1
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
IN RE:
INVESTIGATION
STATEMENT OF: JUDY K. GOLDSBERRY-WEBER
DATE: August 19, 1997
TIME: Began: 9:10 a.m.
Ended: 12:20 p.m.
PLACE: Criminal Justice Center
Office of the State Attorney
Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida
REPORTED BY: Ruth M. Martin, CSR, CP, RNR
Registered Merit Reporter
Notary Public
State of Florida at Large
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320
2
APPEARANCES:
MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
Office of the State Attorney
Criminal Justice Complex, Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida 33760
Attorney for State of Florida
BETSY S. SINGER, ESQUIRE
Paul & Singer, P.A.
SunTrust Financial Centre, Suite 3440
401 East Jackson Street
Tampa, Florida 33602
Attorney for the Witness
ALSO PRESENT:
WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
City of Clearwater Police Department
INDEX
EXAMINATION PAGE
BY MR. McGARRY 3
BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS 109
BY MR. McGARRY 145
CERTIFICATE OF OATH 147
3
1 The deponent herein,
2 JUDY K. GOLDSBERRY-WEBER,
3 being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
5 examined and testified as follows:
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. MaGARRY:
8 Q. Please state your name for the record.
9 A. Judy K. Goldsberry-Weber.
10 Q. And your date of birth?
11 A. 5/9/46.
12 Q. Okay. Where do you live?
13 A. I live at 503 Cleveland Street, Clearwater.
14 Q. You're here pursuant to a subpoena, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you're represented by an attorney today?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. McGARRY: Is there anything you'd like to
19 place on the record before we start?
20 MS. SINGER: Just the fact, my understanding
21 is Miss Goldsberry-Weber has been given immunity by the
22 State and she is here to testify honestly and
23 truthfully.
24 MR. McGARRY: Okay. That's pursuant to the
25 subpoena, right.
4
1 Okay. We're going to begin.
2 BY MR. McGARRY:
3 Q. May I call you Judy?
4 A. Sure. No problem with that.
5 Q. How long have you with the Church of Scientology?
6 A. I came down from Oregon in August of `94.
7 Q. Okay. That's not quite the answer to the
8 question, though, is it?
9 Were you a member of the Church in Oregon?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. How long?
12 A. Since December of `93.
13 Q. Okay. And how did you become involved with the
14 Church of Scientology?
15 A. I was going to a chiropractor who was a
16 Scientologist.
17 Q. In Oregon?
18 A. In Oregon, uh-huh.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And he gave me a book to read. And there were
21 some things happening. And so I got in contact with the
22 local Celebrity Center there, which is a branch of the
23 Church, and started taking some courses to help me.
24 Q. Okay. And you did that?
25 A. Yes, uh-huh.
5
1 Q. All right.
2 A. Then as things proceeded, then in the summer of
3 `94 some things in my life had changed, so --
4 Q. For the better, I hope?
5 A. Yes and no. My children -- my son had joined the
6 Navy and was going off to his own duty station, and my
7 daughter was married, and I was in a -- I was a divorced
8 person at that point. So my children didn't really need me
9 anymore, so it was an opportunity to expand my education.
10 And I was told about Florida and I came down to Florida.
11 Q. All right. So were you a member of Staff up there
12 in Oregon before you moved here or is it that when you
13 joined up there and then moved here?
14 A. Well, I was a member of the -- the Florida Staff
15 is a totally different organization. And I was not a member
16 of that part till I got down here.
17 Q. But you were just a parishioner in Oregon or were
18 you more than --
19 A. I was on Staff there, but it's a different -- down
20 here it's called the C Org, which is a higher group. It
21 would be like you're with the State's office --
22 Q. That's because this is Flag, right?
23 A. Right. You can come down to Flag for services,
24 but you don't necessarily have to join Staff.
25 Q. Right.
6
1 A. I chose -- and the Staff from here does not go
2 back to Oregon and Staff.
3 Q. I see.
4 A. It's like the -- each County's District Attorney's
5 office can come to the State office and do some training,
6 but you're not an employee of the State's office, you're an
7 employee of the district office. And that's how it is.
8 Each city or org has their own Staff stay there,
9 and then the higher Staff management that come to Flag are
10 C Org members. From a C Org member you can be sent anywhere
11 in the world. And that's what I joined when I came to Flag
12 and Staff. I could be sent anywhere.
13 Q. Now, in what position did you come to Clearwater
14 as a Staff member?
15 A. I came, after I had my initial training, to the
16 Medical Liaison Office.
17 Q. All right. And you received your initial training
18 here or in Oregon?
19 A. No, I received -- because I came onto the C Org
20 Staff, there's a special training and I only receive it
21 here.
22 Q. All right. This particular division that you went
23 into, the MLO Office --
24 Correct?
25 A. Uh-huh.
7
1 Q. -- who was in charge of that office when you first
2 came here?
A A. The -- when I first came it was a woman named
4 Emma Schamehorn.
5 Q. Okay. She's from Germany, right?
6 A. No, she's from Canada.
7 Q. Canada?
8 A. From British Columbia.
9 Q. And was there -- how many officers are there in
10 that office?
11 A. At that time there was just Emma. And we had a
12 physical therapist or -- she really wasn't -- she was from
13 Austria -- yeah, Austria, and she did physical fitness
14 programs for people. But there was no -- Emma was the only
15 Medical Liaison Officer. And then we had another,
16 Lily Semagie, who was a physician from Venezuela, who came
17 in part-time, but she had left shortly after I got there.
18 And then myself, I came on. I was -- Emma and I held the
19 position for over a year, almost a year and a half before
20 Janice and -- they came on in about May of `95.
21 Q. Laura?
22 A. And Laura. And -- Laura came in like March and
23 Janice came in May or June.
24 Q. Of `95?
25 A. Of `95. So -- and then Suzanne came about June of
8
1 `95.
2 Q. All right. Who was the -- how did they break down
3 the hierarchy within that office? Once those people were
4 added to the MLO Office, who was in charge, who was
5 assisting?
6 A. Okay. Emma became a different -- she handled
7 Public, basically, instead of Staff. When Emma and I were
8 there we just handled whoever came in, it wasn't designated
9 Staff MLO, Public MLO. Then they put Suzanne -- I had
10 originally been holding -- I was assigned the
11 Office Manager, but holding the Medical Liaison Office from
12 above. And then they put Suzanne in as the Office Manager,
13 Janice in as the main -- as Staff MLO, Laura and myself as
14 Deputy MLOs. Laura was for health and hygiene, and I became
15 the Deputy for the Hacienda.
16 And my duties then became -- I would cover for
17 Janice on her days off and when she was studying. And I
18 would cover Emma's, because Janice and Emma sometimes were
19 on study at the same time. So I had to hold both, and maybe
20 Laura might help if she was around.
21 Then my post was, I would take people to doctors'
22 appointments, to hospitals, get reports for them, check on
23 the people who were not on post.
24 Say you -- you were a junior to some -- to her,
25 and she would call and say, My junior didn't show up for
9
1 work this morning. So then it would -- I would be -- I had
2 a pager, and I would be paged, and go check on so and so,
3 they didn't show up to work, see if they're sick or what's
4 happening with then and if they were at the Hacienda. So
5 then I would do that, and then get back.
6 Q. So Janice would be called your Senior --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- at that time?
9 A. At that point, uh-huh.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. Suzanne Schuremberger Green was actually Senior to
12 Janice.
13 Q. Let's talk about some of your previous training
14 experiences that might have led you to get this particular
15 position in the Church in the first place.
16 What background do you have in the medical field?
17 A. In Oregon I had been an LPN for 35 years. I
18 didn't have my license currently. When I came to Florida I
19 didn't and I didn't have it in Oregon, I had let it lapse.
20 But what I had done, I had worked in doctors'
21 offices as the Physician's Assistant, doing different lab
22 procedures, EKGs, scheduling of appointments, you know,
23 A doing that kind of thing. Plus, I had been a respiratory
24 therapist for seven years at the University of Oregon Health
25 Science Center, which is the main teaching hospital in
10
1 Oregon. And so I had done that.
2 And the last five years prior to coming to -- to
3 Florida I had been living in homes, the people had terminal
4 illnesses or -- or were infirmed enough so they could stay
5 in their home and die rather than being put in nursing
6 homes. So I was doing that kind of stuff.
7 So they looked at me and said, Oh, yeah, I want --
8 they had trouble getting people to go into the MLO Office.
9 I said fine, I'm perfectly skilled to handle the body
10 problems and I can -- having worked in doctors' offices, one
11 of the things I had to do was check to see if -- I did the
12 preliminary screening on the patient and then would write it
13 down and the doctor would come in and verify and -- and
14 handle.
15 So I could say -- oh, somebody would come in and
16 complain, I have a sore throat. Without having to diagnose,
17 I could say, Well, yeah, it's red, or yeah, we need to take
18 you to a doctor. Or, you know, sometimes people would say,
19 I don't feel good and they really weren't ill, they just
20 wanted somebody to talk to. And I could say, Well, have you
21 tried, you know -- read a book? Show them a book and they'd
22 say, Oh, yeah, that's how I feel. I'd say okay.
23 Q. So you kind of had to be careful with your
24 services rendered at the Church because you might transcend
25 the boundaries of not having a license to practice --
11
1 A. Exactly.
2 Q. -- as a nurse?
3 A. That's right.
4 If I had any question, what I would do is, I had
5 doctors I would call. I have somebody who has -- is
6 coughing, has a dry, hacky cough. What do you recommend to
7 do? I had doctors that I could call and say, I have
8 somebody here who has, you know, got a headache, their
9 temperature is such and such. And they'd go, well, look in
10 their throat, tell me what their throat looks like. I'd say
11 okay -- usually they were sitting right next to me when I
12 would talk to the doctor.
13 Okay, they got a real red throat. Do you see any.
14 white spots on it? No. What do you want me to do? Now get
15 them down here to my office. So then I'd say, Okay, we're
16 going. Lot of times they'd say, No, Judy, have them gargle
17 with saltwater and do to -- do this and this and this and if
18 they're not better call me back and then we'll see them.
19 So that's what I did. I always called a physician
20 before I did anything.
21 Q. And that was an outside physician, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who would that typically be?
24 A. It would vary depending upon the day or who I
25 could get hold of. It may be --
12
1 Q. Were they Scientology physicians or anybody?
2 A. No, I didn't usually use a Scientology --
3 Q. Ever call Dr. Minkoff for any advice?
4 A. Occasionally. He -- not on a regular basis,
5 A because he worked at Port Richey Hospital in the emergency
6 room and he wasn't always available. It was easier -- and
7 he worked in the emergency room, he didn't handle family
8 practice.
9 Most of the time I used either the health --
10 County Health Department or I used the physicians in the
11 emergency room at Morton Plant Hospital. Or I would call
12 Dr. Alan Finklestein or Dr. Gregory James or the doctors at
13 Suncoast emergency. So I had a list of several that --
14 Q. Morton Plant being the closest?
15 A. Yeah. Yeah, at first I did a lot. And then I
16 had -- the end I did more with Suncoast because I
17 could have better access to them than Morton Plant.
18 Q. Is there anybody, to your knowledge, that was in
19 the MLO OFfice in November of 1995, or currently, that ever
20 had a current license in Florida to either be a nurse or a
21 doctor?
22 A. There was a lady now who's just come into the
23 MLO Office that has a Florida -- she let it lapse when she
24 came into the C Org, but she did have a Florida license for
25 nursing.
13
1 Q. Who's that?
2 A. Sylvia Jaylow.
3 Q. She wasn't there in 1995?
4 A. No, she wasn't. In 1995 we did not have anybody
5 who had any sort of license.
6 Q. To practice nursing or medicine?
7 A. That's right.
8 When I would talk to Dr. Minkoff or -- I also used
9 Dr. Donald Carrow a lot. If I did do anything with them, it
10 was under their instructions. And I had been assured by
11 them that if I followed their instructions, I was covered
12 for anything. So I made sure I followed their instructions
13 to the letter, because I had worked in Oregon ...
14 Q. The dentist, Dr. Houghton, is he considered part
15 of the MLO Office?
16 A. Yes, but he doesn't -- he supposedly -- he
17 doesn't -- when he was put in, he's a dentist and he should
18 only be doing dental cycles.
19 Q. All right. Let's talk about your religious
20 training with the Church. What level have you achieved on
21 the spiritual side of this training board?
22 A. Well, I have had several intenses of auditing
23 of -- I'm really what they consider on the lower level of
24 the -- of the bridge.
25 Q. Okay. But you're not -- you haven't achieved
14
1 Clear?
2 A. No. No, I'm still before --
3 Q. Do you intend to achieve that goal?
4 A. Oh, yeah.
5 Q. Everybody does, right?
6 A. Uh-huh. Yeah, that is one of othe majors -- major
7 things to achieve.
8 Q. Clear?
9 A. Yeah, attain Clear. And what that is, is just
10 things in life do not upset you.
11 Q. Right. I'm kind of familiar with what the concept
12 is.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. In fact, Lisa had just achieved that?
15 A. Yes, uh-huh. Yes, she had made --
16 Q. We'll get to some of that when we start talking
17 about her, because I think you -- you know something about
18 that.
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. All right. Let's go to November. We're going to
21 talk about the events that happened in November of `95
22 specifically when Lisa was in a car accident.
23 Had you ever met Lisa McPherson prior to this day?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Okay. And how was that?
15
1 A. Like I told the other Officers at the first
2 investigation, I had seen her earlier in the summer. She
3 had been sent over by her Auditor because she --
4 Q. Which was who?
5 A. I don't know. I just get -- I just got a piece of
6 paper stating, Please have a talk and see what is happening
7 with Lisa Mcpherson.
8 Q. Okay. Would that have been Mr. Kartuzinski, by
9 any chance? I know he's the Senior guy. in that department,
10 but do you know if she had --
11 A. No. I very rarely would know who the Auditor was.
12 Q. Well, just let me ask you a general question: If
13 she had-- she was obviously getting audited, right? That's
14 how you get to be Clear?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Did she -- that wouldn't be done by the head guy,
17 Kartuzinski, or would it?
18 A. Well, you -- I would get many dispatches, is what
19 we would call, or notes, they could come from the D of P,
20 which is the Director of Processing, somebody -- there could
21 be the Auditor would write to the CS and say I --
22 something's happening here, then the CS, the Case Manager,
23 the person in charge of that case, would send a note, send
24 her to the MLO.
25 Q. All right.
16
1 A. All we would get is a note, scribbled on maybe
2 this little piece of paper, stating interview this person,
3 see what's happening and send a report. Now, my report
4 would go back to the CS, is addressed to the CS.
5 Q. In the summer of `95 this occurred to you, right?
6 A. Of course.
7 Q. And you got a note from --
8 A. I just got a note just to interview her and see
9 what's happening with her.
10 Q. All right. Did you save that? Is that a document
11 somewhere that you can retrieve?
12 A. No. That -- that -- that note -- it would go
13 back -- if it had asked specific questions, sometimes they
14 were saved, sometimes they were not saved, depending upon
15 what -- but we would write a report that would go back to
16 the CS addressing those questions that were asked.
17 Q. Did you do that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And who did that report go back to?
20 A. It's -- all it's sent to is CS.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. It's stapled shut and sent back ...
23 Q. Ultimately, do you have knowledge of where that
24 document would ultimately end up?
25 A. Should be in the person's PC folder.
17
1 Q. That would be Lisa Mcpherson's PC folder?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. Okay. What did you say in that return document,
4 if you can recall?
5 A. I -- all I know was, I addressed where she was
6 from to find out if she was a local here, what she was
7 having trouble with.
8 Q. What trouble was that?
9 A. She was -- she didn't have much of an appetite and
10 she was having difficulty sleeping. So lot of times we find
11 out they're from a northern climate --
12 Q. Well, specifically what did she --
13 A. Well, those were --
14 Q. What happened with her?
15 A. This is what I'm saying.
16 Q. Oh, she was from a northern climate?
17 A. Yeah. Because I found she was not a native of
18 Clearwater.
19 Q. Right.
20 A. So the next thing we always ask is, How much
21 liquid are you drinking? You know, How long have you been
22 in Clearwater? Because coming from the West Coast to the
23 East Coast you have a time travel difference, you have a
24 little bit of jet lag, you're not going to go to sleep here
25 at the same time as you're used to on the West Coast. So we
18
1 try to find out what has changed in their environment that
2 might be contributing to their lack of sleep or lack of
3 eating.
4 A lot of people, when they get here where it's
5 hot, they automatically don't want to eat. You know, you
6 don't want to eat a big, heavy breakfast when, you know,
7 it's 90 degrees out. So -- so what we do is just find out
8 and -- so that's what I would do.
9 Q. All right. Well, rather than speak of what you
10 would do and what you would do with a lot of people, my
11 questions are kind of directed to what you did with Lisa.
12 A. Well, it's a standard thing. This is what I did
13 with Lisa.
14 Q. Well, I'm asking what you did with Lisa.
15 A. So what I did with Lisa is, I found out where she
16 was from, found out how much liquid she was drinking.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. Found out what vitamins she was taking. And asked
19 her if, you know, there was anything -- if she was having
20 trouble, how she was getting along with her Auditor, if
21 there was any -- anything that would be helpful to the CS
22 for her.
23 Q. All right. And in her responses to those areas.
24 that you just talked about, did you find out any troubling
25 areas?
19
1 A. Yeah, I found some areas.
2 I found she wasn't drinking very much water. She
3 was drinking like a quart of water or so. And I -- so
4 then -- there was some other things.
5 She didn't feel like she wanted to feel, so I gave
6 her a list of three doctors. Because I don't call and
7 make -- okay, you're going to doctor so and so at such and
8 such a time. I have a phone in the office that I was using.
9 So I gave her a list of three doctors, and it's their choice
10 as to which doctor they go to. I usually give a couple
11 chiropractors and a medical doctor. Or someone will say I
12 don't want any medical doctors, I only want chiropractors.
13 So then I -- I had a Rolodex, and I would just go through
14 and give them a list of the doctors, their addresses and the
15 phone numbers.
16 Sometimes -- now, Lisa decided -- at that point
17 she didn't make the appointment, 'cause I offer them the
18 phone right there. She decided at that point she would make
19 her own call from her room, she wanted to go back to her
20 room.
21 MS. SINGER: If I could just interrupt for a
22 minute. I think what he's asking is if you have any
23 recollection when Lisa came to visit you back then of
24 the specific things you might have put in the report.
25 THE WITNESS: Well, that -- this is what I'm
20
1 doing.
2 MS. SINGER: Okay.
3 A. What I do is I list out -- I asked her these
4 questions, because that's what the CS is wanting to know,
5 and who I -- and then said, Referred to doctor. And then I
6 make the notation, Lisa will make appointment and I will
7 send you a report as soon as Lisa gets back to me.
8 So then --
9 Q. Had she graduated at this point?
10 A. No.
11 Q. When was that, do you remember?
12 A. That was -- couple of weeks before her accident
13 was when she graduated to Clear.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. So this is way back. This is the beginning.
16 Q. So she's still finishing up the auditing to obtain
17 that graduation?
18 A. Yeah. This is where -- probably the start of the
19 auditing, because they can't do any auditing if they can't
20 reach a metabolism. And they usually have a problem, this
21 is when they come -- are sent to us because they can't get
22 them in to do an auditing session because of this problem.
23 Q. Is this graduation a pretty big deal? Is that
24 celebrated? Is that a process?
25 A. Oh, yeah, very big.
21
1 Q. What is it you get to do when you graduate to
2 Clear?
3 A. On Friday night, at the whole base everything
4 stops and we all go to graduation. So anybody who has
5 finished a -- a major action is acknowledged. They get up
6 on the stage, they're given a certificate. Now, for Clear,
7 they get a big framed -- and it's all framed in a beautiful
8 frame, and flowers, and they have their pictures taken, and
9 it's -- it's a very large thing.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. So 300 to -- you know, you got 500 to -- to 1000
12 people, depending upon what's happening there,
13 acknowledging.
14 Q. Back in the summer of '95, did Lisa ever give you
15 any indication that she was having trouble at -- at work or
16 where she was living?
17 A. She had made one comment; you know, after this
18 episode where I sent her to the doctor. She would come in a
19 couple of times and I'd check, see how she's doing.
20 Towards the end there she was saying that she was
21 having a little problem, she was going to have to go back
22 and clean something up at her -- she wanted to stay for some
23 additional services. And she was going to have to go back
24 to her residence and -- and her place of business and -- and
25 do something. As far as the specifics of what she was
22
1 having trouble with, no, she never discussed that with me.
2 All she said was that she had to go back and -- and get it
3 cleared for her to stay some -- some longer time.
4 Q. Longer time? Stay where?
5 A. Stay here.
6 Q. Working at the Church?
7 A. No. No, she wasn't working.
8 Q. Where?
9 A. She was never a member, but stay here to do some
10 additional services, some additional auditing or something.
11 Q. But she had to clear something up with work?
12 A. With work to stay here longer.
13 Q. Do you know where she worked?
14 A. No, I never ...
15 Q. But she was having a problem at work, in which she
16 was going to have to work out something there?
17 A. Yeah, to stay.
18 Q. To do more auditing to get to Clear?
19 A. Well, I didn't know what services she was on.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. So what I mean, what I'm saying, she just let me
22 know that she would be like -- she had planned for X number
23 of weeks, it was going to take some extra time, so she had
24 to go back and make sure her job was covered and -- and that
25 she could stay.
23
1 Q. How about her living arrangements, did she ever
2 experience any problems with that as far as you know?
3 A. I -- she never said. Only time I knew anything
4 was, she was going to have to extend her time.
5 Q. Okay. The only reason why I brought those up, you
6 specifically told Detective Sudler those two items were a
7 point of contention with her.
8 A. Well, she had just said, I mean in those two
9 things, that there were -- she didn't tell me specifics, she
10 just said that those were two things she had to work out,
11 was her living arrangements for -- due to that extension and
12 the extension of time at work. She had to make sure her
13 position was covered. And that she didn't seem to think it
14 was a major problem. I mean, it didn't -- otherwise it
15 would have stuck with me. It was just not -- because I
16 mean, it's just -- to me it was a normal situation that if
17 you normally were going to take a four week vacation and all
18 of a sudden you were going to need eight weeks --
19 Q. So you saw her further in the summer, on through
20 I the summer as she was progressing through this trouble,
21 troublesome period?
22 A. Yeah, couple -- yeah, three or four times.
23 Q. Okay. And she came to see you personally?
24 A. Yes. She had -- she was given the option to see
25 one of the other MLOs, and she elected -- she says, I've
24
1 started with you, I want to stay with you. And then -- so
2 that's -- and we do that.
3 Q. Did you work -- did you feel you worked her
4 through that troublesome period?
5 A. Oh, yes.
6 Q. You did?
7 A. Yes. She came back, she said, oh -- she was
8 happy --
9 Q. What do you attribute that success in that
10 particular moment of her life to?
11 A. Well, she had solved the problem with her sleeping
12 with the doctor she had seen, and she had worked out with
13 her Auditor whatever troubles, which is their areas to do.
14 And I was just happy that I was able -- she had come to me
15 there towards the end and had thanked me for getting her in
16 touch with ...
17 Q. Were you aware of her obtaining any medication in
18 order to relieve any of the symptoms or problems that she
19 was experiencing in the summer of '95?
20 A. I didn't know of any. I
21 Q. Okay. She didn't tell you that?
22 A. She never told me any medications.
23 Q. Did you ever talk to any doctors that prescribed
24 anything for her?
25 A. No.
25
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. The only report I got was from Dr. Decuypere, that
3 she felt she had handled the problem with sleep and ...
4 Q. Did Dr. Decuypere play a role in this summer of
5 '95 period in Lisa's life?
6 A. Yeah. Dr. Decuypere is the doctor that -- she was
7 one of the names that I had listed, given Lisa to see.
8 Q. What kind of doctor is she?
9 A. She's a chiropractor and a nutritionist.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. She's very skilled in nutrition. And --
12 Q. So you got some reports from Decuypere?
13 A. No, I just got the one, that she had written a
14 program, I don't know what the program was, I was not
15 privileged to that, except that I -- I had to give a report
16 to the CS that this -- the eating and sleep had been
17 handled. I got a report from Dr. Decuypere that she had
18 written a program and that Lisa seemed to be responding to
19 it, and she didn't see, you know, any further problems.
20 Lisa was able to metab and so there was no problems with her
21 auditing.
22 Q. What does that mean, metab?
23 A. She could -- her body was utilizing its food so
24 that it was able to use it right.
25 Q. Okay.
26
1 A. So that's a thing that -- a measurement they use
2 in auditing to see if -- to do it. So if you can't metab,
3 you can't get your, auditing sessions. So you need to metab.
4 That's a requirement.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. So I made sure-- I wrote the CS.
7 Then I didn't see -- occasionally Lisa -- I saw
8 her a couple other times, once walking on the street. She
9 was happy, elated, and ...
10 Q. All right. Any other personal contact with Lisa
11 in between that period of time and the accident she had?
12 A. Well, she came to see me after she had tested to
13 Clear and asked me to be at the graduation.
14 Q. All right. When was that?
15 A. Well, that would have been Thursday before the
16 Friday graduation. It was like a couple weeks before she
17 had the accident.
18 Q. All right.
19 A. And she had specifically come into the MLO
20 Office --
21 Q. Right.
22 A. -- and asked me, she was very excited and happy,
23 wanted me there at her graduation. And which I told her I
24 would -- you know, I'd be glad to be there.
25 Q. Right.
27
1 A. So I hadn't seen her so happy. I mean, it's -- it
2 was -- she was just walking on air, so to speak. I mean,
3 she was very bubbly and happy and laughing and joking and
4 just as if not a care in the world. And it was very, very
5 nice to see somebody that way. So I told her I would be,
6 and I made sure I was there on Friday night.
7 Q. All right. Let's go to the day of the accident.
8 When did you find out about that and who told you?
9 A. I was paged by Security. I got -- my pager went
10 off with a 911 and a number to answer. So I called that
11 number and happened to be Security.
12 Q. Do you remember who the Security Guard was?
13 A. No, I didn't recognize the voice.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. We'd had a bunch of new ones come on that post.
16 And he said they were sending a car for me to go
17 to Morton Plant Hospital, somebody had been in an accident.
18 Which I said -- I was thinking, because it was not a voice I
19 recognized, that maybe they had the wrong -- wrong pager.
20 And I said, Well, is this a Public or a Staff? And he
21 says -- I said, if it's a Public -- 'cause I was in the
22 middle of an important cycle I needed to finish. I didn't
23 want to just run off and leave. And so I was trying to
24 clarify
25 Q. You were in a teaching cycle or what kind --
28
1 A. I was looking -- somebody had come in that needed
2 to be -- a Public, and you just don't walk out.
3 Q. I understand.
4 A. And so I said, you know, How about sending Emma or
5 one of the others? They said no, I was specifically told --
6 Q. You were handling Public then though, right?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. So you got the impression, I take it, that was an
9 important --
10 A. So he said no, I have orders to get you there
11 right away.
12 Q. Did he say who the orders came from?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did a car come and get you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who was driving the car?
17 A. One of the Security Guards.
18 Q. All right. Where did they take you?
19 A. They took me to Morton Plant Hospital.
20 Q. When you arrived at Morton Plant Hospital, do you
21 remember who else was there from the Church at that time?
22 A. At that time?
23 Q. When you first got there.
24 A. When I first got there, there was two people I
25 didn't know, there was --
29
1 Q. Were they members of the Church?
2 A. No, they were people -- I found out later who they
3 were.
4 Q. Who they were?
5 A. They were some friends of Lisa's.
6 Q. Do you remember who they were?
7 A. No. Just a husband and wife. I was never given
8 their names.
9 Q. All right.
10 A. There was --
11 MR. McGARRY: Excuse me. Do you know who
12 those people were?
13 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Yeah, I think
14 so. I think it's co-workers.
15 THE WITNESS: No, there were additional
16 co-workers, but these two people were friends of
17 Lisa's.
18 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Okay.
19 Q. All right. Go ahead.
20 A. But I had Humberto Fontana, who was from the
21 Office of Special Affairs.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. Alain Kartuzinski was there. And Emma Schamehorn
24 was there.
25 Q. All right. So what did you do when you arrived at
30
1 the hospital?
2 A. And there were a couple other people moving
3 around.
4 Well, I -- I went over to -- Mr. Fontana came
5 towards me and told me that there was a -- one of our
6 parishioners had been involved in a car accident and could I
7 find out how they were and -- and get them out.
8 So I tried to talk to Emma to see what Emma -- if
9 Emma knew, and Emma just waved me off. So I thought, well,
10 okay, I'll just go on and find out.
11 So I went to the Admitting person, who was
12 somebody I knew, and laughingly asked -- I said, Well, I
13 understand I've got a parishioner here from -- somebody from
14 the Church of Scientology. She said yes, you do. And I
15 said, Is she in trauma or fast track or intermediate? And
16 so I knew which door to go through. And she says, Oh, she's
17 over in fast track by intermediate. And I says, Okay.
18 Well, that told me -- that gave me some
19 information right there. The trauma wing means that there's
20 something really severely wrong; the other areas, it's
21 something minor.
22 So I went through the door and I said, Is she back
23 in -- in 2 or 4? Because of the intermediate, knowing which
24 of those two rooms, they use it for different things. I
25 says, She's over in 2? And they said, yeah, how did you
31
1 know? I said, Well, I'm getting used to being around here.
2 So sure enough she was in 2. So she says, oh, go
3 on back and see her. So I hit the door and the -- they have
4 a button so it opens the door and I went on back. And as I
5 was going back to that area, I saw one of the nurses from
6 the emergency room. And I asked her, I said, who's taking
7 care of -- I understand I have somebody from the Church over
8 here in 2. She says, Oh, yeah, Judy, yeah, she's there.
9 Oh, go ahead and go on in. I says, Well, she's not badly
10 hurt or what's going on? She says, No, we've taken her
11 and -- and I said, What have you done?
12 And -- and so I kind of knew what procedures had
13 been done prior to my coming and what would be happening,
14 which would give me a time frame of what -- what's going on
15 and the picture of what's happening, so I would know to tell
16 the others that are sitting out there not knowing what's
17 happening at all.
18 Q. All right. Did you go ahead and see Lisa?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you talk to her?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What was the conversation about?
23 A. I went in and I -- the first -- I said hello, and
24 I didn't identify myself, for two reasons. One, so that I
25 could see the reaction that Lisa had to me.
32
1 Q. I Right.
2 A. Two, I didn't want to be putting words in her
3 mouth. I wanted to see her reaction and how she was doing.
4 So I -- by saying hello, that opened up the thing. She
5 said, Oh, hi, Judy. She instantly recognized me.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. So I -- we just -- you know, I says, oh -- we kept
8 it very light. I didn't ask her about the accident at
9 first. Because with my nursing background, I wanted to
10 check out to see -- compare what the doctor is saying, I
11 wanted to see how her reactions were, check to see if I
12 could see anything physically, any bumps or bruises or red
13 marks or -- or anything, to see what's happening with her,
14 information that I could ask the doctor about. Well, have
15 you checked such and such? And see what was happening, how
16 her reaction was. By letting her talk, with my nursing
17 background, I would see if it was a neurological thing.
18 Q. What did she say?
19 A. Well, she -- her words were -- she recognized me.
20 She acknowledged who I was. And she kept -- you know, she
21 says -- so I said -- you know, acknowledged, Oh, hi. And
22 she goes, you know, I want to get out of here. I go, Okay.
23 Why? Well, she says, I hate all this noise and I hate, you
24 know, this confusion around here. It's, you know,
25 bothersome. I want to be where it's quiet. I just don't
33
1 like what's happening. I said, Well, have you talked to the
2 doctor about it? Yeah, but they keep sending me characters
3 in here and they wanted -- they're poking me and prodding
4 me. I said, okay, tell me about what happened. So then she
5 told me, you know, she -- you know, the accident.
6 Q. Did she tell you why she took her clothes off and
7 walked down the street naked? I
8 A. No. She did a foolish thing. She said, I was
9 running down the street without clothes.
10 Q. She didn't say why she did that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ask her?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you not think that was important, to ask her
15 that?
16 A. It was not -- at that point I didn't -- I was just
17 getting information and it was --
18 Q. That's what I'm asking you though. That would be
19 information that I would think would be relatively crucial
20 to a decision on whether or not she needed further
21 evaluation.
22 A. She just said she -- she didn't feel good. You
23 know, it was just an accident. I've been involved with
24 other people and sometimes you do crazy things that you
25 later regret. And I wanted to see whether -- you know, if
34
1 there was any neurological damage or any real reason for
2 this. And it wasn't my place that --
3 Q. But you didn't specifically ask her why she did
4 that?
5 A. No, because it -- you know, I --
6 Q. Did anybody ask her that that was in your
7 presence?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. What was your course of action at that
10 point?
11 A. What I did was, I went back out -- she asked me
12 again, I want to get out of here. I says, That's -- that's
13 what you want to do? Let me check to see what the
14 doctors -- see what they've done and see what -- what their
15 recommendations are.
16 Q. Who was the attending physician at that time?
17 A. Dr. Lovett.
18 Q. Did you speak with Dr. Lovett?
19 A. Oh, yes, I did.
20 Q. And what was his position on her?
21 A. He -- when I went to him, he did not want to
22 release her. He wanted her put in a psychiatric observation.
23 unit.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. And so I said -- so I said -- I asked him, I said,
35
1 Well, tell me, did she have a -- why are you wanting to do
2 that? Are you finding anything in your tests that show her
3 to be harmful to herself or what -- you know, what are your
4 indicators to do this? Have you had a psych evaluator look
5 at her?
6 Q. And in fact there was somebody there?
7 A. Yes. Yes, he -- the psych --
8 Q. Who was that?
9 A. I don't remember his name right off.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. But I remember who he was.
12 Q. Did you talk to him?
13 A. Yes, I did, because --
14 MR. McGARRY: What's his name?
15 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Joe Price.
16 A. Yeah, uh-huh.
17 Q. You talked to Joe Price?
18 A. Yeah. He was sitting there. I turned to him,
19 because Dr. Lovett and I were standing, and Dr. Lovett
20 pointed to him, says, Well, I had him do it. so I looked --
21 I asked Mr. Price, asked -- he said, Well, I'm a nurse
22 evaluator --. I said, Are you a psychiatrist or psychologist?
23 No, I'm a nurse, you know, I have my degree. So I said,
24 Fine. What are your criteria to put her in a psych
25 evaluation -- what is your evaluation of her? He says she
36
1 didn't meet the evaluation to hold her in a psychiatric
2 unit.
3 Q. That would be by Baker Act criteria, is that what
4 you're referring to?
5 A. I -- yeah.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. So I said, I don't know what -- you know, I says,
8 I don't know -- when I asked him what's the criteria, I
9 says, I don't know which one you're using here, but, I said,
10 does she meet the criteria that you use in this hospital for
11 admission to a psychiatric unit? At which point he said no.
12 Q. Okay. What was Lovett's position on that?
13 A. Lovett was totally -- I had never seen this man
14 so--
15 Q. You've met him before?
16 A. Oh, yes. I'd worked with him on several other
17 people.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And he was so agitated and angry. And it was like
20 he and this psych evaluator had been having arguments,
21 because I found out later from the nurse, the nurses that I
22 knew, that they had been literally screaming at each other,
23 I because Lovett had wanted her put in the psychiatric --
24 Lovett is not an employee of the hospital, he is a
25 subcontractor, so he cannot admit her, he has to have a
37
1 doctor on staff admit her. She didn't meet the criteria,
2 but yet he wanted -- was demanding them to do it.
3 So I was trying to defuse the situation and said
4 to Lovett, well, does she have anything physically wrong
5 with her that, to make you ease, that we could put her in
6 for 24-hour observation in a regular hospital room and then,
7 if something comes up, they -- we can have her evaluated?
8 Well, No, was his answer. I says, Does she have a
9 concussion? Does she have any head injury? Does she have
10 any possible internal injuries that would -- and all he was
11 ranting and raving, and I mean it was a real rant and rave,
12 you know, her history, she could possibly kill herself, her
13 brother and her father committed suicide, she's a potential
14 suicide. And I go --
15 Q. Did you know that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You didn't know that beforehand?
18 A. No. That's -- that isn't something that I would
19 have had privilege.
20 But I kept saying, Okay, wait a minute. If you're
21 saying this and this psych evaluator -- does he know this
22 history? Well, Yeah, he knew it. And I looked at Mr. Price
23 and I said, like I'm talking to you, and I said, Do you
24 think -- you're the expert in this, does she fit what you
25 would think is a potential suicide? Well, he says, no.
38
1 Q. What was your position in this?
2 A. My position was to see if there was any physical
3 situation that would cause a problem for her down the road
4 or how to keep her from being put in the psych unit, if it
S was needed, to agree to put her in an observation room, if
6 that was what needed to be.
7 Q. Would you describe yourself as the point person in
8 this whole thing for the Church?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. You were the one doing all the --
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. -- negotiating with the doctors?
13 A. Yeah, I was.
14 Q All right.
15 A. Because I had established a rapport with them, had
16 established that I took good care of them. Mr. Fontana had
17 tried and was -- he had met a lot of resistance, because he
18 had come -- I don't know what he had done prior to my
19 getting there; but it had caused some animosities, and I was
20 in there to try to soothe feathers and see what -- what I
21 could do for the best of Lisa and what she wanted, if it was
22 physically possible.
23 Now, what I had been told was, if she had a
24 physical situation that needed her to be kept in an -- in
25 the hospital for observation, then they wanted her to do
39
1 that.
2 Q. Who told you that?
3 A. Mr. Fontana and Mr. Kartuzinski.
4 Because I had gone back out to -- to them and
5 said, Look, I talked with Lisa, she recognized me, we're
6 trying to do the paperwork, I'm meeting with the doctors to
7 see what happened. You know, What do you guys want done?
8 And they -- that's what they told me, Yeah, keep -- if you
9 can put her in the regular hospital room where one of us can
10 stay with her and they'll agree to it, go ahead and have her
11 moved there, just don't have her put in the psych.
12 Q. Why is that?
13 A. Because the Church doesn't like psych problems.
14 Because of the drugs, they create problems.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. We have no problems with medical treatment.
17 Q. But you do have problems with psychotherapy?
18 A. Yeah. Yeah.
19 So what we wanted was to see if -- what --
20 Q. Was your position that same way?
21 A. Mine?
22 Q. Yeah.
23 A. I follow the Church rulings.
24 Q. Well, the answer is yes?
25 A. Uh-huh.
40
1 Q. Okay. All right.
2 A. But I -- you know, if -- so what I did was, I went
3 back in to the doctors, to Dr. Lovett and to Mr. Price, and
4 Mr. Price kept saying, I'm writing up a report, she's not --
5 'cause Dr. Lovett was still browbeating him, just screaming
6 at him, he wanted her in there. And they were having a
7 real -- and I -- I mean, it was almost comical to me. And I
S didn't dare laugh, but it was -- I had never seen this man
9 be so childish about a situation.
10 So I went to them and said, Okay, you know, what
11 I tests have you run? Have you done -- you know, what -- what
12 are her symptoms? He told me. I said, Have you done the
13 chest -- you know, the x-rays? Yeah. Have you drawn the
14 blood? Yeah. Have you found anything? No.
15 I said, Okay, what if she -- she wants to leave.
16 Is there any reason -- I didn't have access to the chart to
17 know what tests or what -- what -- what they did or what,
18 except that there's a board in the emergency room with a
19 person's name and the bed number they're in and what I
20 tests -- they put a little dot, a magnetic marker, red
21 meaning it hasn't been done, green meaning it's been done,
22 and then it's a progress board as to what tests and
23 everything.
24 Well, I took a look and saw what -- what they had
25 done. And so I knew where -- where they were going. So I
41
1 knew in the time frame, because I know it takes an hour for
2 them to get the blood results, takes 20 -- depending upon
3 what x-ray series they've -- they do, how long it takes them
4 to have it developed and a preliminary reading.
5 Q. Who's the person that has to sign her out of that
6 hospital?
7 A. Lovett is the doctor who has to make the
8 recommendation, because he was the -- the main. However,
9 since she was -- he would not sign her out, even though he
10 could tell me there was no reason to admit her, he would not
11 sign her -- do a normal sign-out.
12 Q. How did she get out?
13 A. He was requesting -- he was making her sign
14 herself out, a waiver, that she was leaving the hospital
15 against medical advice. That was the only way he would let
16 her out.
17 And he also turned to me and -- you know, just to
18 even get him to start that, I turned to him and I said, Are
19 you telling me there's no physical reason for her to stay,
20 but you're still wanting her under observation, yet you've
21 worked with me on many other people, how about if I take
22 responsibility to stay with her, take care of her, are you
23 willing to let her go? At that point he backed off and kind
24 of said, Well, I guess. I said, You've worked with me,
25 we've done for many people.
42
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. Have I ever problem -- have I ever had a problem?
3 Q. You did that, right?
4 A. If there was something that did come up, didn't I
5 you? So he had to say so, Yeah, you've always done
6 that. So I said, Fine. Are you willing to let her come if
7 I take care of her? At that point he said -- he conceded.
8 And Mr. Price sat there and said, Hey that's the best idea.
9 Q. Was there a document filled out to --
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. -- memorialize that?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. So the nurse -- so I said, Okay, you start the
15 paperwork. He says, Well, I have to have the nurses get it
16 and I'll have to get it.
17 Q. Did Lisa sign it?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Okay. Is that the document right there?
20 A. I --
21 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: This is a copy.
22 A. Yeah. Yeah. And you see, Lisa and I signed it.
23 Because that was the only way Dr. Decuypere -- that was the
24 only way Dr. Lovett would let me take her, is I would be
25 responsible, because Dr. Decuypere was not a member of the
43
1 Church as on Staff. I was the person responsible.
2 Q. So you --
3 A. And he turned --
4 Q. -- told them you would be responsible and you
5 signed this document saying that --
6 A. Yes.
A Q. -- you would be?
8 A. Yes.
9 And he point blank pointed his finger at me, I'll
10 never -- he'd never done this before, and he's never done it
11 since, and it was why -- it just really kind of got to me,
12 because he pointed his finger and he just shook it at me and
13 just was vehement in his manner, I'm holding you personally
14 responsible and if anything happens, I'm gonna nail you.
lS And I thought, he never -- I mean, the tone of voice, his
16 demeanor had never, ever been that way to me.
17 Q. Well, she is dead now.
18 A. I understand that.
19 Q. Okay. So who transported Lisa from the hospital?
20 A. Well, as I -- the chain of events was, I went back
21 out and told them, Mr. Kartuzinski and Mr. Fontana, that we
22 were arranging that, and that she was going to be released
23 in my -- my care. And I said -- well, I didn't have my
24 vehicle. I said, I don't know what's going on. They --
25 they told me, You just go with -- get her signed out and
44
1 we'll talk to you when you came out.
2 Q. How was Lisa dressed when you saw her?
3 A. The first time she was in the hospital gown.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. And then when she was told she could leave, she
6 had a -- one of these long T-shirts on.
7 Q. Where did she get that?
8 A. I don't know. I found out later, at the time I
9 did not know who had brought it in.
10 Q. Okay. Do you know now? .
11 A. I do know now that her friends had brought it.
12 When they found out she had been taken to the hospital,
13 they --
14 Q. You don't know what happened to her car or
15 anything?
16 A. No, I didn't -- no.
17 Q. You don't know what happened to the clothes she
18 was wearing when she was in the car?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Personal effects, anything like that?
21 A. No. All I got told later was, as I was signing
22 her out I said, I'm taking her, and they said that the
23 friends would take -- Mr. Fontana, these friends will take
24 care of anything that's needed.
25 Q. Okay. Whose car did she get in?
45
1 A. I walked her out -- I walked her from her room in
2 the ER out to the -- through the doors. She got into
3 Mr. Kartuzinski's car.
4 Q. Was he in the car with her?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Okay. So just the two of them?
7 A. I don't know, because Mr. Fontana took me as we
8 left, I don't know who was in Mr. Kartuzinski's.
9 Q. You didn't go back with the Security Guard, you
10 went back with Mr. Fontana?
11 A. Yeah, Mr. Fontana. Security guard just dropped me
12 off and went back to the base.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. As I left Lisa, I told her I'd have to go get my
15 things -- I was in a uniform. I didn't have a nightgown or
16 anything. I said, I'll have to go get things to spend the
17 night and I'll see you later.
18 Q. I'm not following. Who do you say that to?
19 A. Lisa.
20 Q. You said you had to go back --
21 A. I had to go back to my place to get my stuff. As
22 we were walking out Lisa was saying, Judy, I want you to be
23 there with me. And I said, Yeah, I signed -- and I was
24 telling Mr. Kartuzinski and Mr. Fontana, I've signed to be
2S the responsible person.
46
1 Q. So you told her you're, going to go back and get
2 your effects?
3 A. I would have to go get my effects.
4 Q. And meet her downtown?
5 A. And meet her at her place.
6 Q. Whose place?
7 A. At her place.
8 Q. Lisa's place?
9 A. Lisa's place. Because I didn't know exactly where
10 she was living.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Mr. Kartuzinski was gonna take her, and so I would
13 be told -- they would take me to where Lisa was.
14 Q. Did you do that?
15 A. No. As I got out to the Hacienda, Mr. Fontana
16 told me, he says, Judy, you've been up all day, you were up
17 half the night, we'll have Suzanne Green, or Schuremberger
18 at that point, we'll have her stay with Lisa tonight, 'cause
19 she knows her.
20 And that was another thing. Lisa had wanted --
21 she says, I only want somebody I know, and I conveyed that,
22 to be around her. Because one of the things --
23 Q. We'll skip to the conversation about, did you
24 entertain a conversation with Lisa that said, we're going to
25 take you and we're not going to take you home, we're going
47
1 to take you to the Church?
2 A. I did not ever know anything about that.
3 Q. So you're --
4 A. I did not have that conversation.
5 Q. Your assumption when you left there, she was going
6 home, somebody was going home with her, and that's where she
7 was going?
8 A. Not her home.
9 Q. I mean her house.
10 A. Her house.
11 Q. Where she was living?
12 A. Wherever she was living.
13 Q. Her regular place?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So you didn't know anything about her going to the
16 hotel?
17 A. No. All I was told was -- was to take her -- the
18 agreement with Dr. Lovett and Mr. Price was that we would
19 get her to wherever she was going, and I assumed it was her
20 room, it was going to be a place where it was quiet, and
21 that nothing would be there that she would harm herself.
22 Q. And you were going to take care of her?
23 A. And I was going to take care of her, because
24 Lovett had put that responsibility on me and Lisa had asked
25 me to be there, so --
48
1 Q. All right. Fontana told you that wasn't going to
2 happen?
3 A. Not that night. He says, But you need to stay on
4 top of all of this and keep me informed of what's happening.
5 And since you've been made responsible, you need to stay on
6 top of what's happening.
7 So the next -- so beings that he was Senior to me,
8 I says okay. So I went and woke Suzanne up, because she
9 lived in the same room as I did. And she had a long
10 A discussion with him.
11 Q. 503 Cleveland?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Okay. I
14 A. And so she --
15 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Can we stop a
16 minute. 503 Cleveland is not a residence.
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: You're really
19 living where?
20 THE WITNESS: 551 North Saturn.
21 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: 503 is just a
22 drop, a mail drop on Cleveland Street.
23 MR. McGARRY: All right.
24 THE WITNESS: It's also where our training
25 is, our main training.
49
1 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Wanted to clear
2 the record. It sounds like you were living there.
3 THE WITNESS: Oh. That's the -- the address
4 we use for everything, 'cause there's no mail delivery
5 out at Saturn.
6 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Okay.
7 A. So -- so Suzanne came in, she went out and talked
8 with Mr. Fontana, they were gone quite a while. She came
9 back in, storming, and she picked up some clothes and left.
10 Q. What do you mean, storming? She wasn't happy with
11 the assignment?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Whatever it was --
1S Q. Do you know why she wasn't happy with the
16 assignment?
17 A. No. No.
18 Q. What level of spiritual, if you know, auditing has
19 she achieved?
20 A. Suzanne?
21 Q. Yeah.
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Is she Clear or not Clear?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. You don't know if she's Clear or not?
50
1 A. I don't know that.
2 Q. She was your roommate, right?
3 A. Yeah. She didn't have the Clear bracelet on, so I
4 don't think she was.
5 Q. All right. So she left to go handle this task --
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. -- in your stead?
8 A. In my place.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. And I had again offered to, you know, grab stuff
11 and go, but I was told no.
12 So I went onto post the next morning. And I had
13 some cycles I had to do and so I went and did those, and
14 when I came back into the office, you know, I had asked what
15 was happening, you know, where Janice was, 'cause I got a
16 page in and so forth, and I was told that she -- there was
17 I an important cycle she was on, I wasn't told what the cycle
18 was.
19 Q. Who was on?
20 A. That Janice was on.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. And so it was a couple of days before I connected
23 with Janice. And I asked her what -- how Lisa was doing or
24 what was going on and if she needed me. I knew they were
25 having trouble, they were having trouble finding people to
51
1 do the watch. Which, by a watch, we mean have somebody with
2 her.
3 Q. Right. Well, we're skipping over some areas that
4 I need to cover here.
5 You're saying you, from the time that you got home
6 that night, Fontana drops you off, he says you're not going
7 to follow up what you said you were going to follow up on,
8 that your roommate's going to do that instead of you, that's
9 in the evening, right, 'cause now --
10 A. No, this is like three o'clock in the morning.
11 Q. Three o'clock, okay.
12 So you guys have been in the hospital all night?
13 A. I've been in the hospital all night.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. So it's like three o'clock in the morning. He's
16 looking like, I had been up already for 24 hours.
17 Q. So he employs your roommate, Suzanne, to handle
18 that?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Now, do you know what she did?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Is she still your roommate?
23 A. No.
24 Q. How long was she your roommate after -- after that
25 day?
52
1 A. Gosh, till she married Clay.
2 Q. Well, I mean, sometime after that --
3 A. Oh, yeah.
4 Q. -- you got together?
5 A. Oh, yeah.
6 Q. You didn't have a conversation with her and say,
7 Hey, what happened three o'clock in the morning when you
8 went over to Lisa McPherson's house?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Never did?
11 A. No. Because I never had a direct thing. I heard
12 pieces of it, but not an exact blow by blow description, no.
13 Q. I would think that this event was fairly
14 monumental in your life as a Scientologist, that you would
15 have a conversation with your roommate, Suzanne, about the
16 job that she employed that was supposed to be yours --
17 A. Right. I
18 Q. -- and which you promised Lovett that you'd take
19 on.
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. And you never asked her, did you do it, did you go
22 to her house, what did you do?
23 A. Oh, I knew -- I knew she was not on post. So I
24 knew -- when I got with Janice and I was hearing -- Suzanne
2S had been there, she had not been back to our room. I had
53
1 even been asked to get clothes for her, for Suzanne. But I
2 was not -- she didn't leave Lisa.
3 Q. You were asked to get clothes for who?
4 A. For Suzanne, and take them to the MLO Office and
5 then they were taken to wherever --
6 Q. From your place?
7 A. From the MLO Office. Yeah, I got it out, clothes,
8 additional clothes for her that was taken, and all I was
9 told was she was on the watch.
10 Q. Suzanne was?
11 A. Yeah.
12 So at that point, that was when I told Janice that
13 I was perfectly willing to take my turn at watch, that I --
14 you know, I really had felt, you know, I should be involved.
15 Because I said, What's happening with Lisa?
16 In case -- because, see, my job, like I told you,
17 I was to take people to these doctors' appointments. The next
18 day I had nine people to take to appointments, was one of
19 the reasons I -- you know, I had other things. To take
20 me -- I was the only one with a vehicle. To take me and not
21 have me doing that would have meant more people could not
22 have gotten to their doctor's appointment.
23 Q. When was this conversation you had with Janice?
24 A. Probably 48 hours after the hospital situation.
25 She had been out of the hospital that long.
54
1 Q. So you don't know anything about Suzanne going to
2 Lisa's house at three o'clock in the morning?
3 A. All I know is she did leave with Mr. Fontana, and
4 I was -- the next evening I had a note to put clothes in
5 a -- in a bag and bring them to the MLO Office the next day,
6 which I did.
7 Q. All right. And --
8 A. I didn't see Suzanne --
9 Q. You've never talked with Suzanne about that night?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Not even since Lisa's been dead and this
12 investigation has gone on?
13 A. Suzanne wasn't even on the base much after --
14 Suzanne moved to the QI with her new husband to be with her
15 kids.
16 Q. Where is that?
17 A. The QI is over on 19, Highway 19, almost in Largo,
18 which is quite a ways away from us. So people that live
19 there --
20 Q. But that was sometime long after Lisa died?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. I'm talking about in between that period of time
23 when you guys are living in the same place. You never had a
24 conversation with her saying, Hey, what's going on here with
25 Lisa, what happened?
55
1 A. No, we -- from the time -- we were all told not to
2 discuss this.
3 Q. Who told you that?
4 A. After the first interview. I didn't even know she
5 had died --
6 Q. "First interview" is whose first interview?
7 A. The first interview I had with -- before --
8 about -- well, let's see. From the time she died till this
9 thing, I didn't -- after my conversation with Janice, Janice
10 told me that I was not to ask any questions about Lisa, that
11 it was being taken care of and just to forget it, everything
12 concerned. I was not --
13 Q. Janice said that to you?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. When?
16 A. That -- that 48 hours after.
17 Q. 48 hours after that Janice said that to you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And where did this conversation take place?
20 A. In the MLO Office.
21 Q. And who was present besides the two of you?
22 A. No one else. I made her come in my office.
23 Q. And the reason why you had her come into your
24 office was what, you wanted an explanation about what was
25 going on?
56
1 A. Yep, I sure did.
2 Q. And the reason why is because you told Dr. Lovett
3 you were going to take care of Lisa?
4 A. Well, that, and if I had signed that paper, that
5 if anything -- the demeanor that he had and the fact that I
6 was in and out of the Morton Plant Hospital several times a
7 week, that in case he asked me what was happening with her,
8 which occasionally he did ask me about people I had brought
9 in --
10 Q. This conversation with Janice, let me get back to
11 that before we get off-line here. You asked her to come to
12 talk to you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the subject of the conversation was
15 Lisa McPherson?
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. Now, it was your understanding who was in charge
18 of that watch?
19 A. Janice.
20 Q. Okay. And Janice, when you asked her what was
21 going on, she said?
22 A. None of your concern, you're off of it.
23 Q. None of your concern, you're off of it?
24 A. And that's when I had words with her about --
25 Q. I want to know why you were taken off of it.
57
1 A. I have no idea.
2 Q. Well, Lovett probably wants to know why you were
3 taken off of it.
4 A. That's right. I -- I had no idea. And that's
A what I wanted to know. I said, I'm skilled. If -- you
6 know, What's happening with her? If I have to talk to
7 Lovett, I need to know. Mr. Fontana had told me I was
8 supposed to stay on top of it, now you're telling me I'm
9 not. She says, You don't discuss this with anybody and you
10 don't -- you're off of it. End of subject.
11 So she and I had a lot of words over that.
12 Q. Well, tell me about those words. That's what I
13 want to know about.
14 A. Well, that's -- I --
15 Q. Other words other than this conversation? Did you
16 have another conversation with her or was this the only
17 conversation?
18 A. Yeah, I had several conversations with her.
19 Q. Well, I want to hear about those too.
20 A. Because I was -- I felt that -- I said, I at least
21 want to talk to Lisa or give her a note, because Lisa had
22 begged me to be there to help her. And I had promised her.
23 And I'm a person that if I promise somebody I'm going to do
24 something, I take that promise very, very serious. And it
25 upset me greatly that my promise was being trashed. It was
58
1 my personal integrity.
2 Q. Right.
3 A. And I was angry about that. And I wanted to know
4 who. And -- and I said, At least give me -- let me write it
5 out so that Lisa knows that I had attempted it and that
6 others have changed it, so that Lisa knows that I have
7 honored what I told her I would do.
8 I said, this has been a thing with Lisa. This is
9 why Lisa always came to me, was she could count on me doing
10 what I said I would do for her. And Janice told me in no
11 uncertain terms, she was my Senior, she was in charge of it,
12 and to get the hell out of it.
13 Q. All right. When did you -- when did you first
14 learn -- this conversation is taking place a couple days
15 after Lisa had been --
16 A. When did I learn that she died?
17 Q. No. We'll get to that.
18 I want to know when you learned that she was
19 placed in the Church Cabana room over there. You had no
20 idea they were doing that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. When did you learn that?
23 A. When I had been told I needed to go to an Eckerd's
24 drugstore, which was not the normal Eckerd's drugstore that
25 we used, and pick up some sedatives for Lisa that
59
1 Dr. Minkoff had prescribed.
2 Q. You picked those up?
3 A. Yes, and I had to sign for them. And I had to
4 bring them back to the Fort Harrison and give them to the
5 Security Chief.
6 Q. And that was -- do you remember what day that was?
7 A. No, I don't.
8 Q. Well, she had her auto accident on Saturday.
9 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Saturday,
10 November 18th.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Sunday or Monday maybe?
13 A. It was probably a Monday, because -- no, it was a
14 Sunday.
15 Q. Well, it looks like it might have been Monday.
16 A. Because --
17 Q. Prescription for Valium, I think, is Monday.
18 A. Yeah, Monday.
19 Q. Let's go with Monday.
20 A. It's one of those days. But I -- the thing that
21 got me was, it was a total different Eckerd's than we
22 I normally use. We usually use the one right next to --
23 Q. Why did you think that was important?
24 A. Well, I mean, it was just out of sequence. If
25 Dr. Minkoff had -- normally would use -- to do a
60
1 prescription, to call in, he always would ask me where, when
2 he would see the executives, Where do you want it called?
3 Q. Right.
4 A. And I would give him the Eckerd's there -- we
5 usually used either (the one on Cleveland or the one on
6 Gulf-To-Bay. This one was clear down in Largo. Totally --
7 you know, it was a 25, 30 minute drive to get to it. And
8 you know, that was strange. Why -- why were we using the
9. different one.
10 Q. Did you ever find out why that was?
11 A. No.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. So I -- and I -- and so I questioned the person --
14 Q. Who told you to pick up the prescription?
15 A. I was paged from the MLO Office. I had my beeper.
16 I was not in the office. I had to call the MLO Office. And
17 I said -- I was told to go to this Eckerd's, pick up this.
18 Q. And you saw then that it was a prescription for
19 Lisa McPherson?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Is that the first you realized that Lisa McPherson
22 was staying in the Cabana at the hotel?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. That moment then --
25 A. Yeah.
61
1 Q. -- is the fIrst moment you realized she was there?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Who did you bring the prescription back to?
4 A. Security at Fort Harrison.
5 Q. Which one?
6 A. I was just told to bring it to the Security Office
7 and leave it.
8 Q. Is that the one down there in the parking garage?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Do you remember leaving it with anybody or did you
11 just leave it in the office?
12 A. I gave it to Arthur Baxter, who was the
13 Security Guard that I knew very well.
14 Q. Arthur Baxter, okay.
15 A. He was in that office.
16 Q. Did you ask Arthur Baxter what the deal was there?
17 Did you ask him if Lisa was staying at the hotel?
18 A. I said, I -- I see these are for Lisa. He says,
19 Yeah, we'll get them to her.
20 Q. All right. Who was the next -- did you inquire
21 then?
22 A. I said, How's she doing? He says, You'll have to
23 ask your Senior that.
24 Q. All right. Did you follow up now with your
25 suspicions at least that Lisa was staying at the hotel?
62
1 A. I went to Janice.
2 Q. Again?
3 A. Yeah
4 Q. Is this the first time, second time or third time?
5 A. This is about the second time.
6 Q. So she still hadn't told you that Lisa was staying
7 there?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. And tell me that conversation.
10 A. I asked her how Lisa was doing. I said, I had to
11 pick up some sedatives for Lisa. You know, What's happening
12 with her? I'd like to know so I -- I'm just -- I just need
13 info in case I run into Lovett. And she kept telling me,
14 You don't have to worry about him. Forget that. I'm in
15 charge. And you don't need to know anything. It's none of
16 your concern. Butt out.
17 At which -- I was not willing to butt out. And I
18 got angry, to be very honest. And my voice raises when I
19 get angry. And I -- she and I were in a screaming match.
20 And I told her I didn't think this was right, all I was
21 asking for was information and she wouldn't give me the
22 information that I needed. That I was -- I had been
23 responsible for this person and I didn't like what I was
24 seeing. And I wanted to know, in case anybody asked.
2S Q. What do you mean by that, you didn't like what you
63
1 were seeing?
2 A. The --
3 Q. The fact that you were excluded?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. That's what you're referring to?
6 A. That's what I'm referring.
7 Q. You don't know what's going on?
8 A. I don't know what's happening to Lisa, I never got
9 to see her, so I have no knowledge...
10 Q. Did you have any conversation with Suzanne at this
11 point? I mean, I would think that would be the direction
12 you would head, to your roommate.
13 A. Suzanne wasn't in. Suzanne had not returned to
14 our unit.
15 MS. SINGER: I think she testified at least
16 that 48 hours, maybe that 72 hours, is this correct --
17 THE WITNESS: A Yeah.
18 MS. SINGER: -- that you had not crossed
19 paths?
20 A. Yeah, I haven't crossed paths with my roommate, so
21 I didn't know. But I was hearing that they were, you know,
22 trying to run around and find somebody for a watch, to take
23 over part of the watch and things. And that's what I had
24 said --
25 Q. That's when you realized there was some type of
64
1 cycle going on?
2 A. Yeah, there was a thing. And they were pulling
3 Emma into it, and they were pulling everybody else but me.
4 And I went to her -- I mean, they pulled the dental
5 assistant, they pulled -- they were pulling every kind of
6 person.
7 And I went to Janice and I said, Look, Lisa
8 didn't -- you've got to stop this.
9 Q. You went to who?
10 A. Janice.
11 Q. Janice.
12 A. You've got to stop this, 'cause Lisa was specific
13 when I signed her out, she was specific, she didn't want
14 people she didn't know. She didn't like people who didn't
15 speak English because, you know -- and she says, they're not
16 talking around her.
17 I said, you know, If I was in this situation -- I
18 know when I'm in the hospital or something, I only want
19 people I want around me, people I like. And I said, Lisa's
20 the same way, she only wants people -- you know, why can't
21 you guys do what Lisa asks? Who do I have to talk to? She
22 kept saying, It's out of your hands. You have nothing to
23 say in this. And I said, Well, then if I don't, then you
24 do, you have the right to say. Why can't you make it
25 happen?
65
1 Q. Who's cailing the shots on this thing?
2 A. I have no idea. Usually the ones I've done before
3 was your --
4 Q. What do you mean, "done before"? You've been
5 through watches like this before?
6 A. I've been on parts, yeah.
7 Q. Who was that? When was that?
8 A. So somebody's Type III and you had a watch?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Well, I'd like to hear about that.
11 A. Well, usually it's the Security Chief and the CS.
12 And the only part I would get involved in was to go get
13 names of doctors, take them -- you know, make sure that
14 they've seen a doctor for a physical situation. And
15 helped -- you know, is this something where they could
16 travel.
17 Q. So when was it in this -- in this scenario where
18 she's at the Cabana of the hotel that it finally dawned on
19 you, hey, Lisa's here on an isolation watch because she's
20 Type III? When did that light go off in your head?
21 A. When I picked up the sedatives.
22 Q. Okay. That's when you realized what the deal was?
23 A. Something -- you know, 'cause this is what
24 surprised me, because she didn't have the Type III behavior
25 when I checked her out of the hospital. Two days later --
66
1 and I'm looking -- and like I tried telling Janice, Shoot, I
2 would thow fits if I had people I didn't want around me.
3 You know, let's -- the whole idea is to make it calm, make
4 it less stimulative in the environment. Possibly what you
5 were doing is restimulating her. Let me go in and see
6 what -- maybe I can get some information.
7 She didn't like Janice at all, and Janice was
8 going over there every day.
9 Q. How did you know that?
10 A. Because Lisa had told me one of the reasons she
11 would not come to the MLO Office those other times on a
12 follow-up was Janice was there. She'd only stay with me.
13 And she told me she didn't like her.
14 Q. Just a personality difference?
15 A. Just a personality difference.
16 So I was looking at this, that --
17 Q. How did she get along with Suzanne Green, or
18 Suzanne Schuremberger?
19 A. She tolerated her.
20 Q. But you were her contact?
21 A. Yeah. Suzanne wasn't an MLO, she couldn't do
22 anything. Lisa --
23 Q. Wasn't any MLO yet?
24 A. She was not an MLO, period. Her job was just
25 to -- to keep the things -- the MLO running.
67
1 Q. I might have some bad information.
2 MR. McGARRY: Was she an MLO at one time?
3 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: No.
4 Schuremberger was the Office Manager of the
5 Medical Liaison Office.
6 Q. Okay. I gotcha.
7, A. She was never an MLO.
8 Q. Okay. Just a matter of semantics. Little mix-up
9 there. Okay.
1O A. So if she wanted -- if Lisa wanted to know
11 anything about a medical situation or -- or that, she would
12 come see me. And I would -- if she had a question about
13 a -- a term that Dr. Decuypere or any of the other doctors
14 had used, that she didn't understand, I would get my
15 Taber's Cyclopedia Medical Dictionary out, we would look it
16 up, which is a normal occurrence for a Scientologist.
17 Q. Emma was an MLO, right, then, wasn't she?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. How did she get along with Emma?
20 A. Well, she just didn't go to Emma because she had
21 started with me, and I was the kind of person that she
22 liked. We just had a rapport. And I'd established my
23 beeper -- Emma didn't have a beeper at that time. And I had
24 established with Lisa that if she had any problem, any time
25 of the day or night, my pager was on 24 hours a day, she
68
1 could always beep me and I would answer.
2 Q. Is there a possibility that the process or the
3 cycle they were going through with Lisa McPherson was beyond
4 your spiritual education or experience?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. So that's not the answer to that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Because you'd gone through these before?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. So to this day don't know why you were cut out of
11 the cycle?
12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. All right. Have you ever had a conversation with
14 Alain Kartuzinski about this?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you ever had a conversation with
17 Brian Anderson about this?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What further conversations did you have with
20 Janice Johnson after the screaming match? Was that the last
21 one or were there further ones?
22 A. Yeah, then I avoided her.
23 Q. That was it with that?
24 A. Well, no, I can't say it was the last one. I had
25 one other one.
70
1 A. The dentist. Which upset me greatly.
2 Q. I'd like to hear about that.
3 That was a conversation you weren't supposed to
4 hear --
5 A. That's --
6 Q. -- but you did hear?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. At -- it was a cycle that I heard of them holding
10 her down and forcing aspirin down her. Having worked in
11 Oregon with the seniors in an abuse situation, that upset --
12 that just stressed me highly. I says, You can't do this,
13 you can't physically hold somebody down. There are other
14 ways -- you know, what doctor's order did you have to do
15 this? I said, in Oregon it takes, by law, a doctor.
16 Q. When you heard this conversation, did you
17 interject yourself into it?
18 A. They shut the door. I said, wait a minute, I'd
19 like to talk to you guys. And they shut the door and locked
20 it. They were in David's office.
21 So I waited till Janice came out. And I took her
22 in my office, or the office we shared so -- I didn't want to
23 do it in front of a lot of people. But I found I was so
24 angry that others heard through the wall.
25 Q. Right.
71
1 A. Because I was very livid, to say the least, I'll
2 admit to myself. I says, You can't do that. What doctor --
3 you've got Dr. Minkoff's order to do this? 'Cause I knew he
4 was the doctor of record, if he ordered the -- are you
5 talking to Minkoff? Is he knowing what's going on here?
6 At which time she told me to butt out. I said,
7 People are getting injured, you know, I've got to answer to
8 the doctors here, how are they getting injured? What are we
9 doing? Something's wrong here. And what -- this is not a
10 normal situation. I've never had any of the others --
11 before you came on this post I've never had this problem.
12 I've never heard of a -- this violence. What's happening?
13 I don't know. It's none of your concern.
14 We're -- you're not involved. And I said, I've never seen
lS Lisa this violent. She says, Well, you know psychotic
16 breaks. I said, Excuse me. I wanted to, you know ...
17 So I had written to Judy Fontana, who was our
18 Legal Officer, that they better check into it. See, when we
19 find something out, we're supposed to notify the proper
20 terminal. So I just called Judy Fontana, I says, You better
21 take a look at this.
22 Q. Did you write her a letter or did you call her
23 personally?
24 A. I called her personally.
25 Q. Okay.
72
1 A. I was so angry that I had to get out of there
2 before -- it's not easy for me -- I almost came to blows
3 with Janice and Dave on that. Which has now created a very
4 big ridge between the three of us.
5 So--
6 Q. Well, that's probably something to do with --
7 other than the fact that Lisa died, it has something to do
8 with the reason Janice isn't in the MLO Office anymore,
9 correct?
lO A. That's true.
11 Q. She's --
12 A. Neither am I.
13 Q. Neither are you.
14 What do you do now?
15 A. I do purchasing on sewing.
16 Q. Okay. Something completely unrelated with all the
17 skills that you had for 20 or 30 years?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Sewing, I am a tailor, I used to make my son's
21 clothes, so I mean --
22 Q. I misspoke then. Excuse me.
23 A. Yeah. So that was just a hobby, the sewing was a
24 hobby.
25 Q. Right.
73
1 A. But yes, I was very -- it almost came to blows,
2 which would have gotten me into more trouble.
3 Q. Certainly.
4 A. So at that point I just avoided David and Janice
5 at all costs. I would be civil with them, I would give them
6 the reports. If I could do it in writing, I did.
7 Q. Give them reports on the other activities that you
8 did in reference to your job --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- as the MLO Officer?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Did you get any other word from any of these
13 people -- I've interviewed 20 caretaker people, you probably
14 know most of them -- as to how Lisa was doing? Did you get
15 any--
16 A. If I had the list I could tell you.
17 Q. I have the list right here. It's my personal
18 list. I talked to all those people.
19 A. Yeah, Sylvia I know. Rita Boykin is the dental
20 assistant.
21 MS. SINGER: He's asking you --
22 Q. Did you ever have any conversations with any of
23 those people in reference to how Lisa was doing?
24 A. Emma, Joann Stevens, Alice Vangrondelle,
25 Valerie Demange.
74
1 Q. Were these conversations during this watch or
2 after the watch was all over?
3 A. Alice and Joann Stevens I had to -- she had a
4 black eye from this situation, and there were other people.
5 But basically, Alice asked me a question, and I had asked
6 Emma what was happening with Lisa. And Emma told me she
7 couldn't tell me anything. Alice asked us a specific
8 question, a medical type of question. And -- but she didn't
9 tell me it was for Lisa.
10 Q. You kind of suspected?
11 A. Yeah. At which time I really told her it -- she
12 needed to get ahold of a doctor.
13 Q. Well, you obviously knew somewhere along the line
14 after you started treating black eyes and bruises that Lisa
15 was exhibiting physical behavior --
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. -- not just psychotic behavior?
18 A. My question was, like, why was it being allowed to
19 perpetuate.
20 Q. What would have been your --
21 A. What would I have done?
22 Q. Yeah that's my question. You've got --
23 A. I would have been screaming at Dr. Minkoff to give
24 me some heavier sedation and some IV solutions when I'm
25 I hearing that she's not eating or something. I'm going, Wait
75
1 a minute --
2 Q. Didn't that take a doctor, or at least a nurse --
3 A. Minkoff's a doctor.
4 Q. -- licensed nurse at that, to administer that,
5 IVs?
6 A. You can administer it under doctor's order. You
A can do it --
8 Q. She had IVs, you're aware of that?
9 A. No, there were some sedatives that were
10 administered.
11 I normally, what I had observed in my training and
12 what I worked with, you would have sedated them heavily,
13 totally, where they were sound asleep, put an IV in,
14 hydrated them.
15 Q. The IV part keeps them from --
16 A. The sedation part keeps them from pulling out the
17 IV, keeps from them being dangerous to themselves, keeps
18 them from harming anybody else. Do this for several days,
19 the body starts to function. Get them the food they need to
20 repair, they come out of it. Why this wasn't done, I don't
21 know.
22 Q. You're not sure what was done?
23 A. I have no idea what was done or what wasn't done,
24 except I know that no IVs were administered, because I was
25 the one going after stuff for a time. Then they got other
76
1 things, they had somebody --
2 Q. You got more than the first prescription on
3 Monday? Did you go back out for something?
4 A. I would be requested to do it, but couldn't do it,
5 so they had to get somebody else.
6 Q. Couldn't do it because of the conflict you had
7 with Janice?
8 A. No. I had a conflict, I was in Tampa or someplace
9 else--
10 Q. Oh, I follow.
11 A. -- and they needed it right now, and I couldn't be
12 in two places at the same time.
13 Q. So you never got one single visit with Lisa?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And that wasn't on your own accord, that was on
16 somebody else's order?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Janice's, specifically? She's your boss, your
19 Senior.
20 A. Yeah, my Senior.
21 Q. So who was the first person you had contact with
22 that things had finally gone really bad and Lisa had
23 expired?
24 A. Dr. Lovett.
25 Q. Dr. Lovett is the one that called you?
77
1 A. No. I happened to take a person to the hospital.
2 And Dr. Lovett saw me there, he was not the doctor that was
3 taking care of the person, but he saw me and says, Oh, by
4 the way, I read in the newspaper your Lisa McPherson died.
5 So I had to--
6 Q. That must have been -- let's see. She died on the
7 5th, which was a Tuesday. So do you think that was day or
8 two after that?
9 A. Oh, it was -- it was a week. It was the following
10 week.
11 Q. A week after that?
12 A. Yeah. He said last week's paper. So it was a
13 week after it had been published, so whenever it had been
14 published. I didn't read the newspaper.
15 Q. I would think the gossip community within your
16 organization there would have a hard time keeping a lid on
17 that.
18 A. No.
19 Q. It did?
20 A. That's right, it did.
21 Q. 'Cause all these people must have known, at least
22 the people that --
23 A. Let's put it this way --
24 Q. Security knew. Janice knew. Kellerhaus knew.
25 A. Yeah, Kellerhaus was the main --
78
1 Q. Laura knew. Greenwood knew.
2 A. Oh, yeah, I found out later on that.
3 Q. They took her to the hospital.
4 A. Yeah.
5 I carried on about -- because I was in and out,
6 not in the office so much --
7 Q. Yeah.
8 A. -- I didn't know a whole lot.
9 Q. Right.
10 A. I had to start piecing -- after she died we -- we
11 had a huge amount of people went into isolation.
12 Q. Okay. So that's when -- but that was --
13 A. But that didn't all click.
14 Q. Wasn't immediately though.
15 A. That didn't all click to me. Well, I was kind of
16 kept away from them till the third day, when I started
17 asking questions. You know, wait a minute, why have we got
18 so many people? Well, it's -- it's some -- they've been
19 exposed to something.
20 Q. Right.
21 A. Well, we have so many people from all over the
22 world --
23 Q. Sure.
24 A. -- that I didn't put two and two together that
25 they were from the -- this one watch. There were so many, I
79
1 didn't put it together. Normally we have like six people on
2 a watch and they rotate, it's just those six people. But we
3, had like 40 some people.
4 Q. Oh, yeah?
5 A. So I didn't -- I didn't really -- you don't have
6 half of them.
7 Q. There's more than this?
8 A. Oh, yeah.
9 Q. On the Lisa McPherson watch?
10 A. Yeah. Some people were just a few hours, some
11 people days, I don't know. I mean, like I said, I didn't
12 realize how many until I had to go out and pick up
13 temperatures from these five different places. And I'm
14 looking at, who's all --
15 Q. What do you mean, temperatures? I'm not following
16 you on that.
17 A. Well, we had orders to -- these were people that
18 were quarantined, and we had to have their temperatures
19 taken --
20 Q. I follow you now, okay.
21 A. -- to see if they exhibited any symptoms of what
22 she had.
23 Q. Who knows, meningitis --
24 A. I don't know. Whatever.
2S Q. -- hepatitis?
80
1 A. They didn't -- since I wasn't around, you know, I
2 wasn't privileged to what was going on. I was just told to
3 go get, on the third day, the temperatures from all these
4 different areas. Because I waso just carrying on and doing
5 my post, you know, I didn't know what -- until after I had
6 talked with Lovett, then it -- you know, the light bulb came
7 on.
8 Q. You didn't read the newspapers at the time?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Still probably don't?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. And so I'm going, Oh. So then, you know, then
14 there was some questions. And I'm going, Well, who -- you
15 know, I didn't know till -- who all was involved with
16 driving her from the Fort Harrison to Port Richey.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MR. McGARRY: We've been going for a while,
19 we'll take a little break and then we'll continue on.
20 (Short recess is held.)
21 MR. McGARRY: All right. Back on the record.
22 BY MR. McGARRY:
23 Q. We're in the area of when you found out that Lisa
24 had passed away. And I believe you indicated that the first
25 indication you had was the doctor over at Morton Plant?
81
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Dr. Lovett?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Back to that conversation.
5 Did you -- did he then realize when he said that
6 to you that you didn't even know?
7 A. Yes, he did. Because he asked me, he said, you
8 know, he says, you knew she died? And without thinking,
9 Well, no. He said, Well, hadn't you been around her? And I
10 said -- he says, When -- and I said, Well, the last time I
11 saw her she was just fine. I said, I had other duties and
12 there were other people taking care of her.
13 Q. Right.
14 Well, you were probably taken back a little bit
15 then?
16 A. Yeah, I was. And I didn't -- I wasn't gonna lie
17 to him that I hadn't seen her since I'd left --
18 Q. Morton Plant?
19 A. -- Morton Plant, because that would have --
20 because of his actions when I left that night.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. So I just said, well, the last time I saw her she
23 was doing fine, something must have happened real quick.
24 Q. All right. I can only guess that this caused you
25 to go back to the hotel and stir something up.
82
1 A. I went back to the MLO Office and got on the phone
2 to Judy Fontana, who was the Legal Officer, and I said that
3 I had talked with him. She wanted to know what had happened
4 and I told her.
5 Q. What had happened? You mean the conversation you
6 had with Lovett?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. She was concerned about that?
9 A. Yeah -- well, I was the one who was concerned. I
10 said -- you know, and I gave her the scenario of what had
11 happened that night. I said, Now, you know, what's gonna
12 happen? You know, he thinks I took care of her.
13 Q. And you didn't.
14 A. And I didn't. And I had no -- no knowledge that
15 she had died. I mean, I -- I was upset because, I said,
16 here you guys left me with no knowledge, knowing I go in
17 that hospital, that I might run into him. You didn't
18 even -- I was really angry. You left me open for this.
19 Q. The expression of being hung out to dry, would
20 that apply to that particular scenario for you?
21 A. No, blind-sided is what I would call it.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. It was worse than being hung out to dry. I didn't
24 know what Lovett might do.
25 Q. Right.
83
1 A. And I didn't want myself in a vulnerable -- I felt
2 in a very vulnerable position. And I was quite angry at the
3 fact that I was in that kind of position when I had been,
4 you know, kind of led to believe that I would never be in a
5 position like that.
6 So I called and asked what I should do. And she
7 said she would let me know. Up to this point just what I
8 had done was okay and just leave it at that.
9 She asked if he had asked any...questions about her
10 care or anything. And I said, No, I forestalled him, 'cause
11 I didn't have any answers, and I just kept saying, Well, she
12 was fine when I saw her. And then I have -- you know, and
13 then used the excuse, There's 1000 people on the base --
14 Q. Sure.
15 A. -- and only one of me. At that point it was down
16 to just one and Emma, and I just didn't have -- and maybe he
17 would buy it.
18 Q. All right. So other than the conversation that
19 you overheard Dr. Houghton having with Janice Johnson about
20 Lisa -- and I think there was a third person there?
21 A. Laura Arrunada.
22 Q. Laura was there too.
23 Other than that excerpt, you're not aware of what
24 exactly these caretakers where doing --
25 A. No.
84
1 Q. -- over there?
2 Okay. Did any of your -- you guys in the
3 organization refer to them as Coms or communications. Did
4 any of these things that you've -- you've described to me
5 between Fontana and Janice and Suzanne, anybody, did any of
6 those get memorialized by you? Did you write any memos or
7 any reports --
8 A. Any reports that I --
9 Q. -- in reference to Lisa McPherson?
10 A. That would be the -- yeah, there were reports I
11 wrote that would go to her PC folder.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. But they -- we never kept any reports or any
14 interoffice memos in the MLO.
15 Q. Are you talking about back in the summer or during
16 this 17 days?
17 A. The 17 days I didn't, because I didn't --
18 Q. You weren't in it?
19 A. I wasn't in it, so I wouldn't have any reason to
20 write. The only thing that I knew of was my phone calls to
21 them for --
22 Q. Conversations on the phone? .
23 A. If it deals with taking care of somebody who had
24 been a caretaker.
25 Q. Okay. So there might have been in --
85
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. -- reference to the treatment for bruises and
3 stuff like that?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. But nothing to do with Lisa or anything like that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you ever do -- did you ever write a CYA
8 report?
9 You know what I'm saying?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Like to Fontana, OSA or something, saying, look --
12 you know, I want this to be memorialized because I promised
13 him--
14 No.
15 Q. -- such and such, you know, now I'm on the hook?
16 A. Nothing was -- the only time that any of that came
17 together was, they brought all of us in before -- when they
18 got a notice that the police were doing an investigation.
19 So they brought me in and I had to do -- write up a sequence
20 of events of what I did.
21 Q. Okay. This is --
22 A. Which would be your immortalization.
23 Q. Right.
24 When did this occur?
25 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: That would have
86
1 been with Bob Johnson? Were you involved with
2 Bob Johnson then?
3 THE WITNESS: Yeah, uh-huh.
4 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: So it would have
5 been when Sudler and Teunis were investigating --
6 THE WITNESS: Yeah, those were the Officers
7 that we had to talk to.
8 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: -- and took a
9 statement.
10 MR. McGARRY: It was probably pretty short.
11 You just talked about Morton Plant, your first
12 involvement there and then you're out?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: You gave a
15 statement May 29th of '96.
16 THE WITNESS: Right.
17 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: So it would have
18 been before the statement that you came in and had --
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: So somewheres
21 around April --
22 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
23 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: -- of 1996?
24 A. They were looking to see who was involved, to see
25 who was what.
87
1 Q. Who is "they"?
2 A. The -- I believe the --
3 Q. OSA Office? .
4 A. Yeah, uh-huh.
5 Q. I'm curious as to, who are those people?
6 A. I was brought in and kind of segregated. This is
7 where I started piecing things together, because Janice
8 and -- and Paul and Laura were in the same room, and then
9 Security says, oh, you can't have Judy in there with them,
10 so they put me in another room all by myself. And that
11 night I came in and talked to an attorney, I believe it was
12 Mr. Richardson.
13 MS. SINGER: And I'm going to caution you not
14 to talk about any conversations you had with your
15 attorneys.
16 MR. McGARRY: I'll be careful not to ask
17 that.
18 MS. SINGER: Thank you.
19 Q. You touched on something --
20 A. Yeah...
21 Q. -- I am curious about.
22 You saw Janice and Paul and Laura in the same room
23 together writing a report, at Security down there in the
24 parking garage?
25 A. Yes. They were talking amongst themselves and --
88
1 Q. You think the subject was Lisa McPherson though?
2 A. We were all there on that cycle. When I got --
3 MS. SINGER: Let me just clarify. Did you
4 testify, when that person came in and said we need to
5 get Judy out of that room, did you observe them talking
6 or writing? I sense some
7 THE WITNESS: Both.
8 MS. SINGER: Okay.
9 Q. And it was -- subject matter was Lisa McPherson?
10 A. I -- that's what we were all there for. I don't
11 know what they were --
12 Q. Okay. What's the date of this?
13 MR. McGARRY: Do you know the date of this?
14 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: No.
15 That would be sometime in April?
16 THE WITNESS: Yeah, would be sometime later.
17 It would be later.
18 Q. Again, this is not the night she died?
19 A. No, this is later.
20 Q. All right. Do you remember what you wrote down?
21 A. What I wrote down?
22 Q. Yes. Pretty much what you just told me?
23 A. Just exactly what I've told you here.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Except I didn't put the conversations --
89
1 Q. Right. I'm sure you left out the conversations
2 with Dr. Johnson and what you would have done.
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. And I can understand why you did that.
5 Some people from the organization went to her
6 funeral. Were you aware of that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Are you aware that she had a funeral, where it
9 was?
10 A. No. I had no knowledge of that.
11 Q. Are you familiar enough with the Hubbard techs to
12 know what the term "Introspection Rundown" means?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I've heard that expression on numerous occasions
15 from several people in here that came in and said that was
16 what ultimately was going to be the cycle that they were
17 going to get her calm enough to get, which is, I guess, a
18 lot of auditing.
19 A. Yeah, it is an auditing faction.
20 Q. It's a Type III scenario --
21 A. Well --
22 Q. -- after she's recovered?
23 A. Well, they can run an Introspection on somebody
24 who isn't a Type III.
25 Q. Okay.
90
1 A. I mean, it's -- you can't use it as just for that.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. But the Case Manager is the one who decides what
4 the next action needs to be done with that person based on
5 what he sees in the reports from the Auditor and other
6 things that's happening in their life.
7 He has -- in the PC folder, it's all there,
8 everything -- many times there's things in the PC folder
9 that is not in any other place. And that person sits and
10 studies that. It may be multiple -- it could be anywhere
11 from one folder to -- I know of one person had 196 folders.
12 And these folders range about six inches thick. So it -- it
13 can be very time consuming. But he knows that person
14 probably -- the Case Manager, the CS, knows that person
15 probably better than that person knows himself.
16 Q. From all the auditing?
17 A. Well, or from --
18 Q. Those are notes from auditing?
19 A. There's notes, there's all kinds of -- there's any
20 ethics action, there's any Acknowledgement Reports put in
21 there, there's any communications that you want to send to
22 them. You know, I am not feeling good, I -- it's a very
23 it's very -- can be a very mountainous amount of material.
24 Q. But that's what the Senior Case Supervisor makes
25 his assessment on whether or not an Introspection Rundown
91
1 should be occurring?
2 A. Yes. Or whatever action, what kind of audit.
3 Q. And that person, to the best of your knowledge,
4 would have been Alain Kartuzinski?
5 A. Yes...
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. Or -- and he should have -- a Mr. Richard Reese
8 should have also overseen.
9 Q. Okay. Who is Richard Reese now?
10 A. He is the Senior to Alain Kartuzinski.
11 Q. Senior in Clearwater?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Still is?
14 A. He's the Senior CS for the FSO.
15 Q. Okay. He still is?
16 A. Yes, uh-huh.
17 Q. So he's over Kartuzinski?
18 A. Yeah. He is the one --
19 Q. Kartuzinski --
20 A. If there's any problems, Kartuzinski has any
21 problems, Mr. Reese is the one who has to make sure there's
22 any corrections.
23 Q. I see. Now, there are a number of people that
24 got -- I don't want to use the word "demoted," but had their
25 posts changed in reference to this. One of them being
92
1 Brian Anderson. Talked to him last week.
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Another one being Mr. Kartuzinski.
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. He's an Auditor now, as opposed to a Senior Case
6 Supervisor, correct?
7 A. I -- I'm not in that Org anymore, so I don't know.
8 Q. Okay. You. Janice.
9 A. Uh-huh...
10 Q. Laura's in Mexico now.
11 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
12 Miss Schuremberger is in Germany.
13 A. Yeah, she's left the group all together.
14 Q. That's Suzanne Green?
15 A. Right.
16 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: The new married
17 name is Green?
18 THE WITNESS: Correct.
19 Q. Is she still in Germany?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. You guys were friends at one time, still are or
22 not? Would you describe your relationship as close?
23 A. Suzanne?
24 Q. You lived together for months and months.
25 A. Yeah, months, Laura and I and Suzanne.
93
1 Q. Okay. Did you get to see Laura when she was
2 brought back for our interview with her? She came into town
3 for a week or so.
4 A. I happened to see her on the street, and that was
5 it. No, I didn't --
6 QL So you never had a conversation with her when she
7 came back?
8 A. Unh-unh, no. They told all of us not to discuss
9 it amongst ourselves..
10 Q. Who is "they"?
11 A. The Office of Special Affairs.
12 Q. Okay. Do you know who specifically that person
13 is?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Just the office?.
16 A. That's -- it just came out.
17 Q. Okay. And that information was disseminated to
18 you how? Do you know what I mean? How did you hear that?
19 Who told you don't discuss it? If it's lawyers, you can say
20 lawyers or whatever. It may be lawyers.
21 A. It was the night that -- that I was brought in
22 to -- and Mr. Richardson told us.
23 MS. SINGER: That is a lawyer.
24 A. It would be a lawyer. Elliott Richardson.
25 MR. McGARRY: Is he a local lawyer here?
94
1 MS. SINGER: No, he's a California guy.
2 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Would that be
3 Elliott Abelson?
4 MS. SINGER: Was it Elliott Abelson, the
5 folks that flew in from California?
6 THE WITNESS: I don't know where he came
7 from, I just --
8 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Older gentleman,
9 large jowls?
10 THE WITNESS: No, no. This is a very young,
11 okay, very --
12 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Well dressed?
13 THE WITNESS: Extremely well.
14 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Extremely well.
15 MS. SINGER: In an abundance of caution, I
16 believe it is a lawyer, so --
17 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it was a lawyer.
18 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: That's the first
19 time he came up in the case, Richardson has come up.
20 THE WITNESS: Well, he was, I believe --
21 well, he was the first one that we were -- we were
22 talked to to get the whole scenario before we talked to
23 the -- the two police.
24 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Okay.
25 THE WITNESS: Yeah. So whoever -- whomever
95
1 it was.
2 BY MR. McGARRY:
3 Q. So generally, when somebody's post is changed, or
4 the Church perceives them to have committed an ethical or a
5 wrong or something that's not quite right, I've learned that
6 they have a Committee of Evidence. Are you familiar with
7 that term?
8 A. Oh, yes.
9 Q. Okay. Are you aware of one happening to you?
10 A. I did not have one, no, sir.
11 Q. Okay. Are you aware of one happening to
12 Dr. Johnson?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. All I knew is RTC, which is -- stands for -- which
16 are higher ones, came in. What I was told by our department
17 head was, RTC ordered her out of the MLO Office.
18 Q. RTC is -- what department is that?
19 A. That's the Religious Training Organization.
20 Q. And where are they, California people?
21 A. Yes, uh-huh.
22 Q. Do you remember who that person was?
23 A. I was never given which.
24 Q. You just heard --
25 A. All the designation was that RTC ordered it,
96
1 whoever.
2 Q. How about Alain Kartuzinski?
3 A. I have -- I haven't -- I was put in --
4 Q. How about Brian Anderson?
5 A. -- put into the EPF and then put into another Org.
6 Q. EPF is?
7 A. Estates Training Force. It's a group -- when you
8 first come in, you get put in there and get trained to put
9 your basics in or whatever. I was put in --
10 Q. Back to basic training for you?
11 A. I was told I was put there for my protection.
12 Q. I can understand.
13 A. Not that I had done something, because I didn't
14 have to redo -- normally if you go into that because your
15 basics are out, there are certain courses you have to do.
16 Q. Right.
17 A. I didn't have to do those courses.
18 Q. Right.
19 You mentioned earlier in our conversation that
20 you've been privy to other isolation watches and I can't
21 remember what you said, were they other Type III
22 personalities?
23 A. Yes, there were other Type IIIs.
24 Q. Were those here in Clearwater?
25 A. Yes, sir, they were.
97
1 Q. And do you remember any names of any individuals
2 that happened to go through those?
3 A. No. I --
4 Q. You've only been here since `94, so it would have
5 been since `94?
6 A. Yeah, that was prior to Lisa's situation.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. They were very quick. Most of the time I would
9 get them vitamins and check -- I never had anybody being --
10 demonstrating in any violence. They were usually here maybe
11 three or four days and --
12 Q. Tell me how that -- tell me the perfect scenario.
13 Well, give me an example of one that worked out perfectly,
14 how you -- did you run one?
15 A. I was never -- Security Chief was always the one
16 who ran it.
17 Q. Okay. But you observed all of the goings on?
18 A. Yeah, pretty -- well, limited. I didn't have any
19 dealings with the person.
20 Q. All right. So how would you --
21 A. So I would -- what would happen, I would get a
22 call.
23 Q. Right.
24 A. Judy, we've got a Type III. Dr. Minkoff --
25 Dr. Minkoff is the doctor of record on all Type IIIs. I
98
1 needs vitamins for so many days.
2 Q. Now, has he acknowledged that with the Church? Is
3 that the deal he's worked out?
4 A. I have it in writing, yeah.
5 Q. So he's the doctor and he understands the term
6 "Type III"?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Okay. All right.
9 A. Yeah, there's a letter in the MLO Office from
10 Dr. Minkoff stating he will see executives and Type IIIs and
11 Purists.
12 Q. Purists being only --
13 A. People that are going to do the
14 Purification Rundown, which is that you're going to sweat in
15 a sauna for five days. It's a way of getting drugs out of
16 the body.
17 Q. That's what Presley did.
18 A. Yeah. And I've done it.
19 Q. Ouch.
20 A. You -- actually, you get to enjoying it. It's
21 really a nice thing. Five hours, nobody can bother you.
22 You don't -- you come out. Don't get the idea you have to
23 stay in there. You come out, shower, cool down, have
24 something to drink.
25 Q. Minkoff's in charge of Type III, Purification --
99
1 and what's it's third one you said?
2 A. He would see the executives.
3 Q. Oh, top level?
4 A. Top level, if they need to be seen.
5 Q. And that's on record?
6 A. He wrote a letter to -- it was in my files and
7 Emma's file, and I put it in -- made it known to the
8 Captain FSO and, you know, I made it -- and the
9 Legal Officer. So wherever it would --
10 Q. He didn't get any money out of that, he's doing
11 that because he's a good Church member though?
12 A. No, we pay him for those services.
13 Q. He gets that aside from what he gets at
14 New Port Richey?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. That's something he gets for services he provided?
17 A. Yeah. We don't ask him to do it gratis, free, so
18 it's up to him what he wants to do.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. So to get back to that, Security usually -- which
21 is Mr. Kellerhaus or Mr. Arthur Baxter, Judy, I need
22 vitamins, because the MLO usually had vitamins, I need --
23 and he would tell me which vitamins he needed, B-1,
24 vitamin C, Niacin, whatever. I need this, I need so many
25 days worth. Okay. I need calcium and magnesium. It's a
l00
1 drink which helps calm the muscles down. Okay, fine. I'd
2 get it.
3 Sometimes we had a couple of them have been out at
4 the Saturn area. Some of them I would just take the
5 vitamins to Security at the Fort Harrison and leave, I would
6 not really know physically where they were located. They
7 tried usually not to have a lot of people know where these
8 people were located, it was so that they could have a quiet
9 time.
10 Then the watch would go on. There would be
11 different people, they would go off post to just do this
12 watch. I would make sure that food -- oh, that was the
13 other thing, make sure there was food delivered to them
14 so --
15 Q. Had no talking though, right?
16 A. There's no talkihg. Notes are passed. And make
17 sure that there was food for both the -- how many people are
18 on watch and the person.
19 Q. Duration, typically?
20 A. I know of one that lasted three and a half weeks.
21 He got auditing. He got to where he was fine, got the
22 vitamins, he got auditing, he was fine, went home. Some of
23 them were Staff members, some of them they -- they got them
24 to where they could travel, they were not a harm to
25 themselves or whatever, got them back to where -- turn them
101
1 over.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. This is the first time we've ever lost somebody
4 that I know of.
5 Q. Right.
6 So I assume this procedure also takes place at
7 other Church headquarters?
8 A. This could happen at any Church -- it could happen
9 anywhere, even in the local --
10 Q. So they have this procedure
11 A. This is a standard procedure..
12 Q. You don't have to be in Clearwater to have this
13 procedure?
14 A. No.
15 Q. This procedure can occur in California or any
16 other state, any other country in the world?
17 A. Yeah.
18 See, what you would do is, say you were in
19 Portland, Oregon, and you had a Type III. They would get
20 you to where you were better, they would have your -- your
21 folder sent to a Senior CS to evaluate to see if there was
22 anything gone wrong on any programs you had just been on for
23 something and what the next action would be. But they would
24 not put this person on any auditing lines until they had
25 corrected anything that was wrong.
102
1 And so that's what the Senior CS takes a look at
2 and evaluates. I mean, they take a look -- maybe it's
3 something that hadn't been noticed by the Auditor. Maybe
4 back in a folder that they hadn't really looked at. So one
5 of the jobs is what they call an FES, a folder error
6 summary --
7 Q. I'm familiar with the term.
8 A. -- is ran. Any time somebody gets ill or that is
9 on major what we call major auditing lines.
10 And Lisa was a Clear, is considered a very major
11 action, they're going to look to see if there was any flubs,
12 some process that wasn't done to the end phenomenon,
13 something was skipped or something that would have
14 precipitated, that could have been a cause or did she have
15 concerns that nobody looked at.
16 So that's why everything is sent -- you know, if
17 she came in to me and said -- if it was anything to do with
18 her case, it was my job or anybody else's job to forward
19 that to the CS, so that CS had a total picture of what was
20 happening with that person.
21 So it's like with my case, I had some concerns,
22 I'm concerned about my son, I was concerned about this
23 situation, my CS knows that that attention is on that.
24 Q. Right.
25 A. So that they can help address that and make
103
1 sure -- prevent some things.
2 Q. Right.
3 Suzanne Schuremberger, when did she go to Europe?
4 MR. McGARRY: Do you know the answer to that?
5 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: No, I don't..
6 THE WITNESS: And I don't know, because she
7 was living at the QI.
8 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: I think it was
9 prior to September of 1996, so it would have been
10 between --
11 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah.
12 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Was she still
13 here in April? No, she was probably gone in April too.
14 She wasn't in any of your meetings in April?
15 THE WITNESS: No, she was not.
16 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Okay. She was
17 gone.
18 BY MR. NcGARRY:
19 Q. Do you know why she left? .
20 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
21 Q. Don't know?
22 A. No.
23 Q. I sure would like to talk to her.
24 Now, you also mentioned in our previous discussion
25 that as many as 40 some odd people were involved in this
104
1 thing. That sounds like an awful lot of people involved in
2 this.
3 A. All I know is, there were 40 some odd people that
4 were put into a quarantine.
5 Q. Right.
6 A. And I was told later that they had all been
7 involved, whether it be as a Security -- you know, standing
8 out -- they had had some physical contact with her in some
9 state.
10 Q. Oh, that -- your perception is that could be
11 somebody bringing food --
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. -- or that could be somebody who changed the
14 sheets, that could be --
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. Okay. Who knows.
17 All right. I see what you're saying here.
18 Anybody that walked in the room or in the wing of the hotel?
19 A. Yeah, because that could have possibly been --
20 because they didn't know what it was.
21 Q. Right.
22 A. So they were told anybody that had been in the
23 physical area around her.
24 Q. So your assessment of the isolation watch is that
25 the person obviously that is being watched wants to be there
105
1 and wants to rid themselves of --
2 A. Oh yeah.
3 Q. -- the Type III personality that they possibly
4 have--
6 Q. whatever --
8 Q. -- demons might be --
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. -- posing a problem?
11 A. Yeah, because if they -- if they say they don't
12 want to be there, then they're allowed -- you know, we --
13 we -- we have taken somebody who's -- a student has come
14 here, say, from Europe and gone bonkers. Well, we've taken
15 and got them to where they were physically -- the doctor,
16 Dr. Minkoff, says they could travel and they will send a
17 Staff member with them to wherever their home is, get them
18 in contact with their family, let them know what has
19 happened, and they take over from there. So I mean, it
20 depends. They can either stay here or they can go home.
21 You know, it's what -- they convey that by a written
22 message.
23 Now, their Auditor talks to them or their -- you
24 know, that's -- that's a different cycle. But the people on
25 watch do not talk to them.
106
1 Q. I gotcha.
2 A. So there's a difference.
3 Q. Let's say I'm having a Type III problem and I
4 submit myself to an isolation watch and my third day I
5 think, you know, I'd really like to go swim in the pool.
6 Do you guys have a swimming pool over there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could I do that? Would that mess it all up?
9 A. They're -- they're allowed physical exercise.
10 Q. They can come and go, get ice cream, restaurant,
11 pool?
12 A. We wouldn't put you around where there are other
13 people. We might -- it would depend what the CS and what
14 the Security would say.
15 Q. All right.
16 A. There were people that we've had, Staff members in
17 the Hacienda where Lisa lived that have been, on a Type III,
18 that the people that are watching, yes, have taken to the
19 pool and they've swam, brought them back to their room,
20 that's fine.
21 Q. That was my question. I just didn't say --
22 A. Oh, they -- yeah, we -- we just do it when
23 they're -- they would write it. We'll do it when the Staff
24 have left for post or something, when there's not a whole
25 lot of people around. You wouldn't take them out when
107
1 everybody's out there doing exercises.
2 Q. All right.
3 A. So there is some control to that. If you wanted
4 some ice cream, we'd go get it for you. It depends.
5 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with
6 Marcus Quirino?
7 Do you know who he is?
8 A. Yes, uh-huh.
9 Q. Okay. Yes; you know who he is or yes, you have
10 had a conversation?
11 A. Yes, I know who he is. No, I did not have --
12 Q. That was an ambiguous question. It was my fault.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. You have not had a conversation with him?
15 A. I know him. I have not had a conversation with
16 him.
17 He also has had a change in post.
18 Q. Yes.
19 Have you had an opportunity to be interviewed by,
20 and I don't want to know, if you have, what you said, just
21 if you have, have you spoken to Sandy Weinberg or Lee Fugate
22 in reference to what your involvement was with this case?
23 Do you know who they are?
24 A. I'm not --
25 Q. They represent the Church as a whole.
108
1 A. Oh, yes. Okay, yes, I have.
2 Q. You have your own lawyer here.
3 A. Yes. I had a meeting with them first and then --
4 Q. Way back?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. It was after my meeting with her that I went to
8 the EPF.
9 Q. Oh, that was --
10 A. In November.
11 Q. Who was the EPF? Who was that?
12 A. That's the Estates Force.
13 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: That's where she
14 went back for training, to the EPF.
15 MR. McGARRY: I gotcha.
16 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: You said "her,"
17 was it a her?
18 MR. McGARRY: That would have been with
19 Sandy's partner?
20 THE WITNESS: I meant Sandy --
21 MS. SINGER: Laura Vaughan.
22 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Oh, Laura
23 Vaughan.
24 THE WITNESS: Laura Vaughan, yeah.
25 MR. McGARRY: The prescription that you
109
1 mentioned that you went to pick up, I know the
2 Detective here is going to have some questions about
3 that, because we've got a couple prescriptions that
4 were picked up by various people and he probably will
5 have some follow-up questions on that. I've pretty
6 much exhausted most of the areas that I was going to
7 cover, if you can indulge him.
8 THE WITNESS: No problem.
9 MR. McGARRY: If you'd like a break --
10 THE WITNESS: No, that's fine.
11 EXAMINATION
12 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
13 Q. I'll go to the prescription. You went down to
14 Eckerd's in Largo?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Is that the one at West Bay and Clearwater-Largo
17 Road, which is on Fort Harrison, straight down
18 Fort Harrison? Which Eckerd's did you go in Largo?
19 A. It was down on Missouri.
20 Q. Down by the Wal-Mart down there?
21 A. Yeah. Because I normally had not driven down
22 there.
23 Q. Okay. Do you remember whose name the prescription
24 was in?
25 A. It was Lisa McPherson.
110
1 Q. Okay. So it was Lisa Mcpherson?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Now, when you picked it up, I heard you say that
4 you had signed for it?
5 A. Yeah. You -- any time you pick up a prescription
6 you sign.
7 Q. Okay. Did you sign your name?
8 A. Yes, I signed my name.
9 Q. Judy Goldsberry-Weber?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. How did you pay for the prescription?
12 A. Cash.
13 Q. Okay. Who gave you that?
14 A. I had my own cash. I paid for it and I was to be
15 reimbursed.
16 Q. Okay. Did you ever get reimbursed?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. If you were to get reimbursed -- did you
19 submit a bill for it?
20 A. What I -- what I normally do is, you submit the
21 receipt, and then Treasury is supposed to get a list and
22 then they tell you, you know, send it back.
23 Q. Did you submit it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. But just didn't get reimbursed?
113
1 A. They couldn't do it.
2 Q. Couldn't do it even with the lightweight drugs?
3 A. That's right. Because the philosophy is, you
4 handle the physical situation before you -- you do any
5 auditing. So if she was upset and everything, you would get
6 her calmed down and get her eating and everything before you
7 could ever do any auditing.
8 Q. Okay. While we're on that subject of auditing,
9 I've listened to several people explain it. Do you know
10 what a Sec Check is?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that's short for Security Check?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, is that some type of auditing too?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. Okay. Have you ever had one of those?
17 A. Yes. I had one after this cycle.
18 Q. After?
19 A. This cycle.
20 Q. This cycle.
21 What would be the reason they gave you a
22 Security Check after this cycle?
23 A. To see if I had done anything that was -- if I had
24 done anything or hadn't done things that would have helped
25 or had I done something --
114
1 Q. That would have harmed?
2 A. That would have harmed, yeah.
3 Q. Now, that Security Check and the results of
4 that -- who gave you that Security Check, do you remember?
5 A. OSA, Nancy Percinni.
6 Q. Nancy Percinni from OSA?
7 A. Yeah, OSA Int, International.
8 Q. There were some International people here or did
9 you have to go to Los Angeles?
10 A. Yeah, Jean Jenczh came here.
11 Q. I know Hebert Jenczh. That was his wife?
12 A. Wife, yeah. She's a trained Auditor.
13 Q. Was that your understanding?
14 A. All I know, I was on EPF. She came out and talked
15 to me and said I would get some auditing, and I got a
16 Security Check. And I know others that were on there got
17 Security Checks. This is standard --
18 Q. That were with Lisa?
19 A. It's a standard thing. Any time you got a
20 problem, you want to find out did I say something that
21 created a problem, did -- you know, it's just -- it's to
22 find out, to make sure that you're happy with, you know --
23 Q. Okay. Now, the Security Check results, would that
24 go to your PC folder?
25 A. Yes.
115
1 Q. Okay. Now, is that the only copy or would there
2 be another copy go someplace?
3 A. No, that's the only copy.
4 Q. In your PC folder?
5 A. In my PC folder.
6 Now, if I did something that resulted in ethics or
7 a Committee of Evidence or disciplinary action needs, then
8 it would go to my ethics file. And the Staff MAA would
9 create the Committee of Evidence or something.
10 Q. MAA standing for Master at Arms?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Just like the Navy term?
13 A. Yeah, just exactly like the Navy term, which is
14 the disciplinary action.
15 Q. Tell me about the Security Check. Can you explain
16 what it is, how it's done?
17 A. You're asked questions, you know, and you answer
18 them. You're on a meter.
19 Q. The E Meter?
20 A. The E Meter. On that E Meter it registers.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. You're holding two cans.
23 Q. You're holding two cans?
24 A. Uh-huh. Kind of like taking a lie detector test.
25 Q. That's what I hear a lot of.
116
1 A. Basically, it's comparative. It's actually finer
2 tuned than that, because you're -- just a thought, you don't
3 have to say anything, will register and they'll say, What
4 are you thinking?
S Q. All right. So you're put on an E Meter and you
6 hold these cans and then this -- could I have her name
7 again?
8 A. Nancy Percinni.
9 Q. Oh, Nancy.
10 A. Also Mr. Jenczh interviewed me.
11 Q. Mr. Jenczh? Hebert Jenczh?
12 A. No, she's an Officer so they're called Mister
13 whether they are --
14 Q. I'm sorry. Okay, instead of ma'am. Like in our
15 Navy we call them ma'am.
16 A. Ma'am, yeah. It's Mr. Jenczh, Mr. Jane Jenczh.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. So she came out and wanted to know what was
19 happening, what -- you know, what -- how I had been
20 involved. And got that and saw ,that there were some upsets
21 with things. And so part of the Sec Check helps to relieve
22 the upsets, the anger, whatever.
23 Q. How long did it take? How long did yours take in
24 this case?
25 A. Depends upon -- they can take two weeks, three
117
1 weeks.
2 Q. But I mean, like --
3 A. Now, that could be anywhere from a half hour to
4 two hours. Mine happened to take -- I wasn't in every day.
5 Couple of times -- the interview with Mr. Jenczh so she had
6 the data was five and a half hours straight.
7 Q. So yours was five and a half hours?
8 A. No, mine -- with -- she started it. And then the
9 Sec Check took about eight days, total of about eight hours.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. See, cause some days -- you do it till the needle
12 floats, then you stop the session. That could be 20 minutes
13 or it could have been two and a half hours or it could be
14 five hours.
15 Q. In that Sec Check, did you let your upsets as far
16 as your reference to Janice Johnson come out?
17 A. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It came out, yeah.
18 Q. Okay. Are these Sec Checks or can these
19 Sec Checks be exhausting, you know?
20 A. Exhausting how?
21 Q. Exhausting as far as similar to this deposition,
22 you know, sitting here for hours --
23 A. Oh, yeah.
24 Q. -- answering questions --
25 A. Oh, yeah.
118
1 Q. -- and becoming fatigued mentally?
2 MR. McGARRY: We're not going to be here five
3 hours.
4 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: I'm sorry.
5 A. No, but what I'm saying, it could be. But usually
6 one of the questions they ask you, Are you tired? And if
7 you start getting tired the meter starts reading
8 differently. So the Auditor will say, Are you tired? Are
9 you in pain? Are you hungry? At that point they will stop
10 the session.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Because you're going to say, Yeah, I'm -- yeah,
13 you know, you got a stomach that's growling. Oh, yeah, I am
14 hungry.
15 Q. The reason I asked this, and just so you will
16 understand, were you aware that Lisa had received a
17 Sec check just prior to her accident on the 18th?
18 A. No, I had no -- no idea.
19 Q. Okay. I was just trying to figure out --
20 A. See, the auditing, no, I don't -- we're not
21 privileged to that information.
22 Q. Okay. When Lisa came to see you in July and she
23 was having trouble -- my understanding is Lisa came from
24 Texas. Now I hear you say that she came from up north.
25 someplace.
119
1 A. She told me she had a job where she's like a sales
2 representative, so she could have come -- been sent from her
3 home office down to Texas and then from Texas arranged to
4 come over there. That was my understanding, she had some
5 kind of a -- a job where she was --
6 Q. I just asked because I found it funny, you were
7 worried about her drinking fluids, yet I understand she
8 moved here from Texas; Dallas, Texas, which I know it gets
9 as hot as it does in Clearwater, Florida.
10 A. But they don't have the humidity we have here.
11 Q. So they would be even dryer, so they would have to
12 drink more?
13 A. Well, actually, it depends. You might drink --
14 the humidity here kind of evaporates faster than a drier
15 heat.
16 Q. All right.
17 A. You would notice the heat more in -- in Clearwater
18 than you would in Dallas.
19 Q. Than you would in Dallas, okay.
20 A. And see, she was in a location where she was out
21 in air conditioning more in that area, where here she was in
22 areas where she wasn't in an air conditioned place as much.
23 Q. All right. In July when she came to talk to
24 you, could you describe her to me, height, weight, hair
25 color, eye color?
120
1 A. Gee. Eyes; I don't remember. Brownish, I think.
2 She had brownish hair.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. Light, what we used to call a dark -- a dishwater
5 blond.
6 Q. All right. I remember that term. I'm old enough.
7 A. Okay. She was what, about five eight.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. She weighed about 140 pounds.. She was very
10 athletic. She liked to go running. She used to run. And
11 this was the thing with -- Suzanne would tell me in --
12 afterwards, she would run from Fort Harrison out to
13 Clearwater Beach and back. She loved to run early in the
14 morning or just about sunset, because she was a very
15 athletic -- at Fort Harrison we had a weight -- a fitness
16 center and she was forever going down there. She was not
17 one heavily into the swimming pool, because the chlorine
18 affected her hair. But she liked the weight machines and
19 the things she did. And she was very conscious about her
20 weight.
21 Q. Did you ever examine her with, say, underwear on
22 or no clothing on? Did you ever get that opportunity --
23 A. No.
24 Q. -- to see her with limited clothing?
25 A. No. The -- she wore, you know, a halter top and
121
1 shorts.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. But I could tell -- I mean, they were form
4 fitting, but they weren't -- she didn't have flabby skin.
5 She didn't have the hanging -- she was very -- to me -- she
6 kept thinking she was overweight at 140 pounds at five foot
7 eight. I thought she was very --
8 Q. Right?
9 A. Just the right proportions.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. And it was not -- she was not overly concerned
12 like an anorexic or that type of thing, if that's what
13 you're heading at.
14 Q. No. What I was going to get to, one of the
15 paramedics described her, one happened to see her walking
16 down the street naked, she would have weighed 155 pounds,
17 150 pounds, she was a healthy girl. Is that your expertise,
18 in looking at her as a nurse --
19 A. She was not overweight.
20 Q. -- she could go 150 pounds?
21 A. Yeah, but it was firm and fully packed. I mean,
22 it was not a sloppy, if you moved that it jiggled and you
23 stopped moving and it still jiggles for ten minutes.
24 Q. At the ceremony, which would be later on after
25 the -- you talked to her and recommended Dr. Decuypere or
122
1 she got Dr. Decuypere?
2 A. She got Dr. Decuypere.
3 Q. At the ceremony, did she look the same?
4 A. You mean at graduation?
5 Q. Five eight, 140 pounds, she still look okay?
6 A. She might have gained a little bit. She might be
7 between 140 and 150.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. But I mean, it still was not chunky, it was not
10 out of proportionate really for her.
11 Q. Now, at Morton Plant when you got there, she's in
12 a hospital gown and she gets dressed. What about height and
13 weight then, same?
14 A. Well, she wasn't as -- as heavy that -- you know,
15 it was hard to say because this was a shirt. The gown, I
16 couldn't really see, all I was being able to look at was the
17 arms. - -
18 Q. You didn't notice any big change in her then? You
19 didn't make the observation, So, Lisa, you been on a diet,
20 you lost a lot of weight?
21 A. No. No, I didn't see that.
22 Q. Now, I talked to Dr. Lovett and he does indicate
23 that he -- I don't know if he's exaggerating; he says he has
24 treated thousands of Scientologists for bumps, bruises,
25 cuts --
123
1 A. Oh, yeah.
2 Q. -- broken arms, broken bones, everything in the
3 world, and he said that he had dealt with you a lot in -- in
4 helping all of those people.
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Now, I found it interesting in your testimony
7 today before that you knew the rooms, you know, the fast
8 track and all of those rooms and everything else. So you
9 were very familiar with this place?
10 A. Well, they used to laugh and tell me I needed to
11 be on --
12 Q. Staff there?
13 A. -- staff with them there because I was -- I mean,
14 there were times I might take three in a day, so ...
15 Q. Okay. What I'm getting at is, the so-called
16 proverbial trip to New Port Richey, that's what I'm coming
17 around to, it's been quoted that it was not unusual to take
18 a person and put them in the car and drive them to
19 New Port Richey to Dr. Minkoff. Now, everybody I talked to,
20 that's not so.
21 A. That's not so.
22 Q. It was normal for you to take a parishioner right.
23 to Morton Plant?
24 A. Morton Plant or Suncoast Hospital.
25 Q. Which is a little south of Morton Plant?
124
1 A. Yeah, they're closer.
2 My -- my thing was, if they were physically ill
3 and needed -- like one gentleman fell off -- hurt his --
4 broke his hip, fell and broke his hip. I loaded him in my
5 truck and took him to Morton Plant Hospital. I mean, I
6 wanted to get the fastest m1edical attention.
7 Q. I know that you don't have the facts to -- but in
8 your expertise as the MLO and a Scientologist, and I'm only
9 relying on that Scientology technology and things, and your
10 office as MLO and your nursing experience, why do you think
11 that she was driven 40, 45 minutes to New Port Richey from
12 Fort Harrison Hotel?
13 A. The only thing I can figure out was Dr. Minkoff
14 was on duty at that hospital and -- I don't know.
15 Q. All right. I'm going to put you in a tougher spot
16 too because you have that expertise. Lisa -- it's described
17 to me that Lisa's gaunt -- do you know what
18 hippocratica facies means? It's a definition used --
19 medical term used for that hollowed look.
20 A. Hollowed look.
21 Q. All right. 26 years as a policeman, I've seen it
22 a lot, hippocratica facies.
23 Down to 108 pounds, okay, bruises, contusions,
24 possibly bites, which are still -- we're still arguing
25 about. You see her, are you going to put her in a van and
125
1 drive her to New Port Richey as the MLO at Fort Harrison?
2 A. Me personally?
3 Q. Yes as the MLO, you're coming in, you're going
4 to go, We got to get her to the hospital --
5 A. No.
6 Q. -- you're going to go to Morton Plant?
7 A. I'm taking her to the fastest place.
8 Q. I know I'm putting you in a tough spot, but I know
9 you're the expert.
10 A. What I would have done, I would have called the
11 doctor. To me, that's against any ...
12 Q. Okay. In the previous interview with
13 Detective Sudler you talked about your job was to, as a
14 Medical Liaison Officer, was to get these people to the
15 medical doctor for full work-ups, blood, x-rays, things like
16 that.
17 A. Well, whatever was needed to see --
18 Q. To take care of them?
19 A. To take care of -- to see if there was a physical
20 situation that -- underlying that could be a cause of this
21 problem.
22 Q. All right. Now, you looked up at the board at
23 Morton Plant and got some indication from the board that
24 Lisa had blood tests and had a chest x-ray or whatever.
25 A. I --
126
1 Q. Is that --
2 A. She had x-rays, because it had x-rays and there
3 both a red and a green.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. And the blood work there was a red and a green.
6 Q. All right. Now, when you executed this form or
7 witnessed this form here, were you aware of any of the
8, results of those tests?
9 A. The only thing that Dr. Lovett could tell me was
10 that he could find nothing that would cause her to have to
11 be admitted for observation.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. So technically, this form would not have been
14 done. Normally, if you're not going to admit the person --
15 Q. You're going to release them?
16 A. -- you just release them. He signs a release,
17 which, you know, dah, dah, dah, you know, he sets -- they
18 have a computer-generated list of whatever's happened to the
19 person and it's -- it's signed.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. We never go through this -- this cycle.
22 Q. Would you be surprised to find out that she did
23 not have any blood tests and she did not have any x-rays and
24 she didn't have anything other than a physical examination?
25 A. I would be, yeah, from what he said.
127
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. Because I had specifically asked him, you know, if
3 she had had, you know, anything that was causing this. And
4 he said he'd done a full examination and work-up. And so I
5 mean, I was led to believe that --
6 Q. She was okay?
7 A. Yeah. Because he was not willing to -- there was
8 nothing he could demonstrate that was a cause.
9 You know, I would say a normal situation, if
10 somebody's involved in a car accident, they usually draw
11 blood to see if there's internal bleeding. You can see by
12 the variation in two cells, the white blood cell and the red
13 blood cell. Now, if you've got somebody who's had a car
14 accident, it's expedient to do this. If they're
15 demonstrating like this, that is not a normal activity, you
16 check -- you'd run a skull series to see if there's --
17 Q. I think in talking to him, he just simply
18 interviewed the paramedics, who said she had a minor kind of
19 hole in the grille of her car where she drove into the foot
20 of the outboard motor.
21 A. Oh.
22 Q. And she was seat belted in. And since the
23 paramedics saw her naked, there were no bruises on her. So
24 his prognosis, like yours would be, you'd investigate, find
25 that out, say, why do we need to do x-rays, why do we need
128
1 to do blood work, I guess that's what happened. She didn't
2 have any tests at Morton Plant. I was surprised you brought
3 up the fact that you saw something on the board --
4 A. Well, I had seen these indicators. So perhaps
5 what he had done was put it that they didn't need to be
6 done. These are just progress, so that it gives me an idea
7 of what -- how fast I can get them out. Because if he's
8 sitting, he's drawn blood and he's waiting for the results,
9 he's not going to let her go before he gets those results.
10 So that's -- he -- he didn't give me that privilege. All I
11 saw was those -- those spacers on the board.
12 Q. Okay. In doing some research I found, you know,
13 the big controversy with the Church of Scientology and
14 psychiatrists. And apparently there's some picketing of
15 psychiatrists for their behavior and Prozac and all those
16 things.
17 Now, the person making the decision at
18 Morton Plant, okay, whether to keep her or not under the
19 Baker Act, do you know who that was?
20 A. Mr. Price.
21 Q. Okay. Mr. Price, the psychiatric nurse?
22 A. The psychiatric nurse.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. But this is what Lovett told me. He said, be damn
25 thankful the police did not pick her up, because I could
129
1 have Baker Acted her. The ambulance people picked her up
2 walking on the street, not the police.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. So that was where he made that distinction to me,
5 that I could take it away from you where you couldn't do
6 this if the police had picked her up.
7 Q. Okay. Why was Janice Johnson made your Senior
8 when she came to --
9 A. I have no idea. That -- I'm not privileged to
10 that.
11 Q. Were you aware that she was a medical doctor in
12 another state?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. At the time she took over for you as being
15 the Senior?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. What about Laura Arrunada, what was your
18 understanding of her background?
19 A. I knew that she had in Mexico attended some --
20 some -- her -- all of her papers were in Spanish and I don't
21 read Spanish, but I had been told that she had, with this
22 Lily Semagie who had lived with us, that she had some
23 medical training that was recognized in Mexico, but would
24 not be recognized here.
25 Q. Here in the United States?
130
1 A. In the United States.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. So I had told both of them that they could not use
4 the distinction of doctor, they could not say, well, I'm
5 doctor so, and so, because they didn't have those licenses.
6 It's just like I never on anything, I never used nurse or
7 respiratory therapist, because I did not have that.
8 Q. In July -- were you aware Lisa stayed at the
9 Fort Harrison in July or August of '95?
10 A. Yes, uh-huh.
11 Q. Okay. Was she there then for -- was she having
12 some PTS problems then and was she -- was that the beginning
13 of maybe one of these successful isolation watches?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Could you tell us a little bit about that?
16 A. That's when -- when I originally met her.
17 Q. Saw her and made the recommendation to --
18 A. To see Dr. Decuypere.
19 Q. You said that she told you that things were
20 bothering her and we kind of skipped over that.
21 Do you remember what things were bothering her?
22 A. Well, the only things that she told me that was
23 bothering her was the fact that she wanted to do some
24 services, some additional services, and that she had to go
25 back and get it cleared. It's like she had cleared it with
131
1 her work for, you know, like I said, four weeks or whatever
2 she had cleared, I didn't have specific, you know, dates,
3 but that she had to clear it with, her work to extend her
4 time here at Clearwater.
5 Q. All right. Do you know how long she was there?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Do you know what room she was staying in?
8 A. No. She always came over to see me in the
9 MLO Office.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. I never went to her room.
12 Q. Did she have any Security Guards with her when she
13 came to see you in July, was anybody following her around?
14 A. Suzanne -- Suzanne came over a couple of times
15 with her, but no other --
16 MR. McGARRY: Suzanne who?
17 THE WITNESS: Green.
18 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
19 Q. All right. I guess what I'm getting at, in the
20 stay for the 17 days in November there were Security Guards
21 outside of her room.
22 A. Oh, yeah?
23 Q. She couldn't leave.
24 A. I don't know that.
25 Q. According to testimony, she couldn't leave.
132
1 Now, was that the case in July too when she was
2 there?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Okay. Did you ever see her walk in by herself to
5 your office?
6 A. Not when she was on that situation. She was
7 either with Suzanne, was the only -- or somebody. But I
8 never knew any other thing. And it was very successful.
9 Q. Have you ever come up with why -- why you took
10 care of her in July and why you were able to take care of in
11 July, but not able to take care of her in November?
12 A. I have no idea. See, that would come from the CS.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. They would know what -- what they were doing or
15 what actions they were doing. I only took care of the body.
16 Q. Did you ever talk to Dr. Decuypere afterwards
17 about all this Lisa stuff
18 A. No.
19 Q. -- since she was at the hospital and signed this?
20 A. I haven't talked to Dr. Decuypere since. In fact,
21 that was the last time I had any dealings with
22 Dr. Decuypere, was that night.
23 Q. Is it normal for the MLO to -- on these Type III
24 personalities that end up in hospitals, I find it curious
25 your statement from Fontana, Humberto Fontana, find out
133
1 what's happening and -- and get her out at the hospital. Is
2 that a normal --
3 A. Normally -- it was so unusual for me to go into
4 that hospital and to see anybody else there. I've taken
5 hundreds of them, like you said, thousands, I'm the only one
6 who goes.
7 Q. Right.
8 That's what Dr. Lovett says too, if you want to
9 find that interesting, he said he couldn't understand why
10 they had so many people.
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. And only in his defense a little bit, you know, in
13 talking to him, for your benefit, is that he felt a little
14 overwhelmed. You talked about you didn't know why he was
15 being so aggressive to you.
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Was it an overwhelming looking situation there?
18 A. I found out -- I think Humberto -- this is my
19 opinion.
20 Q. Okay. That's good. That's what I'm asking you.
21 A. The -- with Humberto having been there, he had
22 talked with Lovett first, so whatever -- however his --
23 his and his personality can become very overbearing.
24 Q. Do you have pamphlets -- my understanding is
25 that --
134
1 A. Oh, yeah.
2 Q. -- Humberto was handling pamphlets out about
3 psychiatrists abuse.
4 A. Of their patients.
5 Q. Yeah. Actually, abusing their female patients and
6 things.
7 A. Yeah, there is a pamphlet. I don't usually take
8 any of that for the Church.
9 Q. You stay on the medical side?
10 A. Yeah, I stay on the medical side. And if he had
11 done that, that would explain Lovett's behavior.
12 Q. Demeanor, yeah.
13 A. And also would explain some other things. Which
14 always made my job a little difficult, when I have them do
15 that, because then I'd have to see what had been said and
16 see --
17 MR. McGARRY: Calm it down?
18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, calm it down.
19 A. And it just didn't work to have somebody come in
20 with this forceful action when it didn't need to be that
21 forceful.
22 So that's what -- that's why Emma couldn't calm
23 her down, because Emma didn't have the --
24 Q. Relationship?
25 A. -- the relationship. Emma could never get passed
135
1 that door. They always made Emma stay out in the waiting
2 room. And I always went with them and sat with them in the
3 emergency room, which was the first time that had ever been
4 able to be done.
5 Q. So it's your testimony that it was -- and I don't
6 want to put words in your mouth, but it was highly unusual
7 to have Alain Kartuzinski, the Senior Case Supervisor for
8 Flag, Humberto Fontana, pretty high up in OSA in legal
9 affairs, his wife, Judy Fontana, was there, she's in legal
10 too --
11 A. No, Judy wasn't. Annie Mora was.
12 Q. Oh, Annie Mora.
13 Okay. Annie Mora was there. She's from OSA?
14 A. Office of Special Affairs.
15 Q. And Emma Schamehorn.
16 A. Okay. What's going -- yeah, that's what -- this
17 was the first time I'd ever run into it. Now, I have had
18 Security tell me -- see, my job was always, I would call
19 Security when I'd take somebody to the hospital, I would
20 call Security, alert Security who I had, what was going on
21 and that was the end of it. I kept them informed when we'd
22 leave. But to get to the hospital and have the welcoming
23 committee I had was -- it had never happened before.
24 Q. Now, in those watches, isolation watches you
25 worked on, the one like the three or four days or the one
136
1 for three and a half weeks --
2 A. I didn't work on them.
3 Q. You didn't work on them, you just were aware of
4 them?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Okay. All right. Then I'll have to ask this as
7 to your knowledge as far as an MLO and Hubbard technology:
8 Who is responsible for that person's medical care?
9 Now, I understand that --
10 A. Technically, the MLO is responsible to see to it
11 that there is some medical handlings, if needed. But the --
12 like I said, the doctor of record that I knew -- my -- my
13 thing would be, Security would tell me there is a watch, to
14 get the vitamins, because Security would run it with
15 Dr. Minkoff. Dr. Minkoff might call me on occasional times,
16 Judy, I need you to go get such and such or whatever.
17 But Dr. Minkoff is the doctor of record and he
18 should be directing. Here is -- the Case Supervisor is
19 handling the auditing or the spiritual side and physical --
20 Security would be needing to get whoever needs to be taking
21 care of that person, but they need to be liaisoning with
22 whoever's needed. Now, Security would come get me if -- you
23 know, come check this person. As far as a Medical Liaison
24 Officer going in, physically see that person every day, no,
25 it didn't happen.
137
1 Q. Okay. I guess my next question would be --
2 A. People on watch would contact us if they needed.
3 Q. To your knowledge, who could call this thing off?
4 Apparently, we know now from after the fact that it wasn't
5 called off, but who had the responsibility or the power
6 don't want to say the power, but who had the authorization
7 to call this thing off and send her home or send her to her
8 mom's?
9 A. That would be Paul Kellerhaus and Alain, the CS
10 and the Security.
11 Q. And Security.
12 A. Because -- Security, to make sure of the security
13 and they're okay.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. So that would be Paul Kellerhaus and/or whoever
16 was operating out of that, because he's the head of
17 Security.
18 Q. Did you write a report, specifically a
19 Knowledge Report on your conversations with Janice Johnson?
20 A. No, I didn't.
21 Q. Okay. Should you have?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. By the tech you should have?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. You should have wrote a report?
138
1 A. Yeah. It was now a tech situation and I didn't do
2 it.
3 Q. Was that part of getting into trouble? Some of
4 the things, I guess the EPF, they said you weren't in
5 trouble for, but now you're EPF.
6 A. No, because I passed the security -- the Sec Check
7 and I didn't -- because I notified, by a phone call, I put
8 people on notice.
9 Q. And those were Judy Fontana?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And quickly, just why would that -- why would it
12 be Judy Fontana?
13 A. Because she was the Legal Officer at the time.
14 That was her job.
15 Q. And she's stationed in OSA too, Judy?
16 A. Yeah, uh-huh.
17 Q. Okay. In the conversation with Alice and
18 Joan Stevens, I think they had black eyes or something, you
19 said Alice had called to ask you a question?
20 A. Yeah. I didn't talk -- I didn't treat Alice for a
21 physical illness. Alice had called to ask me -- and she
22 didn't tell me that she was on the watch and I didn't put
23 two and two together. Because Alice is the Librarian, a lot
24 of people will come and ask her questions. And so she's
25 kind of a -- a point of --
139
1 Q. Contact?
2 A. -- contact. So I didn't put her together as on
3 the watch. Many people are -- will ask to look at medical
4 books and things that are in the library.
5 And so Alice called and asked me whether some
6 of -- what are some of the -- if a person is dehydrated,
7 what are some of the signs.
8 Q. Do you remember when that was?
9 A. Well, it -- sometime after -- it would have been
10 about ten days or so after I had seen --
11 Q. Lisa's accident?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. That's a good gauge point. We can use her
14 accident and then say ten days, approximately ten days
15 after.
16 A. Yeah, approximately.
17 She didn't say in extreme dehydration or anything,
18 it was, Do they normally run a temperature? I said, They
19 can. You know, look it -- you it up. Do they become
20 disoriented? I said, Any time you become dehydrated that's
21 a -- disorientation is one of the things. I said, I suggest
22 they get to a doctor.
23 Q. Did you tell her that --
24 A. I --
25 Q. -- do you remember?
l4O
1 A. Yeah. I mean, I said, If, you know, if you're
2 really concerned, if somebody's concerned about it, I would
3 recommend that they see a doctor --
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. -- before it gets worse.
6 Q. Can you remember specifically, I know it's been a
7 long time, but could you remember any other symptoms she
8 gave you in the questioning? I mean, that's what she's kind
9 of asking you, you know, she was -- I'm taking it as since
10 she's on the watch, she's --
11 A. She wrote a KR on it.
12 Q. Knowledge Report?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Alice wrote a Knowledge Report?
15 A. Yeah. A very lengthy one, I found out later.
16 Q. Who was that against, do you remember?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Because they usually are about somebody or
19 something bad.
20 A. It would be -- I -- it would be in her ethics
21 file.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. I believe whoever it was directed to, whether it
24 was directed to the entire -- sometimes you can write a
25 Knowledge Report on the MLO Office and it gets put in every
141
1 one of our files.
2 Q. That's like at the police department.
3 A. Yeah. You know, somebody --
4 Q. God forbid if you were at a bar fight when
5 somebody complained, everybody gets a note in their file
6 that they were there.
7 A. Yeah. So then you have -- then you can answer it.
8 So when you get this KR, then you have to write what you
9 know on this KR, and then it goes in your file so that you
10 get the whole picture. Yeah, I was there and I didn't dah,
11 dah, dah, or I -- you know what every -- but it was not put
12 on me, so I know it wasn't to the whole MLO file -- to the
13 whole MLO Office.
14 Q. Okay. You brought -- you talked about cal mag.
15 A. Calcium magnesium.
16 Q. Calcium magnesium. Let's switch that out --
17 science wasn't my strong suit -- but magnesium chloride.
18 Same thing?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Tell me about magnesium chloride, whatever you
21 know.
22 A. You have your chlorhydrate -- I'd have to look and
23 check. I'd have to get the pharmacology book out.
24 Q. Cal mag?
25 A. Cal mag is calcium, magnesium and vinegar. What
142
1 it does is calm the muscles down. If you're giving somebody
2 cal mag, it helps mellow them out, it helps to sleep, it
3 pulls off --
4 Q. I've been told by the Medical Examiner in
5 questioning her about magnesium chloride that the magnesium
6 chloride would be a muscle relaxant.
7 A. Sure. It would be over and above the cal mag.
8 Maybe the cal mag wasn't strong enough, and so -- your
9 calcium magnesium basically is a muscle-relaxer, and you're
10 looking at the heart muscle especially, to keep it from
11 going erratic.
12 Q. Okay. Now, Janice Johnson wrote a report that
13 indicated she gave her magnesium chloride IM. IM being?
14 A. Intramuscular.
15 Q. That would be a shot?.
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Did you, in all of your dealings as MLO with the
18 Church of Scientology, ever have access to the liquid
19 magnesium chloride injectable?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Okay. Tell me about it.
22 A. Dr. Carrow had ordered magnesium for another
23 person who was not eating, and we were giving her -- she was
24 a patient of Dr. Carrow's and she was getting an IV of
25 magnesium.
143
1 Q. Magnesium chloride?
2 A. He had vitamins, he had magnesium and B-l2.
3 Q. Did you have to get that by prescription?
4 A. Yes. I had to go to Dr. Carrow's office.
5 Q. To get a prescription for it --
6 A. Well, he had --
7 Q. -- for the IV?
8 A. He had it. He had all of the stuff.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. He would give -- he would mix it up and then he
11 had given me several to -- of the vials of it. And he would
12 give me how much to mix into the Ringer's lactate. Because
13 I had been in his office and he had observed me, and as long
14 as I would -- he had it written out, so many milligrams or
15 cc's of each of these items that were to be put into this
16 IV. And I followed that and reported to him.
17 Q. Can you spell his name, Dr. Carrow?
18 A. Donald Carrow, C-a-r-r-o-w.
19 Q. C-a-r-r-o-w.
20 And is he still practicing here?
21 A. Yes, he's practicing here in Clearwater?
22 Q. Do you have any knowledge -- is he an M.D.?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you have any knowledge that he was involved in
25 Lisa's case? I mean, have you heard that at all?
144
1 A. No, I've never heard it.
2 Q. Okay. Did you ever have any conversations in the
3 hospital, either with Dr. Decuypere or without her, about
4 Lisa being crazy and, you know, we'll kind of take care of
5 her and get her out of here? Was that ever brought up?
6 A. No, I never did.
7 Q. Any previous patients that maybe they might have
8 said, well, you know, they're crazy, we're going to get them
9 out of here and ship them back home?
10 A. No, unh-unh.
11 Q. Okay. If you were the MLO on Lisa's case, could
12 you yourself just decide, okay, let's go, we're going to
13 take her to the hospital or would that have to be okayed
14 with somebody?
15 A. Technically, technically the MLO is supposed to
16 decide. I -- I have gotten in trouble because I say they're
17 going, I don't care what you say, they're going, I'm going
18 to do it, and I pack them off and do it. Usually --
19 Q. As the MLO, who would you notify? You would
20 notify the CS?
21 A. Security --
22 Q. Security and the CS that you're going?
23 A. -- and the CS that we're going. Wait a minute,
24 there's something wrong here and ...
25 Q. I only have one more question, honest.
145
1 As to your experience, who pays all these bills?
2 Lisa came there as a Public member.
3 A. Then she pays the bills.
4 Q. So she pays the bills.
5 So the Church of Scientology would bill Lisa and
6 her account for all the stay at the hotel and the food and
7 everything?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. What would happen, and I only...can ask you for a
10 guess, but what would happen in the case that Lisa's account
11 runs out of money for food? What would you happen, do you
12 know?
13 A. I -- I've never been involved in that, so I
14 couldn't tell you.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. I do know that on her -- on her I couldn't say,
17 but others, you know, things -- there's some leeway.
18 Q. Okay.
19 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: That's the last
20 question I have.
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. McGARRY:
23 Q. Is Suzanne Green still a member of the Church, do
24 you know? I've been told no.
25 A. No, she's left the Church.
