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Sworn Statement of Judy Goldsberry-Weber
| Date: | August 19, 1997 |
| Pages: | 142 |
1
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
IN RE:
INVESTIGATION
STATEMENT OF: JUDY K. GOLDSBERRY-WEBER
DATE: August 19, 1997
TIME: Began: 9:10 a.m.
Ended: 12:20 p.m.
PLACE: Criminal Justice Center
Office of the State Attorney
Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida
REPORTED BY: Ruth M. Martin, CSR, CP, RNR
Registered Merit Reporter
Notary Public
State of Florida at Large
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320
2
APPEARANCES:
MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
Office of the State Attorney
Criminal Justice Complex, Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida 33760
Attorney for State of Florida
BETSY S. SINGER, ESQUIRE
Paul & Singer, P.A.
SunTrust Financial Centre, Suite 3440
401 East Jackson Street
Tampa, Florida 33602
Attorney for the Witness
ALSO PRESENT:
WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
City of Clearwater Police Department
INDEX
EXAMINATION PAGE
BY MR. McGARRY 3
BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS 109
BY MR. McGARRY 145
CERTIFICATE OF OATH 147
3
1 The deponent herein,
2 JUDY K. GOLDSBERRY-WEBER,
3 being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
5 examined and testified as follows:
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. MaGARRY:
8 Q. Please state your name for the record.
9 A. Judy K. Goldsberry-Weber.
10 Q. And your date of birth?
11 A. 5/9/46.
12 Q. Okay. Where do you live?
13 A. I live at 503 Cleveland Street, Clearwater.
14 Q. You're here pursuant to a subpoena, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you're represented by an attorney today?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. McGARRY: Is there anything you'd like to
19 place on the record before we start?
20 MS. SINGER: Just the fact, my understanding
21 is Miss Goldsberry-Weber has been given immunity by the
22 State and she is here to testify honestly and
23 truthfully.
24 MR. McGARRY: Okay. That's pursuant to the
25 subpoena, right.
4
1 Okay. We're going to begin.
2 BY MR. McGARRY:
3 Q. May I call you Judy?
4 A. Sure. No problem with that.
5 Q. How long have you with the Church of Scientology?
6 A. I came down from Oregon in August of `94.
7 Q. Okay. That's not quite the answer to the
8 question, though, is it?
9 Were you a member of the Church in Oregon?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. How long?
12 A. Since December of `93.
13 Q. Okay. And how did you become involved with the
14 Church of Scientology?
15 A. I was going to a chiropractor who was a
16 Scientologist.
17 Q. In Oregon?
18 A. In Oregon, uh-huh.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And he gave me a book to read. And there were
21 some things happening. And so I got in contact with the
22 local Celebrity Center there, which is a branch of the
23 Church, and started taking some courses to help me.
24 Q. Okay. And you did that?
25 A. Yes, uh-huh.
5
1 Q. All right.
2 A. Then as things proceeded, then in the summer of
3 `94 some things in my life had changed, so --
4 Q. For the better, I hope?
5 A. Yes and no. My children -- my son had joined the
6 Navy and was going off to his own duty station, and my
7 daughter was married, and I was in a -- I was a divorced
8 person at that point. So my children didn't really need me
9 anymore, so it was an opportunity to expand my education.
10 And I was told about Florida and I came down to Florida.
11 Q. All right. So were you a member of Staff up there
12 in Oregon before you moved here or is it that when you
13 joined up there and then moved here?
14 A. Well, I was a member of the -- the Florida Staff
15 is a totally different organization. And I was not a member
16 of that part till I got down here.
17 Q. But you were just a parishioner in Oregon or were
18 you more than --
19 A. I was on Staff there, but it's a different -- down
20 here it's called the C Org, which is a higher group. It
21 would be like you're with the State's office --
22 Q. That's because this is Flag, right?
23 A. Right. You can come down to Flag for services,
24 but you don't necessarily have to join Staff.
25 Q. Right.
6
1 A. I chose -- and the Staff from here does not go
2 back to Oregon and Staff.
3 Q. I see.
4 A. It's like the -- each County's District Attorney's
5 office can come to the State office and do some training,
6 but you're not an employee of the State's office, you're an
7 employee of the district office. And that's how it is.
8 Each city or org has their own Staff stay there,
9 and then the higher Staff management that come to Flag are
10 C Org members. From a C Org member you can be sent anywhere
11 in the world. And that's what I joined when I came to Flag
12 and Staff. I could be sent anywhere.
13 Q. Now, in what position did you come to Clearwater
14 as a Staff member?
15 A. I came, after I had my initial training, to the
16 Medical Liaison Office.
17 Q. All right. And you received your initial training
18 here or in Oregon?
19 A. No, I received -- because I came onto the C Org
20 Staff, there's a special training and I only receive it
21 here.
22 Q. All right. This particular division that you went
23 into, the MLO Office --
24 Correct?
25 A. Uh-huh.
7
1 Q. -- who was in charge of that office when you first
2 came here?
A A. The -- when I first came it was a woman named
4 Emma Schamehorn.
5 Q. Okay. She's from Germany, right?
6 A. No, she's from Canada.
7 Q. Canada?
8 A. From British Columbia.
9 Q. And was there -- how many officers are there in
10 that office?
11 A. At that time there was just Emma. And we had a
12 physical therapist or -- she really wasn't -- she was from
13 Austria -- yeah, Austria, and she did physical fitness
14 programs for people. But there was no -- Emma was the only
15 Medical Liaison Officer. And then we had another,
16 Lily Semagie, who was a physician from Venezuela, who came
17 in part-time, but she had left shortly after I got there.
18 And then myself, I came on. I was -- Emma and I held the
19 position for over a year, almost a year and a half before
20 Janice and -- they came on in about May of `95.
21 Q. Laura?
22 A. And Laura. And -- Laura came in like March and
23 Janice came in May or June.
24 Q. Of `95?
25 A. Of `95. So -- and then Suzanne came about June of
8
1 `95.
2 Q. All right. Who was the -- how did they break down
3 the hierarchy within that office? Once those people were
4 added to the MLO Office, who was in charge, who was
5 assisting?
6 A. Okay. Emma became a different -- she handled
7 Public, basically, instead of Staff. When Emma and I were
8 there we just handled whoever came in, it wasn't designated
9 Staff MLO, Public MLO. Then they put Suzanne -- I had
10 originally been holding -- I was assigned the
11 Office Manager, but holding the Medical Liaison Office from
12 above. And then they put Suzanne in as the Office Manager,
13 Janice in as the main -- as Staff MLO, Laura and myself as
14 Deputy MLOs. Laura was for health and hygiene, and I became
15 the Deputy for the Hacienda.
16 And my duties then became -- I would cover for
17 Janice on her days off and when she was studying. And I
18 would cover Emma's, because Janice and Emma sometimes were
19 on study at the same time. So I had to hold both, and maybe
20 Laura might help if she was around.
21 Then my post was, I would take people to doctors'
22 appointments, to hospitals, get reports for them, check on
23 the people who were not on post.
24 Say you -- you were a junior to some -- to her,
25 and she would call and say, My junior didn't show up for
9
1 work this morning. So then it would -- I would be -- I had
2 a pager, and I would be paged, and go check on so and so,
3 they didn't show up to work, see if they're sick or what's
4 happening with then and if they were at the Hacienda. So
5 then I would do that, and then get back.
6 Q. So Janice would be called your Senior --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- at that time?
9 A. At that point, uh-huh.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. Suzanne Schuremberger Green was actually Senior to
12 Janice.
13 Q. Let's talk about some of your previous training
14 experiences that might have led you to get this particular
15 position in the Church in the first place.
16 What background do you have in the medical field?
17 A. In Oregon I had been an LPN for 35 years. I
18 didn't have my license currently. When I came to Florida I
19 didn't and I didn't have it in Oregon, I had let it lapse.
20 But what I had done, I had worked in doctors'
21 offices as the Physician's Assistant, doing different lab
22 procedures, EKGs, scheduling of appointments, you know,
23 A doing that kind of thing. Plus, I had been a respiratory
24 therapist for seven years at the University of Oregon Health
25 Science Center, which is the main teaching hospital in
10
1 Oregon. And so I had done that.
2 And the last five years prior to coming to -- to
3 Florida I had been living in homes, the people had terminal
4 illnesses or -- or were infirmed enough so they could stay
5 in their home and die rather than being put in nursing
6 homes. So I was doing that kind of stuff.
7 So they looked at me and said, Oh, yeah, I want --
8 they had trouble getting people to go into the MLO Office.
9 I said fine, I'm perfectly skilled to handle the body
10 problems and I can -- having worked in doctors' offices, one
11 of the things I had to do was check to see if -- I did the
12 preliminary screening on the patient and then would write it
13 down and the doctor would come in and verify and -- and
14 handle.
15 So I could say -- oh, somebody would come in and
16 complain, I have a sore throat. Without having to diagnose,
17 I could say, Well, yeah, it's red, or yeah, we need to take
18 you to a doctor. Or, you know, sometimes people would say,
19 I don't feel good and they really weren't ill, they just
20 wanted somebody to talk to. And I could say, Well, have you
21 tried, you know -- read a book? Show them a book and they'd
22 say, Oh, yeah, that's how I feel. I'd say okay.
23 Q. So you kind of had to be careful with your
24 services rendered at the Church because you might transcend
25 the boundaries of not having a license to practice --
11
1 A. Exactly.
2 Q. -- as a nurse?
3 A. That's right.
4 If I had any question, what I would do is, I had
5 doctors I would call. I have somebody who has -- is
6 coughing, has a dry, hacky cough. What do you recommend to
7 do? I had doctors that I could call and say, I have
8 somebody here who has, you know, got a headache, their
9 temperature is such and such. And they'd go, well, look in
10 their throat, tell me what their throat looks like. I'd say
11 okay -- usually they were sitting right next to me when I
12 would talk to the doctor.
13 Okay, they got a real red throat. Do you see any.
14 white spots on it? No. What do you want me to do? Now get
15 them down here to my office. So then I'd say, Okay, we're
16 going. Lot of times they'd say, No, Judy, have them gargle
17 with saltwater and do to -- do this and this and this and if
18 they're not better call me back and then we'll see them.
19 So that's what I did. I always called a physician
20 before I did anything.
21 Q. And that was an outside physician, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who would that typically be?
24 A. It would vary depending upon the day or who I
25 could get hold of. It may be --
12
1 Q. Were they Scientology physicians or anybody?
2 A. No, I didn't usually use a Scientology --
3 Q. Ever call Dr. Minkoff for any advice?
4 A. Occasionally. He -- not on a regular basis,
5 A because he worked at Port Richey Hospital in the emergency
6 room and he wasn't always available. It was easier -- and
7 he worked in the emergency room, he didn't handle family
8 practice.
9 Most of the time I used either the health --
10 County Health Department or I used the physicians in the
11 emergency room at Morton Plant Hospital. Or I would call
12 Dr. Alan Finklestein or Dr. Gregory James or the doctors at
13 Suncoast emergency. So I had a list of several that --
14 Q. Morton Plant being the closest?
15 A. Yeah. Yeah, at first I did a lot. And then I
16 had -- the end I did more with Suncoast because I
17 could have better access to them than Morton Plant.
18 Q. Is there anybody, to your knowledge, that was in
19 the MLO OFfice in November of 1995, or currently, that ever
20 had a current license in Florida to either be a nurse or a
21 doctor?
22 A. There was a lady now who's just come into the
23 MLO Office that has a Florida -- she let it lapse when she
24 came into the C Org, but she did have a Florida license for
25 nursing.
13
1 Q. Who's that?
2 A. Sylvia Jaylow.
3 Q. She wasn't there in 1995?
4 A. No, she wasn't. In 1995 we did not have anybody
5 who had any sort of license.
6 Q. To practice nursing or medicine?
7 A. That's right.
8 When I would talk to Dr. Minkoff or -- I also used
9 Dr. Donald Carrow a lot. If I did do anything with them, it
10 was under their instructions. And I had been assured by
11 them that if I followed their instructions, I was covered
12 for anything. So I made sure I followed their instructions
13 to the letter, because I had worked in Oregon ...
14 Q. The dentist, Dr. Houghton, is he considered part
15 of the MLO Office?
16 A. Yes, but he doesn't -- he supposedly -- he
17 doesn't -- when he was put in, he's a dentist and he should
18 only be doing dental cycles.
19 Q. All right. Let's talk about your religious
20 training with the Church. What level have you achieved on
21 the spiritual side of this training board?
22 A. Well, I have had several intenses of auditing
23 of -- I'm really what they consider on the lower level of
24 the -- of the bridge.
25 Q. Okay. But you're not -- you haven't achieved
14
1 Clear?
2 A. No. No, I'm still before --
3 Q. Do you intend to achieve that goal?
4 A. Oh, yeah.
5 Q. Everybody does, right?
6 A. Uh-huh. Yeah, that is one of othe majors -- major
7 things to achieve.
8 Q. Clear?
9 A. Yeah, attain Clear. And what that is, is just
10 things in life do not upset you.
11 Q. Right. I'm kind of familiar with what the concept
12 is.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. In fact, Lisa had just achieved that?
15 A. Yes, uh-huh. Yes, she had made --
16 Q. We'll get to some of that when we start talking
17 about her, because I think you -- you know something about
18 that.
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. All right. Let's go to November. We're going to
21 talk about the events that happened in November of `95
22 specifically when Lisa was in a car accident.
23 Had you ever met Lisa McPherson prior to this day?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Okay. And how was that?
15
1 A. Like I told the other Officers at the first
2 investigation, I had seen her earlier in the summer. She
3 had been sent over by her Auditor because she --
4 Q. Which was who?
5 A. I don't know. I just get -- I just got a piece of
6 paper stating, Please have a talk and see what is happening
7 with Lisa Mcpherson.
8 Q. Okay. Would that have been Mr. Kartuzinski, by
9 any chance? I know he's the Senior guy. in that department,
10 but do you know if she had --
11 A. No. I very rarely would know who the Auditor was.
12 Q. Well, just let me ask you a general question: If
13 she had-- she was obviously getting audited, right? That's
14 how you get to be Clear?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Did she -- that wouldn't be done by the head guy,
17 Kartuzinski, or would it?
18 A. Well, you -- I would get many dispatches, is what
19 we would call, or notes, they could come from the D of P,
20 which is the Director of Processing, somebody -- there could
21 be the Auditor would write to the CS and say I --
22 something's happening here, then the CS, the Case Manager,
23 the person in charge of that case, would send a note, send
24 her to the MLO.
25 Q. All right.
16
1 A. All we would get is a note, scribbled on maybe
2 this little piece of paper, stating interview this person,
3 see what's happening and send a report. Now, my report
4 would go back to the CS, is addressed to the CS.
5 Q. In the summer of `95 this occurred to you, right?
6 A. Of course.
7 Q. And you got a note from --
8 A. I just got a note just to interview her and see
9 what's happening with her.
10 Q. All right. Did you save that? Is that a document
11 somewhere that you can retrieve?
12 A. No. That -- that -- that note -- it would go
13 back -- if it had asked specific questions, sometimes they
14 were saved, sometimes they were not saved, depending upon
15 what -- but we would write a report that would go back to
16 the CS addressing those questions that were asked.
17 Q. Did you do that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And who did that report go back to?
20 A. It's -- all it's sent to is CS.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. It's stapled shut and sent back ...
23 Q. Ultimately, do you have knowledge of where that
24 document would ultimately end up?
25 A. Should be in the person's PC folder.
17
1 Q. That would be Lisa Mcpherson's PC folder?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. Okay. What did you say in that return document,
4 if you can recall?
5 A. I -- all I know was, I addressed where she was
6 from to find out if she was a local here, what she was
7 having trouble with.
8 Q. What trouble was that?
9 A. She was -- she didn't have much of an appetite and
10 she was having difficulty sleeping. So lot of times we find
11 out they're from a northern climate --
12 Q. Well, specifically what did she --
13 A. Well, those were --
14 Q. What happened with her?
15 A. This is what I'm saying.
16 Q. Oh, she was from a northern climate?
17 A. Yeah. Because I found she was not a native of
18 Clearwater.
19 Q. Right.
20 A. So the next thing we always ask is, How much
21 liquid are you drinking? You know, How long have you been
22 in Clearwater? Because coming from the West Coast to the
23 East Coast you have a time travel difference, you have a
24 little bit of jet lag, you're not going to go to sleep here
25 at the same time as you're used to on the West Coast. So we
18
1 try to find out what has changed in their environment that
2 might be contributing to their lack of sleep or lack of
3 eating.
4 A lot of people, when they get here where it's
5 hot, they automatically don't want to eat. You know, you
6 don't want to eat a big, heavy breakfast when, you know,
7 it's 90 degrees out. So -- so what we do is just find out
8 and -- so that's what I would do.
9 Q. All right. Well, rather than speak of what you
10 would do and what you would do with a lot of people, my
11 questions are kind of directed to what you did with Lisa.
12 A. Well, it's a standard thing. This is what I did
13 with Lisa.
14 Q. Well, I'm asking what you did with Lisa.
15 A. So what I did with Lisa is, I found out where she
16 was from, found out how much liquid she was drinking.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. Found out what vitamins she was taking. And asked
19 her if, you know, there was anything -- if she was having
20 trouble, how she was getting along with her Auditor, if
21 there was any -- anything that would be helpful to the CS
22 for her.
23 Q. All right. And in her responses to those areas.
24 that you just talked about, did you find out any troubling
25 areas?
19
1 A. Yeah, I found some areas.
2 I found she wasn't drinking very much water. She
3 was drinking like a quart of water or so. And I -- so
4 then -- there was some other things.
5 She didn't feel like she wanted to feel, so I gave
6 her a list of three doctors. Because I don't call and
7 make -- okay, you're going to doctor so and so at such and
8 such a time. I have a phone in the office that I was using.
9 So I gave her a list of three doctors, and it's their choice
10 as to which doctor they go to. I usually give a couple
11 chiropractors and a medical doctor. Or someone will say I
12 don't want any medical doctors, I only want chiropractors.
13 So then I -- I had a Rolodex, and I would just go through
14 and give them a list of the doctors, their addresses and the
15 phone numbers.
16 Sometimes -- now, Lisa decided -- at that point
17 she didn't make the appointment, 'cause I offer them the
18 phone right there. She decided at that point she would make
19 her own call from her room, she wanted to go back to her
20 room.
21 MS. SINGER: If I could just interrupt for a
22 minute. I think what he's asking is if you have any
23 recollection when Lisa came to visit you back then of
24 the specific things you might have put in the report.
25 THE WITNESS: Well, that -- this is what I'm
20
1 doing.
2 MS. SINGER: Okay.
3 A. What I do is I list out -- I asked her these
4 questions, because that's what the CS is wanting to know,
5 and who I -- and then said, Referred to doctor. And then I
6 make the notation, Lisa will make appointment and I will
7 send you a report as soon as Lisa gets back to me.
8 So then --
9 Q. Had she graduated at this point?
10 A. No.
11 Q. When was that, do you remember?
12 A. That was -- couple of weeks before her accident
13 was when she graduated to Clear.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. So this is way back. This is the beginning.
16 Q. So she's still finishing up the auditing to obtain
17 that graduation?
18 A. Yeah. This is where -- probably the start of the
19 auditing, because they can't do any auditing if they can't
20 reach a metabolism. And they usually have a problem, this
21 is when they come -- are sent to us because they can't get
22 them in to do an auditing session because of this problem.
23 Q. Is this graduation a pretty big deal? Is that
24 celebrated? Is that a process?
25 A. Oh, yeah, very big.
21
1 Q. What is it you get to do when you graduate to
2 Clear?
3 A. On Friday night, at the whole base everything
4 stops and we all go to graduation. So anybody who has
5 finished a -- a major action is acknowledged. They get up
6 on the stage, they're given a certificate. Now, for Clear,
7 they get a big framed -- and it's all framed in a beautiful
8 frame, and flowers, and they have their pictures taken, and
9 it's -- it's a very large thing.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. So 300 to -- you know, you got 500 to -- to 1000
12 people, depending upon what's happening there,
13 acknowledging.
14 Q. Back in the summer of '95, did Lisa ever give you
15 any indication that she was having trouble at -- at work or
16 where she was living?
17 A. She had made one comment; you know, after this
18 episode where I sent her to the doctor. She would come in a
19 couple of times and I'd check, see how she's doing.
20 Towards the end there she was saying that she was
21 having a little problem, she was going to have to go back
22 and clean something up at her -- she wanted to stay for some
23 additional services. And she was going to have to go back
24 to her residence and -- and her place of business and -- and
25 do something. As far as the specifics of what she was
22
1 having trouble with, no, she never discussed that with me.
2 All she said was that she had to go back and -- and get it
3 cleared for her to stay some -- some longer time.
4 Q. Longer time? Stay where?
5 A. Stay here.
6 Q. Working at the Church?
7 A. No. No, she wasn't working.
8 Q. Where?
9 A. She was never a member, but stay here to do some
10 additional services, some additional auditing or something.
11 Q. But she had to clear something up with work?
12 A. With work to stay here longer.
13 Q. Do you know where she worked?
14 A. No, I never ...
15 Q. But she was having a problem at work, in which she
16 was going to have to work out something there?
17 A. Yeah, to stay.
18 Q. To do more auditing to get to Clear?
19 A. Well, I didn't know what services she was on.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. So what I mean, what I'm saying, she just let me
22 know that she would be like -- she had planned for X number
23 of weeks, it was going to take some extra time, so she had
24 to go back and make sure her job was covered and -- and that
25 she could stay.
23
1 Q. How about her living arrangements, did she ever
2 experience any problems with that as far as you know?
3 A. I -- she never said. Only time I knew anything
4 was, she was going to have to extend her time.
5 Q. Okay. The only reason why I brought those up, you
6 specifically told Detective Sudler those two items were a
7 point of contention with her.
8 A. Well, she had just said, I mean in those two
9 things, that there were -- she didn't tell me specifics, she
10 just said that those were two things she had to work out,
11 was her living arrangements for -- due to that extension and
12 the extension of time at work. She had to make sure her
13 position was covered. And that she didn't seem to think it
14 was a major problem. I mean, it didn't -- otherwise it
15 would have stuck with me. It was just not -- because I
16 mean, it's just -- to me it was a normal situation that if
17 you normally were going to take a four week vacation and all
18 of a sudden you were going to need eight weeks --
19 Q. So you saw her further in the summer, on through
20 I the summer as she was progressing through this trouble,
21 troublesome period?
22 A. Yeah, couple -- yeah, three or four times.
23 Q. Okay. And she came to see you personally?
24 A. Yes. She had -- she was given the option to see
25 one of the other MLOs, and she elected -- she says, I've
24
1 started with you, I want to stay with you. And then -- so
2 that's -- and we do that.
3 Q. Did you work -- did you feel you worked her
4 through that troublesome period?
5 A. Oh, yes.
6 Q. You did?
7 A. Yes. She came back, she said, oh -- she was
8 happy --
9 Q. What do you attribute that success in that
10 particular moment of her life to?
11 A. Well, she had solved the problem with her sleeping
12 with the doctor she had seen, and she had worked out with
13 her Auditor whatever troubles, which is their areas to do.
14 And I was just happy that I was able -- she had come to me
15 there towards the end and had thanked me for getting her in
16 touch with ...
17 Q. Were you aware of her obtaining any medication in
18 order to relieve any of the symptoms or problems that she
19 was experiencing in the summer of '95?
20 A. I didn't know of any. I
21 Q. Okay. She didn't tell you that?
22 A. She never told me any medications.
23 Q. Did you ever talk to any doctors that prescribed
24 anything for her?
25 A. No.
25
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. The only report I got was from Dr. Decuypere, that
3 she felt she had handled the problem with sleep and ...
4 Q. Did Dr. Decuypere play a role in this summer of
5 '95 period in Lisa's life?
6 A. Yeah. Dr. Decuypere is the doctor that -- she was
7 one of the names that I had listed, given Lisa to see.
8 Q. What kind of doctor is she?
9 A. She's a chiropractor and a nutritionist.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. She's very skilled in nutrition. And --
12 Q. So you got some reports from Decuypere?
13 A. No, I just got the one, that she had written a
14 program, I don't know what the program was, I was not
15 privileged to that, except that I -- I had to give a report
16 to the CS that this -- the eating and sleep had been
17 handled. I got a report from Dr. Decuypere that she had
18 written a program and that Lisa seemed to be responding to
19 it, and she didn't see, you know, any further problems.
20 Lisa was able to metab and so there was no problems with her
21 auditing.
22 Q. What does that mean, metab?
23 A. She could -- her body was utilizing its food so
24 that it was able to use it right.
25 Q. Okay.
26
1 A. So that's a thing that -- a measurement they use
2 in auditing to see if -- to do it. So if you can't metab,
3 you can't get your, auditing sessions. So you need to metab.
4 That's a requirement.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. So I made sure-- I wrote the CS.
7 Then I didn't see -- occasionally Lisa -- I saw
8 her a couple other times, once walking on the street. She
9 was happy, elated, and ...
10 Q. All right. Any other personal contact with Lisa
11 in between that period of time and the accident she had?
12 A. Well, she came to see me after she had tested to
13 Clear and asked me to be at the graduation.
14 Q. All right. When was that?
15 A. Well, that would have been Thursday before the
16 Friday graduation. It was like a couple weeks before she
17 had the accident.
18 Q. All right.
19 A. And she had specifically come into the MLO
20 Office --
21 Q. Right.
22 A. -- and asked me, she was very excited and happy,
23 wanted me there at her graduation. And which I told her I
24 would -- you know, I'd be glad to be there.
25 Q. Right.
27
1 A. So I hadn't seen her so happy. I mean, it's -- it
2 was -- she was just walking on air, so to speak. I mean,
3 she was very bubbly and happy and laughing and joking and
4 just as if not a care in the world. And it was very, very
5 nice to see somebody that way. So I told her I would be,
6 and I made sure I was there on Friday night.
7 Q. All right. Let's go to the day of the accident.
8 When did you find out about that and who told you?
9 A. I was paged by Security. I got -- my pager went
10 off with a 911 and a number to answer. So I called that
11 number and happened to be Security.
12 Q. Do you remember who the Security Guard was?
13 A. No, I didn't recognize the voice.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. We'd had a bunch of new ones come on that post.
16 And he said they were sending a car for me to go
17 to Morton Plant Hospital, somebody had been in an accident.
18 Which I said -- I was thinking, because it was not a voice I
19 recognized, that maybe they had the wrong -- wrong pager.
20 And I said, Well, is this a Public or a Staff? And he
21 says -- I said, if it's a Public -- 'cause I was in the
22 middle of an important cycle I needed to finish. I didn't
23 want to just run off and leave. And so I was trying to
24 clarify
25 Q. You were in a teaching cycle or what kind --
28
1 A. I was looking -- somebody had come in that needed
2 to be -- a Public, and you just don't walk out.
3 Q. I understand.
4 A. And so I said, you know, How about sending Emma or
5 one of the others? They said no, I was specifically told --
6 Q. You were handling Public then though, right?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. So you got the impression, I take it, that was an
9 important --
10 A. So he said no, I have orders to get you there
11 right away.
12 Q. Did he say who the orders came from?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did a car come and get you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who was driving the car?
17 A. One of the Security Guards.
18 Q. All right. Where did they take you?
19 A. They took me to Morton Plant Hospital.
20 Q. When you arrived at Morton Plant Hospital, do you
21 remember who else was there from the Church at that time?
22 A. At that time?
23 Q. When you first got there.
24 A. When I first got there, there was two people I
25 didn't know, there was --
29
1 Q. Were they members of the Church?
2 A. No, they were people -- I found out later who they
3 were.
4 Q. Who they were?
5 A. They were some friends of Lisa's.
6 Q. Do you remember who they were?
7 A. No. Just a husband and wife. I was never given
8 their names.
9 Q. All right.
10 A. There was --
11 MR. McGARRY: Excuse me. Do you know who
12 those people were?
13 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Yeah, I think
14 so. I think it's co-workers.
15 THE WITNESS: No, there were additional
16 co-workers, but these two people were friends of
17 Lisa's.
18 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Okay.
19 Q. All right. Go ahead.
20 A. But I had Humberto Fontana, who was from the
21 Office of Special Affairs.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. Alain Kartuzinski was there. And Emma Schamehorn
24 was there.
25 Q. All right. So what did you do when you arrived at
30
1 the hospital?
2 A. And there were a couple other people moving
3 around.
4 Well, I -- I went over to -- Mr. Fontana came
5 towards me and told me that there was a -- one of our
6 parishioners had been involved in a car accident and could I
7 find out how they were and -- and get them out.
8 So I tried to talk to Emma to see what Emma -- if
9 Emma knew, and Emma just waved me off. So I thought, well,
10 okay, I'll just go on and find out.
11 So I went to the Admitting person, who was
12 somebody I knew, and laughingly asked -- I said, Well, I
13 understand I've got a parishioner here from -- somebody from
14 the Church of Scientology. She said yes, you do. And I
15 said, Is she in trauma or fast track or intermediate? And
16 so I knew which door to go through. And she says, Oh, she's
17 over in fast track by intermediate. And I says, Okay.
18 Well, that told me -- that gave me some
19 information right there. The trauma wing means that there's
20 something really severely wrong; the other areas, it's
21 something minor.
22 So I went through the door and I said, Is she back
23 in -- in 2 or 4? Because of the intermediate, knowing which
24 of those two rooms, they use it for different things. I
25 says, She's over in 2? And they said, yeah, how did you
31
1 know? I said, Well, I'm getting used to being around here.
2 So sure enough she was in 2. So she says, oh, go
3 on back and see her. So I hit the door and the -- they have
4 a button so it opens the door and I went on back. And as I
5 was going back to that area, I saw one of the nurses from
6 the emergency room. And I asked her, I said, who's taking
7 care of -- I understand I have somebody from the Church over
8 here in 2. She says, Oh, yeah, Judy, yeah, she's there.
9 Oh, go ahead and go on in. I says, Well, she's not badly
10 hurt or what's going on? She says, No, we've taken her
11 and -- and I said, What have you done?
12 And -- and so I kind of knew what procedures had
13 been done prior to my coming and what would be happening,
14 which would give me a time frame of what -- what's going on
15 and the picture of what's happening, so I would know to tell
16 the others that are sitting out there not knowing what's
17 happening at all.
18 Q. All right. Did you go ahead and see Lisa?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you talk to her?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What was the conversation about?
23 A. I went in and I -- the first -- I said hello, and
24 I didn't identify myself, for two reasons. One, so that I
25 could see the reaction that Lisa had to me.
32
1 Q. I Right.
2 A. Two, I didn't want to be putting words in her
3 mouth. I wanted to see her reaction and how she was doing.
4 So I -- by saying hello, that opened up the thing. She
5 said, Oh, hi, Judy. She instantly recognized me.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. So I -- we just -- you know, I says, oh -- we kept
8 it very light. I didn't ask her about the accident at
9 first. Because with my nursing background, I wanted to
10 check out to see -- compare what the doctor is saying, I
11 wanted to see how her reactions were, check to see if I
12 could see anything physically, any bumps or bruises or red
13 marks or -- or anything, to see what's happening with her,
14 information that I could ask the doctor about. Well, have
15 you checked such and such? And see what was happening, how
16 her reaction was. By letting her talk, with my nursing
17 background, I would see if it was a neurological thing.
18 Q. What did she say?
19 A. Well, she -- her words were -- she recognized me.
20 She acknowledged who I was. And she kept -- you know, she
21 says -- so I said -- you know, acknowledged, Oh, hi. And
22 she goes, you know, I want to get out of here. I go, Okay.
23 Why? Well, she says, I hate all this noise and I hate, you
24 know, this confusion around here. It's, you know,
25 bothersome. I want to be where it's quiet. I just don't
33
1 like what's happening. I said, Well, have you talked to the
2 doctor about it? Yeah, but they keep sending me characters
3 in here and they wanted -- they're poking me and prodding
4 me. I said, okay, tell me about what happened. So then she
5 told me, you know, she -- you know, the accident.
6 Q. Did she tell you why she took her clothes off and
7 walked down the street naked? I
8 A. No. She did a foolish thing. She said, I was
9 running down the street without clothes.
10 Q. She didn't say why she did that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ask her?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you not think that was important, to ask her
15 that?
16 A. It was not -- at that point I didn't -- I was just
17 getting information and it was --
18 Q. That's what I'm asking you though. That would be
19 information that I would think would be relatively crucial
20 to a decision on whether or not she needed further
21 evaluation.
22 A. She just said she -- she didn't feel good. You
23 know, it was just an accident. I've been involved with
24 other people and sometimes you do crazy things that you
25 later regret. And I wanted to see whether -- you know, if
34
1 there was any neurological damage or any real reason for
2 this. And it wasn't my place that --
3 Q. But you didn't specifically ask her why she did
4 that?
5 A. No, because it -- you know, I --
6 Q. Did anybody ask her that that was in your
7 presence?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. What was your course of action at that
10 point?
11 A. What I did was, I went back out -- she asked me
12 again, I want to get out of here. I says, That's -- that's
13 what you want to do? Let me check to see what the
14 doctors -- see what they've done and see what -- what their
15 recommendations are.
16 Q. Who was the attending physician at that time?
17 A. Dr. Lovett.
18 Q. Did you speak with Dr. Lovett?
19 A. Oh, yes, I did.
20 Q. And what was his position on her?
21 A. He -- when I went to him, he did not want to
22 release her. He wanted her put in a psychiatric observation.
23 unit.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. And so I said -- so I said -- I asked him, I said,
35
1 Well, tell me, did she have a -- why are you wanting to do
2 that? Are you finding anything in your tests that show her
3 to be harmful to herself or what -- you know, what are your
4 indicators to do this? Have you had a psych evaluator look
5 at her?
6 Q. And in fact there was somebody there?
7 A. Yes. Yes, he -- the psych --
8 Q. Who was that?
9 A. I don't remember his name right off.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. But I remember who he was.
12 Q. Did you talk to him?
13 A. Yes, I did, because --
14 MR. McGARRY: What's his name?
15 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Joe Price.
16 A. Yeah, uh-huh.
17 Q. You talked to Joe Price?
18 A. Yeah. He was sitting there. I turned to him,
19 because Dr. Lovett and I were standing, and Dr. Lovett
20 pointed to him, says, Well, I had him do it. so I looked --
21 I asked Mr. Price, asked -- he said, Well, I'm a nurse
22 evaluator --. I said, Are you a psychiatrist or psychologist?
23 No, I'm a nurse, you know, I have my degree. So I said,
24 Fine. What are your criteria to put her in a psych
25 evaluation -- what is your evaluation of her? He says she
36
1 didn't meet the evaluation to hold her in a psychiatric
2 unit.
3 Q. That would be by Baker Act criteria, is that what
4 you're referring to?
5 A. I -- yeah.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. So I said, I don't know what -- you know, I says,
8 I don't know -- when I asked him what's the criteria, I
9 says, I don't know which one you're using here, but, I said,
10 does she meet the criteria that you use in this hospital for
11 admission to a psychiatric unit? At which point he said no.
12 Q. Okay. What was Lovett's position on that?
13 A. Lovett was totally -- I had never seen this man
14 so--
15 Q. You've met him before?
16 A. Oh, yes. I'd worked with him on several other
17 people.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And he was so agitated and angry. And it was like
20 he and this psych evaluator had been having arguments,
21 because I found out later from the nurse, the nurses that I
22 knew, that they had been literally screaming at each other,
23 I because Lovett had wanted her put in the psychiatric --
24 Lovett is not an employee of the hospital, he is a
25 subcontractor, so he cannot admit her, he has to have a
37
1 doctor on staff admit her. She didn't meet the criteria,
2 but yet he wanted -- was demanding them to do it.
3 So I was trying to defuse the situation and said
4 to Lovett, well, does she have anything physically wrong
5 with her that, to make you ease, that we could put her in
6 for 24-hour observation in a regular hospital room and then,
7 if something comes up, they -- we can have her evaluated?
8 Well, No, was his answer. I says, Does she have a
9 concussion? Does she have any head injury? Does she have
10 any possible internal injuries that would -- and all he was
11 ranting and raving, and I mean it was a real rant and rave,
12 you know, her history, she could possibly kill herself, her
13 brother and her father committed suicide, she's a potential
14 suicide. And I go --
15 Q. Did you know that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You didn't know that beforehand?
18 A. No. That's -- that isn't something that I would
19 have had privilege.
20 But I kept saying, Okay, wait a minute. If you're
21 saying this and this psych evaluator -- does he know this
22 history? Well, Yeah, he knew it. And I looked at Mr. Price
23 and I said, like I'm talking to you, and I said, Do you
24 think -- you're the expert in this, does she fit what you
25 would think is a potential suicide? Well, he says, no.
38
1 Q. What was your position in this?
2 A. My position was to see if there was any physical
3 situation that would cause a problem for her down the road
4 or how to keep her from being put in the psych unit, if it
S was needed, to agree to put her in an observation room, if
6 that was what needed to be.
7 Q. Would you describe yourself as the point person in
8 this whole thing for the Church?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. You were the one doing all the --
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. -- negotiating with the doctors?
13 A. Yeah, I was.
14 Q All right.
15 A. Because I had established a rapport with them, had
16 established that I took good care of them. Mr. Fontana had
17 tried and was -- he had met a lot of resistance, because he
18 had come -- I don't know what he had done prior to my
19 getting there; but it had caused some animosities, and I was
20 in there to try to soothe feathers and see what -- what I
21 could do for the best of Lisa and what she wanted, if it was
22 physically possible.
23 Now, what I had been told was, if she had a
24 physical situation that needed her to be kept in an -- in
25 the hospital for observation, then they wanted her to do
39
1 that.
2 Q. Who told you that?
3 A. Mr. Fontana and Mr. Kartuzinski.
4 Because I had gone back out to -- to them and
5 said, Look, I talked with Lisa, she recognized me, we're
6 trying to do the paperwork, I'm meeting with the doctors to
7 see what happened. You know, What do you guys want done?
8 And they -- that's what they told me, Yeah, keep -- if you
9 can put her in the regular hospital room where one of us can
10 stay with her and they'll agree to it, go ahead and have her
11 moved there, just don't have her put in the psych.
12 Q. Why is that?
13 A. Because the Church doesn't like psych problems.
14 Because of the drugs, they create problems.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. We have no problems with medical treatment.
17 Q. But you do have problems with psychotherapy?
18 A. Yeah. Yeah.
19 So what we wanted was to see if -- what --
20 Q. Was your position that same way?
21 A. Mine?
22 Q. Yeah.
23 A. I follow the Church rulings.
24 Q. Well, the answer is yes?
25 A. Uh-huh.
40
1 Q. Okay. All right.
2 A. But I -- you know, if -- so what I did was, I went
3 back in to the doctors, to Dr. Lovett and to Mr. Price, and
4 Mr. Price kept saying, I'm writing up a report, she's not --
5 'cause Dr. Lovett was still browbeating him, just screaming
6 at him, he wanted her in there. And they were having a
7 real -- and I -- I mean, it was almost comical to me. And I
S didn't dare laugh, but it was -- I had never seen this man
9 be so childish about a situation.
10 So I went to them and said, Okay, you know, what
11 I tests have you run? Have you done -- you know, what -- what
12 are her symptoms? He told me. I said, Have you done the
13 chest -- you know, the x-rays? Yeah. Have you drawn the
14 blood? Yeah. Have you found anything? No.
15 I said, Okay, what if she -- she wants to leave.
16 Is there any reason -- I didn't have access to the chart to
17 know what tests or what -- what -- what they did or what,
18 except that there's a board in the emergency room with a
19 person's name and the bed number they're in and what I
20 tests -- they put a little dot, a magnetic marker, red
21 meaning it hasn't been done, green meaning it's been done,
22 and then it's a progress board as to what tests and
23 everything.
24 Well, I took a look and saw what -- what they had
25 done. And so I knew where -- where they were going. So I
41
1 knew in the time frame, because I know it takes an hour for
2 them to get the blood results, takes 20 -- depending upon
3 what x-ray series they've -- they do, how long it takes them
4 to have it developed and a preliminary reading.
5 Q. Who's the person that has to sign her out of that
6 hospital?
7 A. Lovett is the doctor who has to make the
8 recommendation, because he was the -- the main. However,
9 since she was -- he would not sign her out, even though he
10 could tell me there was no reason to admit her, he would not
11 sign her -- do a normal sign-out.
12 Q. How did she get out?
13 A. He was requesting -- he was making her sign
14 herself out, a waiver, that she was leaving the hospital
15 against medical advice. That was the only way he would let
16 her out.
17 And he also turned to me and -- you know, just to
18 even get him to start that, I turned to him and I said, Are
19 you telling me there's no physical reason for her to stay,
20 but you're still wanting her under observation, yet you've
21 worked with me on many other people, how about if I take
22 responsibility to stay with her, take care of her, are you
23 willing to let her go? At that point he backed off and kind
24 of said, Well, I guess. I said, You've worked with me,
25 we've done for many people.
42
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. Have I ever problem -- have I ever had a problem?
3 Q. You did that, right?
4 A. If there was something that did come up, didn't I
5 you? So he had to say so, Yeah, you've always done
6 that. So I said, Fine. Are you willing to let her come if
7 I take care of her? At that point he said -- he conceded.
8 And Mr. Price sat there and said, Hey that's the best idea.
9 Q. Was there a document filled out to --
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. -- memorialize that?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. So the nurse -- so I said, Okay, you start the
15 paperwork. He says, Well, I have to have the nurses get it
16 and I'll have to get it.
17 Q. Did Lisa sign it?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Okay. Is that the document right there?
20 A. I --
21 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: This is a copy.
22 A. Yeah. Yeah. And you see, Lisa and I signed it.
23 Because that was the only way Dr. Decuypere -- that was the
24 only way Dr. Lovett would let me take her, is I would be
25 responsible, because Dr. Decuypere was not a member of the
43
1 Church as on Staff. I was the person responsible.
2 Q. So you --
3 A. And he turned --
4 Q. -- told them you would be responsible and you
5 signed this document saying that --
6 A. Yes.
A Q. -- you would be?
8 A. Yes.
9 And he point blank pointed his finger at me, I'll
10 never -- he'd never done this before, and he's never done it
11 since, and it was why -- it just really kind of got to me,
12 because he pointed his finger and he just shook it at me and
13 just was vehement in his manner, I'm holding you personally
14 responsible and if anything happens, I'm gonna nail you.
lS And I thought, he never -- I mean, the tone of voice, his
16 demeanor had never, ever been that way to me.
17 Q. Well, she is dead now.
18 A. I understand that.
19 Q. Okay. So who transported Lisa from the hospital?
20 A. Well, as I -- the chain of events was, I went back
21 out and told them, Mr. Kartuzinski and Mr. Fontana, that we
22 were arranging that, and that she was going to be released
23 in my -- my care. And I said -- well, I didn't have my
24 vehicle. I said, I don't know what's going on. They --
25 they told me, You just go with -- get her signed out and
44
1 we'll talk to you when you came out.
2 Q. How was Lisa dressed when you saw her?
3 A. The first time she was in the hospital gown.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. And then when she was told she could leave, she
6 had a -- one of these long T-shirts on.
7 Q. Where did she get that?
8 A. I don't know. I found out later, at the time I
9 did not know who had brought it in.
10 Q. Okay. Do you know now? .
11 A. I do know now that her friends had brought it.
12 When they found out she had been taken to the hospital,
13 they --
14 Q. You don't know what happened to her car or
15 anything?
16 A. No, I didn't -- no.
17 Q. You don't know what happened to the clothes she
18 was wearing when she was in the car?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Personal effects, anything like that?
21 A. No. All I got told later was, as I was signing
22 her out I said, I'm taking her, and they said that the
23 friends would take -- Mr. Fontana, these friends will take
24 care of anything that's needed.
25 Q. Okay. Whose car did she get in?
45
1 A. I walked her out -- I walked her from her room in
2 the ER out to the -- through the doors. She got into
3 Mr. Kartuzinski's car.
4 Q. Was he in the car with her?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Okay. So just the two of them?
7 A. I don't know, because Mr. Fontana took me as we
8 left, I don't know who was in Mr. Kartuzinski's.
9 Q. You didn't go back with the Security Guard, you
10 went back with Mr. Fontana?
11 A. Yeah, Mr. Fontana. Security guard just dropped me
12 off and went back to the base.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. As I left Lisa, I told her I'd have to go get my
15 things -- I was in a uniform. I didn't have a nightgown or
16 anything. I said, I'll have to go get things to spend the
17 night and I'll see you later.
18 Q. I'm not following. Who do you say that to?
19 A. Lisa.
20 Q. You said you had to go back --
21 A. I had to go back to my place to get my stuff. As
22 we were walking out Lisa was saying, Judy, I want you to be
23 there with me. And I said, Yeah, I signed -- and I was
24 telling Mr. Kartuzinski and Mr. Fontana, I've signed to be
2S the responsible person.
46
1 Q. So you told her you're, going to go back and get
2 your effects?
3 A. I would have to go get my effects.
4 Q. And meet her downtown?
5 A. And meet her at her place.
6 Q. Whose place?
7 A. At her place.
8 Q. Lisa's place?
9 A. Lisa's place. Because I didn't know exactly where
10 she was living.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Mr. Kartuzinski was gonna take her, and so I would
13 be told -- they would take me to where Lisa was.
14 Q. Did you do that?
15 A. No. As I got out to the Hacienda, Mr. Fontana
16 told me, he says, Judy, you've been up all day, you were up
17 half the night, we'll have Suzanne Green, or Schuremberger
18 at that point, we'll have her stay with Lisa tonight, 'cause
19 she knows her.
20 And that was another thing. Lisa had wanted --
21 she says, I only want somebody I know, and I conveyed that,
22 to be around her. Because one of the things --
23 Q. We'll skip to the conversation about, did you
24 entertain a conversation with Lisa that said, we're going to
25 take you and we're not going to take you home, we're going
47
1 to take you to the Church?
2 A. I did not ever know anything about that.
3 Q. So you're --
4 A. I did not have that conversation.
5 Q. Your assumption when you left there, she was going
6 home, somebody was going home with her, and that's where she
7 was going?
8 A. Not her home.
9 Q. I mean her house.
10 A. Her house.
11 Q. Where she was living?
12 A. Wherever she was living.
13 Q. Her regular place?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So you didn't know anything about her going to the
16 hotel?
17 A. No. All I was told was -- was to take her -- the
18 agreement with Dr. Lovett and Mr. Price was that we would
19 get her to wherever she was going, and I assumed it was her
20 room, it was going to be a place where it was quiet, and
21 that nothing would be there that she would harm herself.
22 Q. And you were going to take care of her?
23 A. And I was going to take care of her, because
24 Lovett had put that responsibility on me and Lisa had asked
25 me to be there, so --
48
1 Q. All right. Fontana told you that wasn't going to
2 happen?
3 A. Not that night. He says, But you need to stay on
4 top of all of this and keep me informed of what's happening.
5 And since you've been made responsible, you need to stay on
6 top of what's happening.
7 So the next -- so beings that he was Senior to me,
8 I says okay. So I went and woke Suzanne up, because she
9 lived in the same room as I did. And she had a long
10 A discussion with him.
11 Q. 503 Cleveland?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Okay. I
14 A. And so she --
15 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Can we stop a
16 minute. 503 Cleveland is not a residence.
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: You're really
19 living where?
20 THE WITNESS: 551 North Saturn.
21 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: 503 is just a
22 drop, a mail drop on Cleveland Street.
23 MR. McGARRY: All right.
24 THE WITNESS: It's also where our training
25 is, our main training.
49
1 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Wanted to clear
2 the record. It sounds like you were living there.
3 THE WITNESS: Oh. That's the -- the address
4 we use for everything, 'cause there's no mail delivery
5 out at Saturn.
6 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Okay.
7 A. So -- so Suzanne came in, she went out and talked
8 with Mr. Fontana, they were gone quite a while. She came
9 back in, storming, and she picked up some clothes and left.
10 Q. What do you mean, storming? She wasn't happy with
11 the assignment?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Whatever it was --
1S Q. Do you know why she wasn't happy with the
16 assignment?
17 A. No. No.
18 Q. What level of spiritual, if you know, auditing has
19 she achieved?
20 A. Suzanne?
21 Q. Yeah.
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Is she Clear or not Clear?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. You don't know if she's Clear or not?
50
1 A. I don't know that.
2 Q. She was your roommate, right?
3 A. Yeah. She didn't have the Clear bracelet on, so I
4 don't think she was.
5 Q. All right. So she left to go handle this task --
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. -- in your stead?
8 A. In my place.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. And I had again offered to, you know, grab stuff
11 and go, but I was told no.
12 So I went onto post the next morning. And I had
13 some cycles I had to do and so I went and did those, and
14 when I came back into the office, you know, I had asked what
15 was happening, you know, where Janice was, 'cause I got a
16 page in and so forth, and I was told that she -- there was
17 I an important cycle she was on, I wasn't told what the cycle
18 was.
19 Q. Who was on?
20 A. That Janice was on.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. And so it was a couple of days before I connected
23 with Janice. And I asked her what -- how Lisa was doing or
24 what was going on and if she needed me. I knew they were
25 having trouble, they were having trouble finding people to
51
1 do the watch. Which, by a watch, we mean have somebody with
2 her.
3 Q. Right. Well, we're skipping over some areas that
4 I need to cover here.
5 You're saying you, from the time that you got home
6 that night, Fontana drops you off, he says you're not going
7 to follow up what you said you were going to follow up on,
8 that your roommate's going to do that instead of you, that's
9 in the evening, right, 'cause now --
10 A. No, this is like three o'clock in the morning.
11 Q. Three o'clock, okay.
12 So you guys have been in the hospital all night?
13 A. I've been in the hospital all night.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. So it's like three o'clock in the morning. He's
16 looking like, I had been up already for 24 hours.
17 Q. So he employs your roommate, Suzanne, to handle
18 that?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Now, do you know what she did?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Is she still your roommate?
23 A. No.
24 Q. How long was she your roommate after -- after that
25 day?
52
1 A. Gosh, till she married Clay.
2 Q. Well, I mean, sometime after that --
3 A. Oh, yeah.
4 Q. -- you got together?
5 A. Oh, yeah.
6 Q. You didn't have a conversation with her and say,
7 Hey, what happened three o'clock in the morning when you
8 went over to Lisa McPherson's house?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Never did?
11 A. No. Because I never had a direct thing. I heard
12 pieces of it, but not an exact blow by blow description, no.
13 Q. I would think that this event was fairly
14 monumental in your life as a Scientologist, that you would
15 have a conversation with your roommate, Suzanne, about the
16 job that she employed that was supposed to be yours --
17 A. Right. I
18 Q. -- and which you promised Lovett that you'd take
19 on.
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. And you never asked her, did you do it, did you go
22 to her house, what did you do?
23 A. Oh, I knew -- I knew she was not on post. So I
24 knew -- when I got with Janice and I was hearing -- Suzanne
2S had been there, she had not been back to our room. I had
53
1 even been asked to get clothes for her, for Suzanne. But I
2 was not -- she didn't leave Lisa.
3 Q. You were asked to get clothes for who?
4 A. For Suzanne, and take them to the MLO Office and
5 then they were taken to wherever --
6 Q. From your place?
7 A. From the MLO Office. Yeah, I got it out, clothes,
8 additional clothes for her that was taken, and all I was
9 told was she was on the watch.
10 Q. Suzanne was?
11 A. Yeah.
12 So at that point, that was when I told Janice that
13 I was perfectly willing to take my turn at watch, that I --
14 you know, I really had felt, you know, I should be involved.
15 Because I said, What's happening with Lisa?
16 In case -- because, see, my job, like I told you,
17 I was to take people to these doctors' appointments. The next
18 day I had nine people to take to appointments, was one of
19 the reasons I -- you know, I had other things. To take
20 me -- I was the only one with a vehicle. To take me and not
21 have me doing that would have meant more people could not
22 have gotten to their doctor's appointment.
23 Q. When was this conversation you had with Janice?
24 A. Probably 48 hours after the hospital situation.
25 She had been out of the hospital that long.
54
1 Q. So you don't know anything about Suzanne going to
2 Lisa's house at three o'clock in the morning?
3 A. All I know is she did leave with Mr. Fontana, and
4 I was -- the next evening I had a note to put clothes in
5 a -- in a bag and bring them to the MLO Office the next day,
6 which I did.
7 Q. All right. And --
8 A. I didn't see Suzanne --
9 Q. You've never talked with Suzanne about that night?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Not even since Lisa's been dead and this
12 investigation has gone on?
13 A. Suzanne wasn't even on the base much after --
14 Suzanne moved to the QI with her new husband to be with her
15 kids.
16 Q. Where is that?
17 A. The QI is over on 19, Highway 19, almost in Largo,
18 which is quite a ways away from us. So people that live
19 there --
20 Q. But that was sometime long after Lisa died?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. I'm talking about in between that period of time
23 when you guys are living in the same place. You never had a
24 conversation with her saying, Hey, what's going on here with
25 Lisa, what happened?
55
1 A. No, we -- from the time -- we were all told not to
2 discuss this.
3 Q. Who told you that?
4 A. After the first interview. I didn't even know she
5 had died --
6 Q. "First interview" is whose first interview?
7 A. The first interview I had with -- before --
8 about -- well, let's see. From the time she died till this
9 thing, I didn't -- after my conversation with Janice, Janice
10 told me that I was not to ask any questions about Lisa, that
11 it was being taken care of and just to forget it, everything
12 concerned. I was not --
13 Q. Janice said that to you?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. When?
16 A. That -- that 48 hours after.
17 Q. 48 hours after that Janice said that to you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And where did this conversation take place?
20 A. In the MLO Office.
21 Q. And who was present besides the two of you?
22 A. No one else. I made her come in my office.
23 Q. And the reason why you had her come into your
24 office was what, you wanted an explanation about what was
25 going on?
56
1 A. Yep, I sure did.
2 Q. And the reason why is because you told Dr. Lovett
3 you were going to take care of Lisa?
4 A. Well, that, and if I had signed that paper, that
5 if anything -- the demeanor that he had and the fact that I
6 was in and out of the Morton Plant Hospital several times a
7 week, that in case he asked me what was happening with her,
8 which occasionally he did ask me about people I had brought
9 in --
10 Q. This conversation with Janice, let me get back to
11 that before we get off-line here. You asked her to come to
12 talk to you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the subject of the conversation was
15 Lisa McPherson?
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. Now, it was your understanding who was in charge
18 of that watch?
19 A. Janice.
20 Q. Okay. And Janice, when you asked her what was
21 going on, she said?
22 A. None of your concern, you're off of it.
23 Q. None of your concern, you're off of it?
24 A. And that's when I had words with her about --
25 Q. I want to know why you were taken off of it.
57
1 A. I have no idea.
2 Q. Well, Lovett probably wants to know why you were
3 taken off of it.
4 A. That's right. I -- I had no idea. And that's
A what I wanted to know. I said, I'm skilled. If -- you
6 know, What's happening with her? If I have to talk to
7 Lovett, I need to know. Mr. Fontana had told me I was
8 supposed to stay on top of it, now you're telling me I'm
9 not. She says, You don't discuss this with anybody and you
10 don't -- you're off of it. End of subject.
11 So she and I had a lot of words over that.
12 Q. Well, tell me about those words. That's what I
13 want to know about.
14 A. Well, that's -- I --
15 Q. Other words other than this conversation? Did you
16 have another conversation with her or was this the only
17 conversation?
18 A. Yeah, I had several conversations with her.
19 Q. Well, I want to hear about those too.
20 A. Because I was -- I felt that -- I said, I at least
21 want to talk to Lisa or give her a note, because Lisa had
22 begged me to be there to help her. And I had promised her.
23 And I'm a person that if I promise somebody I'm going to do
24 something, I take that promise very, very serious. And it
25 upset me greatly that my promise was being trashed. It was
58
1 my personal integrity.
2 Q. Right.
3 A. And I was angry about that. And I wanted to know
4 who. And -- and I said, At least give me -- let me write it
5 out so that Lisa knows that I had attempted it and that
6 others have changed it, so that Lisa knows that I have
7 honored what I told her I would do.
8 I said, this has been a thing with Lisa. This is
9 why Lisa always came to me, was she could count on me doing
10 what I said I would do for her. And Janice told me in no
11 uncertain terms, she was my Senior, she was in charge of it,
12 and to get the hell out of it.
13 Q. All right. When did you -- when did you first
14 learn -- this conversation is taking place a couple days
15 after Lisa had been --
16 A. When did I learn that she died?
17 Q. No. We'll get to that.
18 I want to know when you learned that she was
19 placed in the Church Cabana room over there. You had no
20 idea they were doing that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. When did you learn that?
23 A. When I had been told I needed to go to an Eckerd's
24 drugstore, which was not the normal Eckerd's drugstore that
25 we used, and pick up some sedatives for Lisa that
59
1 Dr. Minkoff had prescribed.
2 Q. You picked those up?
3 A. Yes, and I had to sign for them. And I had to
4 bring them back to the Fort Harrison and give them to the
5 Security Chief.
6 Q. And that was -- do you remember what day that was?
7 A. No, I don't.
8 Q. Well, she had her auto accident on Saturday.
9 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Saturday,
10 November 18th.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Sunday or Monday maybe?
13 A. It was probably a Monday, because -- no, it was a
14 Sunday.
15 Q. Well, it looks like it might have been Monday.
16 A. Because --
17 Q. Prescription for Valium, I think, is Monday.
18 A. Yeah, Monday.
19 Q. Let's go with Monday.
20 A. It's one of those days. But I -- the thing that
21 got me was, it was a total different Eckerd's than we
22 I normally use. We usually use the one right next to --
23 Q. Why did you think that was important?
24 A. Well, I mean, it was just out of sequence. If
25 Dr. Minkoff had -- normally would use -- to do a
60
1 prescription, to call in, he always would ask me where, when
2 he would see the executives, Where do you want it called?
3 Q. Right.
4 A. And I would give him the Eckerd's there -- we
5 usually used either (the one on Cleveland or the one on
6 Gulf-To-Bay. This one was clear down in Largo. Totally --
7 you know, it was a 25, 30 minute drive to get to it. And
8 you know, that was strange. Why -- why were we using the
9. different one.
10 Q. Did you ever find out why that was?
11 A. No.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. So I -- and I -- and so I questioned the person --
14 Q. Who told you to pick up the prescription?
15 A. I was paged from the MLO Office. I had my beeper.
16 I was not in the office. I had to call the MLO Office. And
17 I said -- I was told to go to this Eckerd's, pick up this.
18 Q. And you saw then that it was a prescription for
19 Lisa McPherson?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Is that the first you realized that Lisa McPherson
22 was staying in the Cabana at the hotel?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. That moment then --
25 A. Yeah.
61
1 Q. -- is the fIrst moment you realized she was there?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Who did you bring the prescription back to?
4 A. Security at Fort Harrison.
5 Q. Which one?
6 A. I was just told to bring it to the Security Office
7 and leave it.
8 Q. Is that the one down there in the parking garage?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Do you remember leaving it with anybody or did you
11 just leave it in the office?
12 A. I gave it to Arthur Baxter, who was the
13 Security Guard that I knew very well.
14 Q. Arthur Baxter, okay.
15 A. He was in that office.
16 Q. Did you ask Arthur Baxter what the deal was there?
17 Did you ask him if Lisa was staying at the hotel?
18 A. I said, I -- I see these are for Lisa. He says,
19 Yeah, we'll get them to her.
20 Q. All right. Who was the next -- did you inquire
21 then?
22 A. I said, How's she doing? He says, You'll have to
23 ask your Senior that.
24 Q. All right. Did you follow up now with your
25 suspicions at least that Lisa was staying at the hotel?
62
1 A. I went to Janice.
2 Q. Again?
3 A. Yeah
4 Q. Is this the first time, second time or third time?
5 A. This is about the second time.
6 Q. So she still hadn't told you that Lisa was staying
7 there?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. And tell me that conversation.
10 A. I asked her how Lisa was doing. I said, I had to
11 pick up some sedatives for Lisa. You know, What's happening
12 with her? I'd like to know so I -- I'm just -- I just need
13 info in case I run into Lovett. And she kept telling me,
14 You don't have to worry about him. Forget that. I'm in
15 charge. And you don't need to know anything. It's none of
16 your concern. Butt out.
17 At which -- I was not willing to butt out. And I
18 got angry, to be very honest. And my voice raises when I
19 get angry. And I -- she and I were in a screaming match.
20 And I told her I didn't think this was right, all I was
21 asking for was information and she wouldn't give me the
22 information that I needed. That I was -- I had been
23 responsible for this person and I didn't like what I was
24 seeing. And I wanted to know, in case anybody asked.
2S Q. What do you mean by that, you didn't like what you
63
1 were seeing?
2 A. The --
3 Q. The fact that you were excluded?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. That's what you're referring to?
6 A. That's what I'm referring.
7 Q. You don't know what's going on?
8 A. I don't know what's happening to Lisa, I never got
9 to see her, so I have no knowledge...
10 Q. Did you have any conversation with Suzanne at this
11 point? I mean, I would think that would be the direction
12 you would head, to your roommate.
13 A. Suzanne wasn't in. Suzanne had not returned to
14 our unit.
15 MS. SINGER: I think she testified at least
16 that 48 hours, maybe that 72 hours, is this correct --
17 THE WITNESS: A Yeah.
18 MS. SINGER: -- that you had not crossed
19 paths?
20 A. Yeah, I haven't crossed paths with my roommate, so
21 I didn't know. But I was hearing that they were, you know,
22 trying to run around and find somebody for a watch, to take
23 over part of the watch and things. And that's what I had
24 said --
25 Q. That's when you realized there was some type of
64
1 cycle going on?
2 A. Yeah, there was a thing. And they were pulling
3 Emma into it, and they were pulling everybody else but me.
4 And I went to her -- I mean, they pulled the dental
5 assistant, they pulled -- they were pulling every kind of
6 person.
7 And I went to Janice and I said, Look, Lisa
8 didn't -- you've got to stop this.
9 Q. You went to who?
10 A. Janice.
11 Q. Janice.
12 A. You've got to stop this, 'cause Lisa was specific
13 when I signed her out, she was specific, she didn't want
14 people she didn't know. She didn't like people who didn't
15 speak English because, you know -- and she says, they're not
16 talking around her.
17 I said, you know, If I was in this situation -- I
18 know when I'm in the hospital or something, I only want
19 people I want around me, people I like. And I said, Lisa's
20 the same way, she only wants people -- you know, why can't
21 you guys do what Lisa asks? Who do I have to talk to? She
22 kept saying, It's out of your hands. You have nothing to
23 say in this. And I said, Well, then if I don't, then you
24 do, you have the right to say. Why can't you make it
25 happen?
65
1 Q. Who's cailing the shots on this thing?
2 A. I have no idea. Usually the ones I've done before
3 was your --
4 Q. What do you mean, "done before"? You've been
5 through watches like this before?
6 A. I've been on parts, yeah.
7 Q. Who was that? When was that?
8 A. So somebody's Type III and you had a watch?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Well, I'd like to hear about that.
11 A. Well, usually it's the Security Chief and the CS.
12 And the only part I would get involved in was to go get
13 names of doctors, take them -- you know, make sure that
14 they've seen a doctor for a physical situation. And
15 helped -- you know, is this something where they could
16 travel.
17 Q. So when was it in this -- in this scenario where
18 she's at the Cabana of the hotel that it finally dawned on
19 you, hey, Lisa's here on an isolation watch because she's
20 Type III? When did that light go off in your head?
21 A. When I picked up the sedatives.
22 Q. Okay. That's when you realized what the deal was?
23 A. Something -- you know, 'cause this is what
24 surprised me, because she didn't have the Type III behavior
25 when I checked her out of the hospital. Two days later --
66
1 and I'm looking -- and like I tried telling Janice, Shoot, I
2 would thow fits if I had people I didn't want around me.
3 You know, let's -- the whole idea is to make it calm, make
4 it less stimulative in the environment. Possibly what you
5 were doing is restimulating her. Let me go in and see
6 what -- maybe I can get some information.
7 She didn't like Janice at all, and Janice was
8 going over there every day.
9 Q. How did you know that?
10 A. Because Lisa had told me one of the reasons she
11 would not come to the MLO Office those other times on a
12 follow-up was Janice was there. She'd only stay with me.
13 And she told me she didn't like her.
14 Q. Just a personality difference?
15 A. Just a personality difference.
16 So I was looking at this, that --
17 Q. How did she get along with Suzanne Green, or
18 Suzanne Schuremberger?
19 A. She tolerated her.
20 Q. But you were her contact?
21 A. Yeah. Suzanne wasn't an MLO, she couldn't do
22 anything. Lisa --
23 Q. Wasn't any MLO yet?
24 A. She was not an MLO, period. Her job was just
25 to -- to keep the things -- the MLO running.
67
1 Q. I might have some bad information.
2 MR. McGARRY: Was she an MLO at one time?
3 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: No.
4 Schuremberger was the Office Manager of the
5 Medical Liaison Office.
6 Q. Okay. I gotcha.
7, A. She was never an MLO.
8 Q. Okay. Just a matter of semantics. Little mix-up
9 there. Okay.
1O A. So if she wanted -- if Lisa wanted to know
11 anything about a medical situation or -- or that, she would
12 come see me. And I would -- if she had a question about
13 a -- a term that Dr. Decuypere or any of the other doctors
14 had used, that she didn't understand, I would get my
15 Taber's Cyclopedia Medical Dictionary out, we would look it
16 up, which is a normal occurrence for a Scientologist.
17 Q. Emma was an MLO, right, then, wasn't she?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. How did she get along with Emma?
20 A. Well, she just didn't go to Emma because she had
21 started with me, and I was the kind of person that she
22 liked. We just had a rapport. And I'd established my
23 beeper -- Emma didn't have a beeper at that time. And I had
24 established with Lisa that if she had any problem, any time
25 of the day or night, my pager was on 24 hours a day, she
68
1 could always beep me and I would answer.
2 Q. Is there a possibility that the process or the
3 cycle they were going through with Lisa McPherson was beyond
4 your spiritual education or experience?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. So that's not the answer to that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Because you'd gone through these before?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. So to this day don't know why you were cut out of
11 the cycle?
12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. All right. Have you ever had a conversation with
14 Alain Kartuzinski about this?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you ever had a conversation with
17 Brian Anderson about this?
18