25 Q. You gathered those?
23
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. And you can look at those, right?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Let's keep with those two folders then. Who did
5 you give those folders to?
6 A. Well, eventually they were sent to Los Angeles.
7 Up to that point they didn't go anywhere.
8 Q. You didn't let Brian Anderson look at them?
9' A. I didn't hand them to him.
10 Q. All right. Did he call for them?
11 A. I don't -- I don't think so.
12 Q. So you just had them on your desk?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Who looked at them -- is that where they stopped?
15 A. Huh?
16 Q. Your desk was the last stop for those two folders?
17 A. There may have been people come to look at them or
18 take them from my desk to --
19 Q. Do you know who any of those people would have
20 been?
21 A. People in our office.
22 Q. Okay. Is there a procedure where they would come
23 see you and take them or they would take them without your
24 knowledge or would they check them out or is there some
25 situation that keeps track of these things so they don't end
24
1 up being misplaced or end up on somebody's desk where they
2 don't know where they are?
3 A. Normally when we go into somebody else's area when
4 they're not there, and we need something, we'll take it,
5 borrow it, leave a note saying, I have blah, blah folder
6' with me. They rarely go outside of the office.
7 Q. You gathered the ethics and the central file
8 folder. Now, what did you do with those folders?
9 A. I used a lot of information to make this report.
10 Q. To make this document here?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. And you did this at whose suggestion, or was it
13 initiated by yourself?
14 A. By myself.
15 Q. Totally?
16 A. This is my job.
17 Q. All right. You initiated this whole procedure?
18 Nobody said, Annie, give us a summary of the ethics and the
19 central file folder, please?
20 A. I don't think so. It's just that's something that
21 I would normally do.
22 Q. All right. But most of the people that have
23 testified in reference to the Lisa McPherson situation have
24 indicated it's not a normal situation. Would you agree with
25 that?
25
1 A. Definitely.
2 Q. Okay. So my question is, is this a normal
3 situation?
4 A. The writing of a report?
5 Q. What's this called, a Knowledge Report?
6 A. This is a report.
7 Q. Just a report?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. But you would characterize this as a summary of
10 the ethics file and central file folders that you read,
11 correct?
12 A. It's a report that has information from those
13 files in there.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. It has other data too.
16 Q. From what other sources?
17 A. From -- from David Slaughter, you know, how this
18 came to be.
19 Well, this -- this report here was done when she
20 died. But I remember a lot of this information that's in
21 this report came from the earlier data collection done when
22 she first went to the hospital.
23 Q. We're going to have to back up and ask about that.
24 When she first went --
25 A. I mean, when she came out of the hospital, then I
26
1 got--
2 Q. I gotcha. The data -- that's where I thought we
3 were.
4 I know this was created, right, this was created
5 after she died?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. And I'm still talking about your pulling the file
8 folders when she went to the Cabana, that day. We're still
9 on that.
10 MR. LAURO: I think what she means, some of
11 the information contained in that report had been
12 assembled in some form prior to the --
13 Q. Prior, three weeks before or so?
14 A. Yeah.
15 MR. LAURO: Just so the record is clear,
16 we're talking about a report that's dated December 5, I
17 believe, 1995, that I've handed to Mr. McGarry, which
18 based on my discussions with Miss Mora I've concluded
19 is not privileged in any way. And I believe that the
20 Church concurs in that view; And without waiving any
21 of their privileges, they've authorized me to turn that
22 over to you this morning.
23 MR. McGARRY: Okay. Any questions as to this
24 specific document I'm sure are going to have to be
25 handled by Wayne Andrews, who is now furiously reading
27
1 over it. I haven't had that opportunity. But I'm sure
2 he will ask specific questions about the content of
3 this document.
4 BY MR. McGARRY:
5 Q. But going back to, so we know where we are in the
6 frame of time, when Lisa first gets placed in the Cabana,
7 that's when you're first gathering your information --
8 A. Right.
9 Q. -- and gathering folders and files?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. So your testimony here today is that you got the
12 ethics folder and the central file folder, and the purpose
13 of those two folders, you gathering those, is for whose
14 benefit, yours or somebody else's? Mr. Kartuzinski's?
15 A. Well, anyone who would -- who would need to have
16 the information to help them -- to help them, you know, in
17 various ways. Like, one, how could -- how could she have
18 gotten to this condition, you know. Well, there -- there's
19 something there to handle, obviously because --
20 Q. Right. You've got work to be done, no question
21 about it.
22 A. Yeah. So you find out what -- what the errors
23 were or what -- what went wrong with this girl that she got
24 to that point.
25 Q. Yes.
28
1 A. So you gather the information with that purpose in
2 mind.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. As well as to, you know, get a picture of what we
5 have here and, you know, what to do to handle it.
6 Q. All right. And is the area of the PC folders --
7 those folders contain auditing, correct?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. At a level of which you're not capable of reading,
10 correct?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Were those files gathered or pulled by any
13 individual in your office?
14 A. No, not in my office.
15 Q. By anybody in any office?
16 A. Well, I'm sure in the -- the technical area that
17 was pulled, yeah.
18 Q. Okay. And ultimately, that file would fall in the
19 hands of, let me take a stab, Alain Kartuzinski?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Okay. And so he had the benefit of those.
22 Are you specifically aware of that or is that
23 something you would say, well, that would be the normal
24 course of business to take care of Lisa?
25 A. That would be the normal course.
29
1 I'm -- since you asked, I've been trying to
2 remember, you know, did -- did he actually that night get
3 the folder and did he go through it and did he give me
4 information that night from the folder. I mean, I -- I
5 think he did, but it's like a long time ago, I don't --
6 Q. I understand. I won't hold you to it. I know
7 it's been a couple of years.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. What else did you do that night when you got to
10 the Church hotel? You're back to your office, I guess?
11 A. Actually, I didn't go back to my office first.
12 First I -- I went to the hotel and went to the room where
13 she was, where Lisa was taken. She had gotten there
14 already. And Emma was there. And Lisa was pretty calm. I
15 just saw her briefly. Emma was with her. And I left. Then
16 I went to my office.
17 Q. All right. And that's when you gathered the two
18 other folders?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Okay. Did you have a conversation with anybody in
21 your office about what the course of procedure was going to
22 be with Lisa McPherson at that point?
23 A. I don't remember a specific -- a specific
24 conversation, but it's the thing that we would do, yeah.
25 Q. All right. And what was your -- what was your
30
1 next involvement with Lisa?
2 A. Well, our concern at that time was to -- you know,
3 that she would sleep and she would rest and she would eat
4 and she would calm -- calm down and, you know, come back to
5 herself.
6 Q. Okay. That sounds like a good plan.
7 Who was in charge of implementing that?
8 A. I don't remember exactly. I mean it's covered --
9 as you know now, it's covered in -- in LRH written material
10 on what to do with someone who's in that state.
11 Q. Right.
12 Maybe you missed my question. She's there to --
13 it's been testified before, it's no mystery to me, that she
14 was there to be calmed down in order to get more auditing
15 for what may be called an Introspection Rundown or further
16 auditing to bring her back to normal. Were you aware of
17 that?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Okay. Who's in charge of that? Who's in charge
20 of her being in the hospital -- being in the Cabana? Who's
21 overseeing this thing?
22 A. Well, there's two -- there's two points of view or
23 two concern terminals. One is Alain Kartuzinski, because he
24 was at that time the Case Supervisor --
25 Q. Correct.
31
1 A. -- for her. And Security on the other hand,
2 because here we have a person who is a security concern.
3 You know, we don't know If she's going to hurt herself,
4 break a window, alarm neighbors --
5 Q. I understand.
6 A. -- attract police. You know, this is a security
7 concern. It's -- it was very unusual to have someone in her
8 condition there.
9 Q. All right. For the implementation of the watch,
10 Mr. Kartuzinski is in charge of that. And anything further
11 that would happen after the watch was completed and she was
12 calmed enough to receive training or auditing would have
13 been Mr. Kartuzinski's concern?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Correct?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. All right. Were you aware then that -- how were
18 you involved in the implementation of the watch, if you were
19 at all, of the people that took care of her around the clock
20 and/or the Security? I guess they helped in reference to
21 that as well. Were you involved in any of that?
22 A. No. The -- the closest I got to that was checking
23 with Security and checking with Alain on occasion, like
24 every couple days or so, to see how she was doing, was she
25 getting better.
32
1 Q. Okay. You checked with Kartuzinski?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. On a pretty regular basis?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Okay. And your reason for doing that is what?
6 A. Because from -- from our position in the
7 Office of Special Affairs, we're concerned that, you know,
8 the Church -- you know, we don't want the Church being in a
9 position of where we might get in trouble for something.
10 Q. Right.
11 A. We don't want bad press, we don't want trouble.
12 Q. Obviously, things went bad?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. So how did Mr. Kartuzinski keep track of
15 this whole thing?
16 A. Well, the -- the gals who were taking care of her
17 in the day would write reports at the end of their shifts,
18 you may call, and those reports would normally go into the
19 person's PC folder.
20 Q. All right. And who told those gals to do that?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. All right. Was it done, as far as you know?
23 A. I think so, yeah.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. I don't know why it wouldn't be done.
33
1 Q. Not a trick question, I've got a bunch of reports.
2 But as far as you know, Mr. Kartuzinski got those
3 reports as well?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Is that fair?
6 A. Yeah, uh-huh.
7 Q. And consequently, he would tell you how she was
8 doing based on what he read from caretakers' reports?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Okay. Can you -- do you know, you might not know
11 the answer to this, but do you know how actually physically
12 those reports would work their way up to Kartuzinski's
13 office?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Okay. You don't know if it was a runner or
16 Security or hand delivered or none of that?
17 A. No, I don't.
18 Q. That was handled by Security or whatever other
19 areas dealt with that aspect?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Okay. Well, tell me what Mr. Kartuzinski was
22 telling you in reference to Lisa McPherson's progress.
23 A. Our -- my conversations with him were always
24 brief. I mean, I didn't need to know and wasn't even
25 curious about the details of her psychotic behavior. I
34
1 mean, if it was psychotic, it was psychotic. And I -- you
2 know, I just -- I wanted to know if she was getting better,
3 if she was calming down, if she was eating, sleeping, you
4 know, is she getting to a point yet where she can have a
5 conversation with somebody.
6 Q. And what would you do with the information?
7 A. Nothing.
8 Q. Okay. Would you pass the information on to
9 anybody else in your office?
10 A. Probably. I don't remember exactly.
11 Q. All right. Brian Anderson's in charge of the
12 whole place at that time, correct?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. And --
15 MR. LAURO: The OSA?
16 MR. McGARRY: The whole schmeer, right?
17 MR. LAURO: The whole Flag operation?
18 MR. McGARRY: Flag.
19 A. No, he's not in charge of that.
20 Q. Was?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Who was?
23 A. There's a whole structure above him.
24 Q. Who's that?
25 A. Well, there's -- you have -- I wish I had --
35
1 Q. We've got paper, we've got pens. We've done this
2 before. Why don't you give her a piece of paper, here's a
3 pen.
4 A. You have the Flag Service Organization, which is
5 there to service parishioners and get them up the gradation
6 chart or the bridge. Then you have Flag Crew, which is the
7 organization that cares for the hotels and the restaurants
8 and transportation of Staff and parishioners about the area.
9 Then you have -- this is the Flag Land Base
10 offices, which our office is one of these.
11 Q. All right. OSA.
12 A. You have also, you know, Senior Personnel Office
13 that oversees personnel matters in both these organizations.
14 Senior Qualifications Area that oversees technical matters
15 in the FSO. You have World Institute of Scientology
16 Enterprises, the WISE Office it's called, and they -- they
17 have a membership for parishioners who are in business. And
18 we're not too close to them, but they're -- they're a
19 service for parishioners.
20 Q. Where was Mr. Kartuzinski's office at the time?
21 A. Here.
22 Q. Down there?
23 A. It's in -- it's in the same row of various other
24 offices. He's not like senior to any of these.
25 Q. Right.
36
1 A. You know, he can -- he can issue orders into these
2 organizations here, because he is senior to them.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. And then there's -- to the side, but they don't
5 really run us, they're just a higher up organization, is the
6 Commodore's Messenger Org, Organization.
7 Q. Who runs that?
8 A. At the time it's a gal named Angie -- no. Yeah,
9 Angie Quirino.
10 Q. Marcus Quirino's wife?
11 A. Yeah. She wasn't there at the time --
12 Q. Where is Marcus Quirino here?
13 A. Here's here. He's here in the FSO.
14 Q. All right.
15 A. And then there's also -- Security is in this same
16 level, same level as us.
17 And then you have a higher up organization, which
18 they -- they're not based in Clearwater particularly, but
19 they have representatives from Los Angeles in Clearwater.
20 Q. And that is?
21 A. This is the Religious Technology Center.
22 Q. RTC, we talked about that earlier today. Who's in
23 charge of that?
24 A. Right now it's a gal named Sue Gentry. So she --
25 she runs that.
37
1 Now, this -- this organization doesn't have a
2 purpose of running things, they're not a management body,
3 but they're here to ensure that --
4 Q. Hubbard tech is followed?
5 A. Yeah, exactly.
6 And Commodore's Message Organization also doesn't
7 have a job of management, but they have programs from the
8' main office in Los Angeles that they execute in the
9 organization.
10 Q. All right. Where is Ben Shaw in that now?
11 A. He's at the top of the Office of Special Affairs.
12 Q. He wasn't at the time?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Who was at the time?
15 A. Brian Anderson.
16 Q. All right. That's kind of my question.
17 So he -- Brian Anderson's at the top of the
18 management of the Flag organization here at the time' in '95?
19 A. He-- he was heading the
20 Office of Special Affairs.
21 Q. Right. But there wasn't anybody -- not counting
22 these people, there wasn't anybody here that could tell
23 Brian Anderson what to do, correct?
24 A. Well, there is a Senior -- she's not like above
25 him particularly, but she -- I'm not sure how --
38
1 Q. Cook?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Who's that?
4 Where is she?
5 A. Cook is down here.
6 Q. All right.
7 A. Actually, this person doesn't -- doesn't really,
8 run him. I mean, they're -- they're equal. They don't tell
9 each other what to do.
10 Q. Who is that person?
11 A. This is -- this is Monica Quirino. But she was
12 like nowhere on this cycle.
13 Q. Okay. All right. That's helpful. Thank you.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. And the Fontanas, where are the Fontanas? Where
16 are they in this thing?
17 A. They're here.
18 Q. They're in OSA also, right?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. All right. So how was Brian Anderson receiving
21 his information on this cycle?
22 A. I don't remember. He may have gotten some from
23 me, he may have kept himself informed by others.
24 Q. Would he have kept himself informed or would he
25 have been isolated from this thing so as not to know too
39
1 much in reference to his media releases on whatever
2 happened?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Okay. So you're --
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. It's a touchy question, I know, but ...
7 A. I mean, I didn't, like, observe how he was doing
8 his job at the time. I'm a junior person to him.
9 Q. Well, the reason why I ask that, because whenever
10 a question is asked to the Church in reference to
11 Lisa McPherson, he's the spokesperson, or he was at the time
12 at least, he was until a little time ago.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. He was the guy that was providing the answers, was
15 to be the spokesperson, that was his job.
16 A. From his position. That would have been his
17 position, yeah.
18 Q. Any time there's cameras running, he's the guy?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. And he's saddled with the information, and
21 whatever information is given to him is disseminated through
22 the media?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. He was the Church spokesman at the time?
25 A. Yeah.
40
1 Q. I don't think he is anymore. He's got a new
2 position now, correct?
3 A. He still is the Church spokesman.
4 Q. Is he?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. But his position somewhat changed here since this
7 Lisa McPherson thing, correct?
8 A. Since that time, yeah.
9 Q. All right. Did you go down and see Lisa yourself
10 in the Cabana?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. After the first day?
13 A. I did one time.
14 Q. You did?
15 A. After she was there about a week.
16 Q. All right. And explain that to me. How did that
17 go? What caused you to do that?
18 A. I was -- I was in the area. I checked in with
19 Security, the Security Chief was there and -- you know, to
20 see how -- how Lisa was doing today, is she getting any
21 better, is she sleeping at all. And he was at the time
22 arranging for a change of -- of personnel to take care of
23 her. So he was kind of in a hurry to get that done and I
24 just walked with him back to the room. And he asked if I
25 could stay in the room for a moment while he had one of the
41
1 gals in there come out to turn the -- the shift over to this
2 new gal.
3 Q. Right.
4 A. He says, can you just stay in the room for a
5 minute? There was -- Valerie Demange stayed in there with
6 me.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. And I was just in there maybe five minutes or
9 less.
10 And at the time she was -- when I first walked in
11 she was at the -- there's an adjoining door in the -- in the
12 room. It was locked, but there was a door there just the
13 same. And so she was licking the doorknob there. And once
14 in a while she would take a break and talk to an imaginary
15 person on the other side of door. So she did that for a
16 while. And then she -- she was talking all the time. I
17 couldn't even tell you what she said, just complete
18 nonsense. She walked around the room, very agitated.
19 She came close to me. She called me by another
20 name of a gal that I kind of look like. And she sat down on
21 the bed near me and she cried and she sang and she crossed
22 her legs. And with her leg that was extended she was
23 kicking, and she was close enough to the window where she
24 was kicking the -- the big window near the door, the exit
25 door. And that's about it.
42
1 Q. Okay. Did you write this up? Did you write a
2 report about that?
3 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
4 Q. No? Somebody else probably would have had to
5 anyway, one of the girls on watch?
6 A. I don't know. I don't -- it wasn't significant
7 enough, it doesn't seem to me.
8 Q. Right.
9 What -- what period were we in on this? Do you
10 remember how far along we were?
11 A. I think she was there about a week.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Or under a week, I don't know.
14 Q. Was there somebody from the MLO Office that was in
15 charge or saddled with extra, responsibilities in reference
16 to Lisa McPherson that you're aware of?
17 A. I don't know. I mean, at the time -- at the time
18 it was happening, I don't remember that specifically.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. Well, I know Judy Goldsberry-Weber's in that
21 office. I know that Janice Johnson is. Laura Arrunada, I
22 know that. Who else? Emma Schamehorn. Who am I missing?
23 Suzanne Green Schnurremberger at the time. They were all in
24 that office.
25 Q. Do you know if any of those people were seeing
43
1 Lisa?
2 A. I know Suzanne was with her for a while,
3 Suzanne Green. Laura. Emma was at the hospital and on the
4 evening when she came to the Fort Harrison. At the
5 hospital, Morton Plant, and then that evening at the
6 Fort Harrison. But I don't know how -- how long she stayed
7 with her, if she stayed the night there or what. Judy, I
8 don't know.
9 Q. Well, let me ask you this: When you were at the
10 Morton Plant Hospital, were you around when somebody had to
11 actually sign Lisa out? Were you aware that
12 Judy Goldsberry-Weber is the person that signed her name
13 with --
14 MR. McGARRY: What's his name, Logan?
15 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Lovett.
16 Q. -- Dr. Lovett?
17 A. Yeah. After that was done I heard about that.
18 Q. Okay. How did you hear about that?
19 A. From Judy.
20 Q. Okay. You had a conversation with Judy after
21 that?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. How long after?
24 A. Just briefly. I mean, she -- Lisa McPherson,
25 Jeanne Decuypere, Emma and Alain were walking out of the
44
1 hospital, and Judy Goldsberry-Weber came out from the back
2 and she said, I signed -- I signed for her.
3 Q. Signed her out?
4 A. I said okay.
5 Q. She basically put herself on the hook -- I
6, interviewed her so I know this. I'm telling you stuff that
7 came from her -- she put herself on the hook with
8 Dr. Lovett, saying she would be responsible for her care.
9 Were you aware of that?
10 A. After, yeah.
11 Q. Don't get me wrong, Lisa signed the thing too.
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. But Judy didn't get to participate in any of the
14 care of Lisa McPherson for some reason. Are you aware of
15 that?
16 A. I don't know. Not aware of that. I don't know
17 why that would be, particularly.
18 Q. All right. Who calls the shots on that?
19 A. I don't know how -- I don't know who or how the
20 people caring for her were picked, particularly.
21 Q. All right. Who would know that?
22 A. Security Chief maybe. I mean, he -- he wasn't
23 really -- I don't know.
24 Q. Would Kartuzinski know some of that?
25 A. As far as why -- what the qualifications would be
45
1 for a person?
2 Q. Yeah, who would be selected over who to be in
3 charge of, from the Medical Liaison Office, in charge of the
4 health and well-being of Lisa McPherson.
5 A. I don't know. I don't know that there was
6 someone. I don't have any knowledge of someone from that
7 office being in charge of her medically or overseeing that
8 specific aspect.
'9 Q. I don't want to use the word "medical." I mean,
10 that makes it sounds like -- well, I know all those people
11 at one time or another had contact with Lisa, and my
12 understanding is Janice Johnson was the point person from
13 the MLO Office that was in charge of feeding her and giving
14 her medicine or giving her -- she got a couple
15 prescriptions. So you don't have any knowledge of that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. All right. After that first visit you had
18 down the Cabana, what did you do next in reference to
19 Lisa McPherson's stay at the Church's hotel?
20 A. That day I -- I saw her after she was there for a
21 week?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. You don't remember doing anything specifically?
25 mean, did you do any other tasks that were asked of you in
46
1 reference to her stay there?
2 A. I don't think so.
3 Q. Next thing you did probably was this summary here
4 after she'd passed away, died?
5 A. Oh, like you're asking my next contact with the
6 cycle?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. There was one day after I saw her where I remember
9 I asked the Security Chief how she was doing, and he -- he
10 said she's -- she's actually calming down, sleeping and so
11 forth. And I said, Really? I was like happy, you know,
12 finally. I don't know how much longer she could last, you
13 know, being that active without any sleep. So I was -- I
14 was very happy to hear that she was calming down.
15 I asked, What worked? What changed? What is she
16 responding to? He says, Well, she was given some aspirin.
17 Said, Okay. And then I took some -- some of my own concern
18 off and my attention off of it at that point, knowing that
19 she seemed to be now recovering.
20 And then my next contact after that was when I
21 was -- I was up in Alain's office when another gal came in
22 and said, that she died.
23 Q. Who was the other gal that came in?
24 A. This is Kate Curley, is her name.
25 Q. What does she do with the Church?
47
1 A. She is the Qualifications Secretary in the
2 Flag Service Organization.
3 Q. Okay. How did -- who did she get the information
4 from, do you know?
5 A. I don't know. I think she got a call -- I'm not
6 sure. I don't know how else she would have gotten it
7 besides the phone call.
8 Q. Did you get that information before -- who was
9 with you when you got that information?
10 A. Alain.
11 Q. Alain.
12 Did Brian Anderson get that information after you
13 did or before you did?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. All right.
16 A. Normally it would be like either right before or
17 right after.
18 Q. Right.
19 A. I don't know who the person at the hospital chose
20 to notify first.
21 Q. Right.
22 The person from the hospital you're referring to
23 is a Church member or a person that works at the hospital?
24 A. Janice Johnson.
25 Q. It would have been Janice that made the call?
48
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. She called?
3 A. I think so.
4 Q. Okay. What did you do when you heard that
5 information?
6 A. I asked who died. I was like, Who died? It's
7 like, I've never heard someone walk into an office and talk
8 about someone dying, you know what I mean. Like, Who died?
9 Lisa I said, Lisa who? McPherson. Lisa McPherson, where?
10 I mean, I had no knowledge that she was taken to the
11 hospital, which was something that normally we would -- we
12 in OSA would be notified of, 'cause it presents a possible
13 situation that we would have to deal with, obviously. So
14 I'm like, you know, Where?
15 Q. So now OSA had to investigate the scenario here,
16 right?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. And who did that? Who led that charge from OSA?
19 A. Well, I -- I got whatever hysterical information
20 was coming out of Kate's mouth. She was very, like, upset.
21 And so I got whatever she knew.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. And either I said call OSA or something. And I'm
24 sure she would -- I don't know what she would have said.
25 I'm not going to guess. Anyway, I got whatever information
49
1 she had, which wasn't much, and I went over to my office.
2 And by the time I got there, there were several other people
3 there who had gotten word of this.
4 Q. All right. And did -- was there, I don't want to
5 use the word "investigation," but was there a fact gathering
6 operation instilled then in OSA into finding out exactly
7 what occurred? I say that because this looks like what this
8 is.
9 A. Most -- okay.
10 Q. I mean, this is December 5th.
11 A. Most of that is files information.
12 I mean, there wasn't like a meeting called with
13 the purpose of doing some kind of organized or uniform data
14 gathering type things. Just, you know, we really didn't
15 know what to do. It's, like, not a usual situation at all.
16 And a lot of people came into OSA to -- I don't know, maybe
17 different people had different purposes; not really knowing
18 what else to do, you know.
19 Q. Okay. Did -- who told you to do this?
20 A. I -- I don't recall that anybody did.
21 Q. You generated this on your own?
22 A. Somebody may have told me, I don't know. I don't
23 remember specifically. But it is a normal thing that I
24 would do. I mean, I wouldn't normally have to be told to
25 write a report out for something like -- any -- if any
50
1 situation occurs.
2 Q. Okay. Out of all of OSA, you're the only one that
3 did one of these or were there more of these created from
4 other people in OSA?
5 A. I think I'm the only one.
6 Q. Would you know that or are you --
7 A. Well, I don't remember seeing anything else, and
8 it wouldn't be another person's job to do that.
9 Q. Okay. It would be your job?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. What's the purpose of doing this?
12 A. To inform those who need to know of what occurred
13 so that a coordinated handling could be worked out and done.
14 Q. All right. And those people are who?
15 A. That would have been Brian Anderson, Judy Fontana,
16 our -- our Senior office in Los Angeles, Counsel. I mean, I
17 didn't write this for counsel particularly, there's a lot of
18 stuff in there I wouldn't put in something just for counsel,
19 but --
20 Q. Right.
21 A. -- knowing that the Legal Department would --
22 Q. There's some technical stuff in here?
23 A. Yeah, and they wouldn't know.
24 Anyway, that's who it would be written for.
25 Q. All right. Who were the people that came from
51
1 L.A. in reference to Lisa McPherson's case? I know a
2 couple, but I'm 'missing some people, I'm sure. I'm talking
3 about right after she died, who came from L.A. following
4 December 5th? Steilo, I know, came later.
5 A. Yeah. Ben Shaw came later as well.
6 Q. Ben Shaw came later. But they sent some people, I
7 think they sent some people over from L.A.
8 A. I don't remember that.
9 Q. You don't?
10 A. Unh-unh. It's not to say that nobody came.
11 Q. Lawyers maybe? Any lawyers? Elliott, did he show
12 up?
13 A. Elliott has come, but I don't know that it was --
14 Q. Right after?
15 A. It wasn't right after, it was later.
16 Q. Okay. Anybody else from L.A. that you can recall
17 that showed up there?
18 A. At that time, no.
19 Q. All right. This -- when did you --
20 MR. McGARRY: Fellows, when did the
21 Clearwater investigation begin? Right off the bat?
22 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Yeah, the night
23 of the 5th and then into -- actually, the morning of
24 the 6th, early morning of the 6th.
25 Q. So was there a -- did you gather any folders after
52
1 she died? I guess to create this, correct?
2 A. Well, I already had the folders.
3 Q. You had them?
4 A. I had the CF and the ethics folder.
5 Q. Right. So this was solely created from those
6 files?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You used other information that you had gained
9 either from communication with all the parties involved --
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. All right. Where did the PC folders go after she
12 died?
13 A. Well, there was a time period I don't know where
14 they were particularly, probably in the place where they
15 belong on the -- on the base, and eventually they did come
16 to my office and were packaged up and --
17 Q. And how many of them were there, do you remember?
18 A. Oh, I don't remember.
19 Q. More than one?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Pile of them?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Maybe seven?
24 A. I think more.
25 Q. More?
53
1 A. (The witness nods affirmatively.)
2 Q. Okay. And who ordered them from your office in
3 OSA?
4 A. I don't remember if it was Judy or if it was
5 Brian.
6 Q. All right. And what was the purpose of them being
7 ordered to OSA?
8 They're kept in a different place from your
9 office, correct?
10 A. Normally, yeah.
11 Q. Right.
12 Okay. So they ended up on your desk?
13 A. No, on the -- on the floor.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. There's a space there.
16 Q. All right. But you saw all of Lisa McPherson's
17 folders, PC folders on the floor there?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. And what period of time are we talking about here?
20 A. Some months later.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. May. I think it was May that we shipped them and
23 I know they didn't stay in my office very long at all.
24 Q. She died in December. So it would have been four
25 months later they end up in OSA, correct?
54
1 A. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Now, to the best of your knowledge, those PC
3 folders also contained the daily reports from the caregivers
4 that were looking after Lisa for a period of time at the
5 Cabana, correct?
6 A. Well, I don't know. I didn't see them.
7 Q. All right. Where else --
8 A. It seems that that's where they should be, yeah.
9 Q. All right. So you're thinking that Brian or one
10 of the Fontanas ordered those?
11 A. Yeah. Well, not -- not Humberto, it would have
12 been Judy.
13 Q. Judy.
14 All right. Why her?
15 A. She was the Legal Officer at that time.
16 Q. All right. And you said they were packaged up?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. And who did that?
19 A. Myself and, another gal that worked with me. She
20 wasn't in the office at the time of the death, she was out
21 on a medical leave.
22 Q. Just out of curiosity, how many people in your
23 office are Clear?
24 A. Out of curiosity?
25 Q. Right.
55
1 Well, you know why I bring that up?
2 A. No.
3 Q. I mean, 'cause you guys can't look in those
4 folders, right?
5 A. Right. Right.
6 Q. That's kind of funny.
7 A. Well, we weren't looking in the folders.
8 Q. I know you weren't. But there wasn't anybody in
9 your office that could.
10 A. No, there are people in my office that could.
11 Q. Who's that?
12 A. Brian.
13 Q. He's Clear?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. Mary Story.
17 Q. Story?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Judy Mercy.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. Judy Fontana.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. Humberto.
25 Q. All right. Did any of those people look in those
56
1 files?
2 A. Not that I saw.
3 Q. Okay. Did Brian look in those files?
4 A. I didn't see anybody look in the files.
5 Q. All right. So you just packaged them all up?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And why were they packaged up?
8 A. I didn't ask.
9 Q. All right. You said they were being shipped
10 somewhere?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Where were they being shipped?
13 A. To the Office of Special Affairs International in
14 Los Angeles.
15 Q. All right. And who requested that?
16 A. It was either -- I don't know who over there did,
17 but I got it either from Brian or Judy that that needed to
18 be done, and I didn't question it.
19 Q. Well, someone put a label on the thing,
20 Office of Special Affairs in L.A., attention so and so?
21 A. Yeah. I think it was the post of the Data Chief.
22 Q. Who's that?
23 A. That's Kathy O'Goreman. Data Chief,
24 OSA International.
25 Q. All right.
57
1 A. I don't know that she requested them specifically.
2 Q. All right. Is Ken Long's name familiar to you?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. Do you know who he is?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Who is he?
7 A. He is -- I don't know his position now. He works
8 in the Legal Department there in Los Angeles.
9 Q. All right. Do you know if he got those folders?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. All right. Carol Oakes, do you know who she is?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Who is she?
14 A. She either works in the Legal Department or
15 Data Department in OSA Int, International.
16 Q. So she's in L.A. also?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Do you know if she looked at those files?
19 A. No idea.
20 Q. All right. And Becky Ellenberg, do you know who
21 she is?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Who's she?
24 A. I don't know her position, but she's another staff
25 member there in Los Angeles.
58
1 Q. In L.A.?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Do you know if she looked at those files?
4 A. I don't know. I have no idea what they did over
5 there.
6 Q. Okay. Once the files went to L.A., as far as
7 you're concerned they're gone, you don't know what --
8 A. Exactly.
9 Q. -- what happened to them?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. You had a conversation, you indicated earlier in
12 our sit-down here, that you had with Glen Steilo; is that
13 correct? Did you tell me you talked to him, Steilo, the
14 fellow from L.A.?
15 A. I don't -- no, I don't think I said anything about
16 Glen here today.
17 Q. Oh, you didn't talk to him?
18 A. What's your question exactly and I'll answer.
19 Q. Well, my question is, did you talk to him?
20 A. I have spoken with him. He works with me.
21 Q. Okay. And why did he come from L.A.?
22 A. He came at the same time Ben Shaw came, and this
23 was at the time that the -- you know, where it was becoming
24 a real situation for the Church. It had been quiet for a
25 long time and then it looked like, you know, we were --
59
1 Q. Bubbling up again?
2 A. Yeah. So things were blowing up, and Glen Steilo
3 and Ben Shaw came from OSA International to help -- to help
4 us.
5 Q. Okay. With records and stuff?
6 A. Well, to help us handle the situation, whatever
7 that would be, hire counsel.
8 Q. Okay. So they -- they're working with the lawyers
9 as well as counsel?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Okay. All right. The -- did you ever see those
12 PC folders again after they went to L.A.?
13 A. Unh-unh.
14 Q. Never did?
15 A. Unh-unh.
16 Q. And when was that that they were packaged up,
17 April or May?
18 A. I think so.
19 Q. Of '96?
20 A. Yeah. My months might be wrong, but that's what I
21 think.
22 Q. That's fine. Believe me, I'm talking years apart
23 from when my next reference is going to be with those
24 records.
25 When I subpoena something -- you obviously know
60
1 that I've sent out dozens and dozens of subpoenas to the
2 Church?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. You don't know that?
5 A. Unh-unh.
6 Q. Who knows that? Who knows that from your end of
7 it, from the Church end of it?
8. A. Well, I would think Glen, who is in our
9 Legal Department, would know that.
10 Q. He's the one that ends up looking at them?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Is he the one that's -- the way the subpoena
13 thing's been working, I send the subpoena to the fellows,
14 Sandy and Lee, the Church counsel.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. And who is it they pick up the phone and say, hey,
17 I got a subpoena, we got to get some records, who's that
18 person? It's a real simple question. I'm having trouble
19 with it. It's been bothering me for weeks.
20 A. Really?
21 Q. Yeah.
22 A. Who in the Church would they call?
23 Q. Yeah, who would they call?
24 A. It, would be Ben Shaw or Glen.
25 Q. One of those two?
61
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. And then they might delegate some responsibilities
3 to various people to accomplish tasks in reference to
4 record keeping?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. All right. So right now, as far as you know,
7 when -- I don't want to know any privileged communications,
8 but I'm asking, they're the person -- first person they
9 contact in your office is Ben Shaw?
10 A. Right, or Glen.
11 Q. Or Glen?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. One of those two?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Would it have ever been Brian Anderson before
16 Ben Shaw?
17 A. On -- on the Lisa McPherson cycle?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Well, before -- before Ben and Glen came, we -- it
20 was quiet, like I say, and the attorney that we had at the
21 time was Bob Johnson.
22 Q. Right.
23 Well, when did they come? When did Shaw and
24 Steilo show up?
25 A. I think it was December or -- I remember they were
62
1 here for Christmas dinner.
2 Q. All right. So you've never seen those PC folders
3 again? To the best of your knowledge they're still in L.A.?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Don't know?
6 A. I don't know where they would have been sent from
7 there, if anywhere.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. Not -- not back in my office.
10 Q. Okay. Now, the reason why I asked all those
11 questions is because, see all these documents that I got
12 from the lawyers in reference to those subpoenas that I was
13 talking about? And they made the Internet, they're all over
14 the place. But these are the caretakers' notes, the whole
15 bunch of them. There's no trick here. This is what I got
16 from the lawyers in reference to the daily reports that were
17 being written by all those people that were looking after
18 Lisa.
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Do you know how and who assembled those reports?
21 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
22 Q. Who knows the answer to that?
23 A. I don't know. Our attorneys? I don't know.
24 Q. Not from these guys, no. Before they went to the
25 lawyers, who did that?
63
1 A. I would think those would have been gotten from
2 the PC folders.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. I'm like -- I'm just relaying how -- where things
5 would normally be. Those would normally be in the PC
6 folders which had already been sent to Los Angeles. So I
7 would assume someone in Los Angeles pulled those, Xeroxed
8 them and sent them, just to assume.
9 Q. Okay. All right. If you don't know, who does
10 know? Who knows the answer to that question?
11 MR. LAURO: I think the question is, do you
12 know who participated in document assembly?
13 THE WITNESS: In Los Angeles?
14 MR. McGARRY: Anywhere.
15 MR. LAURO: Either in Los Angeles after the
16 case arose or in response to the subpoenas that have
17 been issued, do you know who participated in obtaining
18 documents from Church locations or Church offices?
19 A. Well, those of us in OSA here would have gathered
20 what we had here. And in Los Angeles, I haven't been in
21 touch with them, but how it would work normally in dealing
22 with the legal situation, it would be the legal staff.
23 Q. Okay. Well, this is kind of a funny document
24 because -- that's why I covered that business about people
25 being Clear and not Clear in your office.
64
1 Can somebody gather that document without knowing
2 or reading it or looking at it out of the PC folder? They
3 can't really in your office unless it's one of the Clear
4 people, right?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. All right.
7 A. Now, there is -- there is information in PC
8 folders that is not Clear information.
9 Q. Well, that's a good question too.
10 Now, would this qualify as information that could
11 not be gazed upon by someone that was not Clear, these
12 caretaker notes?
13 A. No, not at all.
14 Q. So the answer is?
15 A. It's totally safe to look at those.
16 Q. Okay. That's my question. That's not -- so that
17 really wouldn't qualify as something like auditing, correct,
18 which would be the area that's protected?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Okay. So this -- these things in the PC folders,
21 although it's not technically auditing, these are
22 observations made by caretakers looking after Lisa, correct?
23 A. It's a typical kind of --
24 Q. Knowledge Report?
25 A. There are other kinds of reports that would end up
65
1 in a person's PC folders. Anything that would help them
2 spiritually. Some -- sometimes you find Knowledge Reports
3 in PC folders.
4 Q. Right. Right.
5 Okay. Now, back to the assembly of these reports.
6 Who is it that I can -- that I can talk to that will tell me
7 that they have knowledge of themselves or somebody else
8 gathering those reports I just showed you and handing those
9 over to lawyers? Who is that person?
10 A. I would be inclined to direct you to one of the
11 attorneys in the -- that the Office of Special Affairs
12 International has. They have in-house attorneys there.
13 Q. So the answer to that question is all the way out
14 in L.A. --
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. -- responsibility?
17 A. I don't know of any of us who would know what --
18 who did what there in Los Angeles.
19 Q. Well, they sent them, I assume, through your
20 office here and then they got handed over to the lawyers and
21 counsel for the Church, correct?
22 A. I assume. I don't know. I didn't see these
23 things come in the mail or however they came and who they
24 went to.
25 Q. All right. One more question: Who is the person
66
1 that knows the answer to that?
2 A. I would say either Ben Shaw or Glen Steilo.
3 Q. Steilo doesn't know.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. Brian Anderson doesn't know.
6 A. And did you ask the attorney who gave them to you,
7 who turned them over?
8 Q. Well, he's not -- I can't subpoena them, talk to
9 them, I got to go through you people.
10 A. I don't' know how -- I don't know who they got them
11 from.
12 Q. Okay. So I'm not going to get that answer today,
13 right? You don't know the answer?
14 A. Not from me.
15 Q. Obviously, you don't have any knowledge of that?
16 A. Unh-unh.
17 Q. Okay. Move on to something else.
18 Were you aware of any Committee of Evidence
19 hearings being convened on anybody?
20 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
21 Q. In reference to Lisa McPherson. I don't want to
22 just leave that open end.
23 I know a Committee of Evidence happens all the
24 time on people, right?
25 A. Yeah.
67
1 Q. On various people, if they commit an infraction or
2 don't follow the rules, correct?
3 A. Sometimes.
4 Q. Were any of them done on anybody that was remotely
5 corrected to Lisa McPherson?
6 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
7 Q. How about Brian Anderson?
8 A. No.
9 Q. He didn't have --
10 A. He did have one of these things later on, but it
11 wasn't because of this cycle.
12 Q. Something else that got messed up?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Okay. How about Alain Kartuzinski?
15 A. I never saw any -- any such thing on -- on anyone
16 in relation to this.
17 Q. Okay. So any other names I mention, it still
18 doesn't matter --
19 A. No.
20 Q. -- the answer is none of them?
21 A. Yep.
22 Q. How about Sec Check, who has the records of a
23 Sec Check being done on somebody? If I wanted to find out
24 if you ever had a Sec Check that had been done on you, would
25 there be a record of that?
68
1 A. That's something that would be in a PC folder.
2 Q. Your PC folder or somebody's PC folder?
3 A. Mine.
4 Q. Can you look in your PC folder?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you? Did you ever look at your PC folder?
7 A. No.
8. Q. On the higher level they can --
9 A. I'm not sure. They can put things in their PC
10 folder on the higher levels.
11 Q. If you wanted to go put something in your PC
12 folders, you --
13 A. Yes, I can.
14 Q. There is some security in reference to PC folders.
15 They aren't floating around. I can't say I'm going to go to
16 the warehouse and get all the PC folders. Nobody can just
17 walk in there and say, I'm going to look around, right?
18 A. Not just anybody, people who --
19 Q. Higher up people?
20 A. People who have the job of dealing with those can,
21 yeah.
22 Q. Recordkeeping.
23 How could you keep people -- how does the Church
24 keep people from seeing their own PC folders? Does