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On This Day
| Date | Title |
|---|---|
| 1986 | Conditions Order |
| 1986 | TMO |
| 1995 | Ft. Harrison - Room Assignment Sheet, Tue 14 Nov 1995 |
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Random Document
Sworn Statement of Brian J. Anderson
| Date: | August 14, 1997 |
| Pages: | 162 |
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
IN RE:
INVESTIGATION ORIGINAL
STATEMENT OF: BRIAN J. ANDERSON
DATE: August 14, 1997
TIME: Began: 10:35 a.m.
Ended: 2:00 p.m.
PLACE: Criminal Justice Center
Office of the State Attorney
Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida
REPORTED BY: Ruth M. Martin, CSR, CP, RNR
Registered Merit Reporter
Notary Public
State of Florida at Large
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
Office of the State Attorney
3 Criminal Justice Complex, Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida 33760
4 Attorney for State of Florida
5 ROBERT P. POLLI, ESQUIRE
Robert P. Polli, P.A.
6 Barnett Bank Plaza, Suite 1130
101 East Kennedy Boulevard
7 Tampa, Florida 33602
Attorney for the Witness
8
ALSO PRESENT:
9
WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
10 JORGE E. CARRASQUILLO, Detective
City of clearwater Police Department
11
12
13
14
15
16
17 INDEX
18 EXAMINATION PAGE
19 BY MR. McGARRY 3
BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS 128
20 BY DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO 156
21
22 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 162
23
3
2 The deponent herein,
2 BRIAN J. ANDERSON,
3 being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
5 examined and testified as follows:
6 MR. McGARRY: Would you like to put something
7 on the record?
8 MR. POLLI: Thank you.
9 My name is Bob Polli. I.represent
10 Mr. Anderson in this interview.
11 Mr. Anderson here is pursuant to an
12 investigative subpoena that we have been provided with
13 by the State Attorney's Office. I've explained to
14 Mr. Anderson what Chapter 914 provides in the way of
.1 protections. He's fully been informed of those
16 protections and the responsibilities that go along with
17 that immunity protection and he is ready to proceed
18 according. Thank you.
19 MR. McGARRY: Thank you. We'll begin.
20 EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. McGARRY:
22 Q. Your name for the record.
23 A. Brian J. Anderson.
24 Q. And your birth date?
25 A. X, 1948.
4
1 Q. And where do you live?
2 A. At X Clearwater.
3 Q. Is that a house?
4 A. It's an apartment complex for Staff housing.
5 Q. Okay. Do you live in this apartment -- is this by
6 yourself or do you have a roommate?
7 A. My wife.
8 Q. Wife, okay.
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. And how long have you lived in Clearwater?
11 A. Since -- for three years. Since August, `94.
12 Q. And where did you live before that?
13 A. Los Angeles and Hollywood.
14 Q. And when did you join the Church of Scientology?
15 A. September, 1972. Well, I joined Staff of the
16 church in 1972.
17 Q. Okay. And that was in California?
18 A. No, no. St. Louis, Missouri.
19 Q. All right. And sometime after that you moved to
20 California?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. Okay. Do you remember approximately when that
23 was? No big deal.
24 A. Yeah. It would have been in 19 -- well, I've been
25 there -- I first moved -- I've been there twice, but I first
5
1 moved there in 1981, late 1981.
2 Q. All right. And you were Staff there in
3 California?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What was your responsibility there?
6 A. I worked in different areas, but prima!rily it was
7 as a Manager over -- I was in an administrative position as
8 a Manager for the Church.
9 Q. All right. And you continued to do that until
10 August of `94?
11 A. No, until 1988. And then I went to Washington,
12 D.C., to the Church there. Worked in the Public Affairs
13 Office that we had in Washington, D.C. -- we have in
14 Washington, D.C.
15 Q. Don't have it anymore?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. It's still there?
18 A. It's still there, yeah.
19 And that was until in 1990, and then I went back
20 to Los Angeles.
21 Q. All right. And what did you do when you went, back
22 to L.A.?
23 A. I was an administrator again. I worked in the
24 external affairs area, and I was in charge of one of our
25 social reform activities, which was dealing with
6
1 investigating and cleaning up abuses in the psychiatric
2 field, as an administrator. In other words, I would
3 initiate programs and campaigns that we would run
4 internationally.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. And that was until I came here in `94.
7 Q. All right. And whose choice was it to come here
8 in August of `94?
9 A. Mine.
10 Q. Okay. Did you ask to be transferred here?
11 A. Well, the proposal was offered to me, `cause they
12 wanted -- I had -- I had experience in working in public
13 affairs for the Church, and I was asked in Los Angeles if I
14 wanted -- if I'd be willing to -- the idea was somebody
15 else's, but the choice was put to me if I wanted to come to
16 Clearwater. And I said yeah, I'd transfer to Clearwater.
17 Q. And then became in charge of -- what is,
18 essentially, your title now?
19 A. I'm in charge of Public Affairs right now, the
20 Public Affairs Division, where we run all the community
21 affairs activities for the Church here in Clearwater.
22 Q. So specifically what is your title right now?
23 Has it been all along the same title since August
24 of `94?
25 A. No. In August, `94, I came here, I was the
7
1 Commanding Officer for the Office of Special Affairs for the
2 Church in Clearwater.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. And then I'm now the Public Affairs Director.
5 Q. All right. Well, let's break that down.
6 In November of 1995, what was your position in the
7 Church here in Clearwater?
8 A. I was -- in November `95 I was the
9 Commanding Officer for Office of Special Affairs.
10 Q. All right. Now, is there a position above that in
11 OSA?
12 A. No, not -- not here.
13 Q. That's,the head position at OSA here in
14 Clearwater?
15 A. Right. Right.
16 Q. All right. And the public relations position that
17 you now enjoy, is that a position that is a comparable
18 position to what you had as far as seniority or is it --
19 A. Well, it's similar, only one --
20 Q. -- just in a different place?
21 A. No, it's one step down. In other words, my
22 supervisor now is the Commanding Officer of OSA.
23 Q. Andwho is that?
24 A. Ben Shaw.
25 Q. Ben?
8
1 A. Ben Shaw.
2 Q. And when did Mr. Shaw take that position?
3 A. It was early this year. I forget exact -- I don't
4 know exactly, forget exactly when.
5 Q. And you moved to public relations, correct?
6 A. I moved to public relations in -- I assumed the
7 post in early June, 1996.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. And it was somebody else who had -- who was
10 holding the CO position until Ben --
11 Q. Who was that?
1 A. Humberto Fontana.
13 Q. Where is he now?
14 A. He's in Los Angeles.
15 Q. And what is Mrs. Cook's position in the Church
16 right now?
17 A. She runs all the deliveries. She's in charge of
18 all the delivery. The title is Captain for like the
19 Service Organization, but she's in charge of running the
20 organization.
21 Q. Did she come from California also?
22 A. I'm not sure where she's from.
23 Q. How long has she been around?
24 A. She was here before I got here. I'm not sure --
25 Q. She was here during this Lisa McPherson thing?
9
1 A. Uh-huh, yes.
2 Q. Yes, she has to hear the answers audibly.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. So give me your duties, if you would, briefly for
5 Office of Special Affairs Commanding Officer in 1995.
6 A. Well, I would be in charge of the external matters
7 that the Church deals with, immigration matters, any
8 relations, anything we have ongoing with our attorneys,
9 legal matters, public affairs, community. affairs activities.
10 We have a lot of community affairs programs, and that all
11 comes under that office.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. Like external facing duties.
14 Q. Okay. When did you first meet Lisa McPherson, if
15 you ever did?
16 A. I never did.
17 Q. Okay. Did you know who she was without meeting
18 her?
19 A: Yes. There was a time when we were running the --
20 we were doing this Winter Wonderland project. She was in
21 the ninety -- well, we've done it each year. In the `95
22 Winter Wonderland is when I first heard her name. She was
23 one of the volunteers in the Winter Wonderland.
24 Q. Wasn't that Benetta Slaughter's program?
25 A. She was helping on it. In 1995 she was one of the
10
1 main volunteers that was helping to organize the whole
2 thing.
3 Q. I was under the assumption she was putting on that
4 Winter Wonderland.
5 A. In `94 she wasn't -- she was one of the
6 volunteers, but it came under the purview of my office. But
7 Benetta Slaughter was --
8 Q. Was the point person for the Winter Wonderland?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And Lisa McPherson worked for Benetta?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Benetta is not Staff?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Has she ever been Staff?
15 A. I don't know. I don't know. I've never -- I've
16 never known her to be Staff.
17 Q. Okay. What does she do other than help you with
18 the Winter Wonderland thing? What is her business?
19 A. She runs -- she's one of the co-owners, I think,
20 at AMC Publishing in Clearwater.
21 Q. All right. Were you aware that Lisa McPherson
22 worked there for her?
23 A. At that time, I don't recall if I knew that or
24 not. I know she was a volunteer on the Winter Wonderland
25 project, but -- and I knew Benetta knew her, I didn't know
11
1 if she knew her just because she was a volunteer or because
2 she worked for her.
3 Q. I won't get too far afield.
4 You're saying Benetta Slaughter owns that business
5 with her husband?
6 A. I think she's a co-owner. That's my
7 understanding.
8 Q. Okay. And that business does what, publish
9 things?
10 A. Yeah. They work with the insurance industry.
11 They do publishing work for the insurance industry.
12 Q. All right. I don't want to spend -- this could be
13 a lengthy interview we do here, but I don't -- I need a few
14 little background areas as far as the hierarchy is concerned
15 in the Church, because as you might well guess, as your
16 lawyer has probably told you, it's pretty complicated for us
17 to follow.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. At the time I understand that either Arthur Baxter
20 or Paul Kellerhals was in charge of Security. Now, I
21 understand there's more than one, and it's been changed
22 since then multiple times, but there were kind of two
23 separate divisions, and they would not necessarily switch
24 hats, but for a period of time one would call the other
25 Senior and then there was a period of time where the other
12
1 one would call the other Senior.
2 I mean, they were actually -- does that
3 essentially kind of describe their relationship, they were
4 both kind of high up in the Security system, but one of them
5 was in one department and one of them might have been in
6 another department?
7 A. Yeah. I think Paul -- as I recall, I think Paul
8 was Senior. Maybe not in every single point, but I think
9 for the most part he was, yeah.
10 Q. For the most part?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. All right. When did you become aware that there
13 was a problem with Lisa McPherson? And I use that term
14 loosely, "a problem," but I mean, she -- she ended up in
15 your building.
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. When did you become aware of that?
18 A. When I heard that she, had been taken to
19 Morton Plant Hospital in November.
20 Q. Okay. Who told you that, if you can remember?
21 A. Y eah, I -- as I -- I think it was a call from one
22 of the Security staff. I don't know who it might have been.
23 I don't know if it was Arthur or who, but it was a call, and
24 I think it -- it was either through one of my staff or
25 directly to me, I forget. This was close to two years ago
13
1 now. But it was a call that had come in that she had been
2 taken down to Morton Plant by -- by -- I think it was told
by the police at the time.
4 Q. Okay. Why would you get that call?
5 A. Well-- -
6 Q. If you know.
7 A. Yeah., It would be of concern to us as
8 Scientologists in the area if someone was taken to
9 Morton Plaflt under the possibility of being committed under
10 the Baker Act.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. That would be of concern. I'd be interested in
13 that.
14 Q. Right. Because I know your position on --
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. -- psychiatry and all that with the mental
17 problems.
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Your position is you guys aren't -- how would I
20 put that? You don't see eye to eye with the latest in
21 American psychiatric programs?
22 A. Well, let me -- let me just tell you what the
23 concern would be. There's a good chance, in that setting,
24 that someone could be given abusive treatment, either -- by
25 "abusive" I mean electroshock or mind altering destructive
14
2 treatment.
2 Q. Down the way, not obviously the night this
3 occurred, you're talking about down the line if she were to
4 be committed under that circumstance?
5 A. Exactly.
6 Q. You were thinking that ultimately could have
7 appened to her?
8 A. Exactly.
9 Q. And that was your concern?
10 A. Exactly.
11 Q. Did you have a conversation with Benetta Slaughter
12 on that day?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you have a conversation with Benetta Slaughter
15 within a couple days of that event?
16 A. I don't recall if I did or not.
17 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with
18 Benetta Slaughter about her employee?
19 A. Uh-huh, yes. Yes.
20 Q. Where was that in relationship to the original
21 event that occurred when she was naked, running around the
22 streets?
23 A. Yeah. Well, I remember talking, to Benetta, I'll
24 have to think now when this was, but I remember talking to
25 Benetta, asking her what happened on that. It must have
15
1 been within a couple days.
2 Q. What happened on what, on that day?
3 A. Yeah, on that night. Like could she please run
4 through for me what the sequence was. And then Benetta told
5 me that -- what the sequence was.
6 They had been together and Benetta was expecting
7 Lisa to follow her. I forget what she told me, from where
8 to where. I think they were going from AMC, the company, to
9 somewhere else, maybe Benetta's house or Lisa's house.
10 Anyway, they were going somewhere else.
11 And when Benetta got to that destination, Lisa
12 didn't show up. And then she backed up -- this is what
13 Benetta was telling me I think a couple days later. That
14 she saw the vehicle, the Jeep, Lisa's Jeep on the road, but
15 didn't see Lisa, and stopped. And I think she said she
16 talked to paramedics there, and the paramedics told her what
17 happened.
18 And I think Benetta -- I forget if Benetta, she
19 went down to Morton Plant or not. But I was interested in
20 what happened, she told me what happened.
21 Q. Did you memorialize this conversation, by any
22 chance?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you talk to anybody else other than her more
25 close -- more closely to the event at Morton Plant that
16
1 briefed you on what exactly occurred on that day?
2 A. On that day?
3 Q. You mentioned a Security Guard briefed you for the
4 initial call. Did you further follow-up to get a briefing
5 as to what exactly occurred?
6 A. At Morton Plant?
7 Q. Well, that day with her car and being undressed
8 and running around the street and the whole scenario.
9 A: No, no. No, that scenario I got from
10 Benetta Slaughter, and I don't recall asking anybody else
11 about that.
12 Q. Okay. Were you involved in the decision that you
13 made to offer her or extend her the -- the services of the
14 Church, a room?, Were you involved in that?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Who was?
17 A. I'm not sure who was. I was -- I'm not sure who
18 was.
19 Q. Okay. Are you aware of the individuals that
20 represent your Church that showed up down at Morton Plant
21 Hospital?
22 A. I'm sorry, I missed the first part, am I aware of
23 who was down there?
24 Q. Are you aware of the individuals of your Church
25 who showed up at Morton Plant?
17
1 A. Some.
2 Q. Who do you remember going down there?
3 A. I remember two of my staff, Annie Mora and
4 Humberto Fontana. I think Judy Goldsberry-Weber was down
5 there, Alain Kartuzinski. There may have been one or two
6 others, but I forget who it was.
7 Q. Okay. Was Benetta there?
8 A. She -- I don't know for certain if she went or
9 not. I forget if she told me she went down there or not.
to Q. Okay. At whose direction did the members of your
11 staff, your particular office go down there?
12 A. My direction.
13 Q. And the reason for that was your previous answer
14 about your concerns about the Baker Act situation?
15 A. Yeah. And find out what was going on and just let
16 me know, go down there and find out what was happening.
17 Q. Lisa was not Staff, nor has she ever been Staff.
18 while she was in Clearwater?
19 A. Well, she was never been Staff since I came there
20 in `94.
21 Q. She was in Texas.
22 A. I don't think she was Staff before that in
23 Clearwater. My understanding is she was not Staff in
24 Clearwater. If she was in Texas --
25 Q. That's my understanding also. It's not a trick
18
1 question. I think she may have been somewhere else, maybe
2 Texas, I'm not sure.
3 A. Maybe.
4 Q. Would this courtesy that you guys afforded her,
5 would that have been extended to any other parishioner or
6 was this something that was unusual here because of the
7 circumstances surrounding her bad day?
8 Reason why I ask, she wasn't Staff, she's just a
9 member of your Church, and you guys afforded her this --
10 this opportunity.
11 A. I mean, for sure it was an unusual circumstance.
12 I would say yes, it probably would -- it would probably --
13 it's hard to conjecture what the circumstances might be, but
14 if there was something similar, I think we would offer that,
15 yeah. I could see that happening.
16 Q. Okay. But you weren't involved in this -- in the
17 decision to bring her back to the hotel?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. And that person would have been who?
20 A. I'm not sure who. I'm not sure who. I was told
21 at one point by Paul Kellerhaus that it was just -- they had
22 a room and she was going to go into a room, and I just
23 acknowledged the communication, I didn't
24 Q. All right. It's my understanding that,
25 Mr. Kartuzinski was her Case Supervisor, correct?
19
1 A. Well, Alain is a Case Supervisor, and was at that
2 time a Case Supervisor, but I don't know if he was hers. I
3 don't know if she was there for auditing purposes. When you
4 say he was her Case Supervisor, I don't -- my understanding
5 wasn't that she was there, for auditing purposes, although he
6 is a Case Supervisor.
7 Q. I'll cut to the chase.
8 My understanding now is, from talking to many,
9 many witnesses, the purpose of her being there in the
10 Church, correct me if I'm wrong, she was experiencing some
11 mental problems, and you guys were going to stabilize her
12 through an isolation watch. And after that watch occurred,
13 there was going to be a procedure run on her, and the
14 procedure was an Introspection Rundown. Are you aware of
15 that?
16 A. I don't know. I don't know if the plan was to
17 have her have an Introspection Rundown.
18 Q. You didn't know then or you don't know now?
19 A. I don't know now. I didn't know then and I don't
20 know now if that was the plan or not. You may have heard
21 that testimony from somebody, that may be the case, but I
22 don't know that was a definite plan, that she had an
23 Introspection Rundown.
24 Q. All right, I find it unusual that the people at
25 the level of Church responsibility that I've talked to,
20
1 which would include 20 people that have various
2 responsibilities, involving housekeeping, all the way up to,
3 you know, librarians and you name it, would have that
4 knowledge and yet you wouldn't. You see what I'm saying?
5 find that to be a little unusual, that they would know that
6 there's a procedure, which is a fairly rare procedure --
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. -- that they would know that and the Chief of OSA
9 doesn't know. -
10 A. Right. Well, my understanding -- I didn't -- I
11 was never -- it was never reported to me that this was the
12 plan, that she was going to, as a definitive plan, that she
13 was going to have an Introspection Rundown. That's -- I've
14 not heard that that was the plan.
15 Q. Until this moment right now?
16 A. Well, I mean, if someone has testified that that
17 was the plan, then I'm not saying it wasn't, but I was --
18 correct, I've not been told and was not aware that that was
19 a definite plan that she was going to have an
20 Introspection Rundown.
21 MR. POLLI: Wait a second. But you know the
22 tech manuals all have, because we've talked about it,
23 that as part of what could happen. You're not telling
24 him you've never heard of a psychotic break?
25 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
21
1 A. I'm aware of the -- of the procedure of
2 Introspection -- let me clarify. Maybe I'm missing your
3 question.
4 Q. No, I got it. I got it. You know all'about it.
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. I mean, what it is. I'm not saying you don't know
7 what it is.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. You know that that chapter exists in the tech,
10 Hubbard's tech manual?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. My question is, until I just asked you this
13 question, you have never had -- or spoken the words
14 Introspection Rundown in reference to Lisa McPherson's case
15 up until today?
16 A. I've never been told that was a definitive plan,
17 that she was going to have an Introspection Rundown.
18 Q. You're qualifying that by using "definitive plan."
19 A. Well, a plan.
20 Q. Let's not use that word, "definitive." That makes
21 it sound like somebody was going to do that, and that's not
22 the question.
23 My question is, have you ever spoken the words
24 "Introspection Rundown" with anybody in reference to the
25 plan that was going to be implemented to bring
22
1 Lisa McPherson back to normal?
2 A. Can I just -- I'm not trying to be coy.,
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. What I -- what I -- you said regarding the plan to
5 have her have an Introspection Rundown. I am not aware and
6 was not aware thrt there was a plan to give her an
7 Introspection Rundown. That's what I'm trying to say.
8 I've -- in answer to your first part of the
9 question, yes, I've spoken the words
10 "Introspection Rundown," because it came up in.the media
11 that the plan was that she was -- she was there to get the
12 Introspection Rundown.
13 And I've talked to, I'm sure, my attorneys and
14 gone -- but -- but even in that conversation, I've never
15 heard anybody say, and to my understanding it wasn't the
16 plan, only because I hadn't heard it being the plan, to give
17 her an Introspection Rundown. I've never -- I've never
18 heard anybody say, yeah, our plan was to give her an
19 Introspection Rundown.
20 Q. Did you hear about any other plans that might have
21 been coming down the way for Lisa during her stay?
22 A. In terms of auditing, no.
23 Q. Okay. Let me just ask you this: What were your
24 thoughts on why she was being accommodated at the hotel for
25 17 days?
23
1 A. To provide her some avenue to come out of what, she
2 was in. And to provide her food and so forth in a -- in a
3 place other than a potentially harmful setting such as a
4 psych ward.
5 Q. Okay
6 A. To --
7 Q. I find that statement ironic. I mean, she's dead
8 now. Obviously, this thing -- I mean, she had -- she
9 expired in your hotel.
10 A. Yeah.
12 Q. That's why we're sitting here.
12 A. I don't know if she expired --
13 Q. She expired either in your hotel or on the way to
14 the hospital from your hotel.
15 A. Right.
16 Q. So your choice of words is not exactly appropriate
17 for "harmful setting" in other places.
18 A. Well, anyway, I mean, that's -- I'm just telling
19 you what my thought was.
20 Q. All right. So you can't explain to me why some of
21 these people would understand that that was the procedure
22 that was going to be run, but that information didn't reach
23 the OSA Office. Is that what you're telling me?
24 A. It didn't reach me.
25 Q. Okay. How many -- have you had some conversations
24
1 with Alain Kartuzinski -- let me focus in on him for a
2 moment.
3 Mr. Kartuzinski, you're telling me -- let me put
4 it this way: What was his relationship to Lisa McPherson,
5 ifany?
6 A. My understanding is that he knew what was going
7 on, but I don't know -- I couldn't give you a blow by blow
8 on what he did on a day-by-day basis. He'd have to tell you
9 that. But I'm aware of the fact that he was monitoring what
10 was, to some degree at least, what was going on. That's my
11 understanding, that he was monitoring and knew --
12 particulars you'd have to get from him, but my understanding
13 was that he had some information as to what was going on
14 while she was there.
15 Q. Okay. And who did you get that information from?
16 A. I talked to Alain at one point.
17 Q. Let's break that down.
18 Did you talk to Mr. Kartuzinski during this 17
19 days?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you talk to anybody that had anything to do
22 with Lisa McPherson during those 17 days?
23 A. Yes, Paul Kellerhaus.
24 Q. Okay. Was he the one that was informing you what
25 the status of her case was?
25
1 A. He would -- on occasion I would ask him how is it
2 going, what's -- what's happening, and he would -- he would
3 tell me what was going on.
4 Q. All right. And obviously, you were becoming now
5 aware that she was experiencing some --
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. -- further mental difficulties?
8 A. Right. Right.
9 Q. Okay. And how often would he-give you those
10 reports?
11 A. Maybe -- it was a verbal report. I would see him
12 every day or every other day and he would -- I would get
13 that from him maybe every -- during the course in time it
14 was probably about four or five, six times that I talked to
15 Paul, so it would be every few days, every couple of days.
16 Q. How about Arthur Baxter, did you ever speak to him
17 during these 17 days?
18 A. Pardon me?
19 Q. Mr. Baxter, did you speak to him also?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So Paul was your contact person in reference to
22 Lisa McPherson?
23 A. Paul was the only person I got information from.
24 Q. You said you talked to Mr. Kartuzinski, but that
25 was after Lisa died?
26
1 A. Yes, the next day.
2 Q. The following day after her death?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. And why was Mr. Kartuzinski getting reports on
5 Lisa's status at the hotel?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. You don't know?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. You don't know why he, out of all the people in
10 the hotel, would be getting direct reports on her status?
11 A. Well, from the sense that he was monitoring
12 what -- or had an interest in how she was doing, yes.
13 Q. Why?
14 A. Well, he's--he would -- he'd be in a role -- he
15 would have a role and responsibility or an interest at least
16 in how someone was doing who was staying --
17 Q. Okay. My question is, why him? What was his job?
18 A. His job at that time as Senior Case Supervisor
19 would be to make sure somebody was doing well who was there
20 under -- in some form of care under the Church.
21 Q. But his area that he's in charge of involves
22 auditing, right? He was the Senior Case guy in charge of
23 people that do auditing, correct?
24 A. That's right. I don't --
25 Q. He's not an MLO person, correct?
27
1 A. He's not an MLO person, no.
2 But I think the activities they would take would
3 be of interest to him. In other words, because his
4 responsibilities are to monitor what goes on in auditing
5 wouldn't necessarily mean that every person he was
6 interested in was there getting auditing, although that is
7 his main area of responsibility.
8 Like I say, it's -- we don't have people coming
9 there in that setting, in that kind of circumstance every
10 day.
11 Q. Right. I've heard that.
12 A. But it wouldn't -- it wouldn't -- I don't think it
13 would be outside of Alain's interest, even if she -- my
14 understanding then was that she was not getting -- was not
15 getting auditing, that was my understanding. It didn't seem
16 odd to me that Alain would have an interest in what was
17 happening from a -- from a -- from the MLO Staff viewpoint.
18 It wouldn't seem odd or out of -- out of his realm to take
19 an interest in what was happening with Lisa even though she
20 wasn't getting auditing.
21 Q. All right. Since this has occurred or at least --
22 let me ask you this: During those 17 days, were you aware
23 that there was a system in place in which you had members of
24 your Church staff watch her around the clock? Were you
25 aware of that?
28
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And who made you aware of that?
3 A. Paul.
4 Q. Mr. Kellerhaus?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Okay. Just guessing, there were probably 15 or 20
7 various girls that were watching her around the clock.
8 You're aware of that, correct?
9 A. I am now. At the time I couldn't have given you a
10 number, but I'm aware of that now.
11 Q. Well, that's just a rough figure, not going to
12 hold you to it.
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Are you aware they had a system in place in which
15 they would write down their observations that they made
16 during the course of their watch?
17 A. At that time I did not, no.
18 Q. Are you aware of that now?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How did you become aware of that?
21 A. Because I asked. It was earlier this -- at the
22 point where certain documents were being requested under --
23 under discovery rules.
24 Q. That's the first time you became aware of reports
25 being written in this situation?
29
1 A. Handwritten reports, yeah.
2 Q. So it's your testimony you had no idea up until
3 the time that this thing --
4 MR. POLLI: There are two sets of reports.
5 There's the reports that Marcus Quirino -- he knows
6 about those.
7 MR. McGARRY: Right.
8 MR. POLLI: We're talking about the
9 day-to-day --
10 MR. McGARRY: Daily caretaker notes.
11 MR. POLLI: Daily caretaker notes.
12 A. Let me -- I'm trying to think back now.
13 On the day-to-day caretaker reports, I don't
14 remember exactly if Paul told me at the time during her stay
15 there that they were giving -- that she was getting -- there
16 were handwritten reports,. He may have told me some written
17 reports were being done, he may have mentioned that.
18 I remember having the concept there were some
19 written reports. Let me correct. Forget what I just told
20 you. I had the idea there were some written reports, and I
21 was getting that from what Paul told me. Every three days I
22 would ask him, How's everything going?
23 Q. But you've never seen those reports?
24 A. I never saw them up until just a couple months
25 ago, maybe June or so.
30
1 Q. We'll get to that.
2 The reports, are you aware of why these reports
3 were being written?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You don't know?
6 A. I mean, well, at that time I didn't have some
7 clear recollection that, okay, there -- I didn't have the
8 concept there were daily reports being written, you know, in
9 some detail that I'm aware of now because I've read the
10 reports since, the daily caretaker reports. But why they're
11 being written, never -- thought never -- I'd have to say no,
12 I didn't think about that.
13 Q. Okay. Who would they be -- for what benefit or
14 who is getting the benefit of the reports? Who were they
15 being written for?
16 A. I don't know. I mean, in retrospect --
17 Q. Today.
18 A. Today?
19 Q. I'm asking you today, do you know who those
20 reports were being written for?
21 A. My understanding is they went into the PC folder,
22 some kind of a folder. And who was reading those, I don't
23 know, but I -- I would --I don't know. I could guess who
24 they'd be for. My guess would be Alain would look at them.
25 That would be my guess.
31
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. But I'm guessing.
3 Q. Do you know?
4 A. I'm guessing, but I don't know.
5 Q. You've never been told that he reviewed those
6 reports?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Either by Paul Kellerhaus, Marcus Quirino,
9 Benetta Slaughter, any of those people?
10 A. No. No.
11 Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Kartuzinski if he reviewed
12 those reports?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Haven't asked since this occurred?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You've had conversations with him, I guess, since
17 this occurred?
18 A. A couple.
19 Q. Couple conversations --
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. -- with Mr. Kartuzinski since this occurred?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. In reference to Lisa McPherson?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Okay:
32
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If he were to be the one that would read the
3 reports, why would he be the one?
4 A. Well, you're asking me to conjecture. I mean --
5 Q. The reason --let me finish the question -- the
6 reason why I'm ask you questions like that as opposed to
7 some of these people here is because of your title.
8 A. All right.
9 Q. Because of your title you should know. Would you
10 agree with that?
11 A. Yeah, maybe --
12 Q. Of all the people I talked to in this case --
13 MR. POLLI: A bunch.
14 Q. -- 20 or 30 people, more than that --
15 A. Right.
16 Q. -- if there's a procedure in place in that Church
17 in 1995 that goes on, if there's something going on there,
18 who would be in the best position to know the answer?
19 A. Here -- can I just clarify something? Maybe this
20 will get to the point. I'm not -- I'm not trying to be coy
21 with you.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. If there was a person who was there specifically
24 for auditing purposes, yes, Alain Kartuzinski would most
25 definitely have an interest. He maybe has other staff that
33
1 might be dealing in a Case Supervisor role where they would
2 look on a daily basis as to how it was progressing with
3 someone's auditing, and then he is Senior over those areas.
4 I don't know if he would see every single report, but he
5 might check in, he would make sure things are being run
6 right and people are satisfied with the auditing they are
7 getting, and he'd make sure things were being applied
.8 standardly.
9 We have a situation here where she wasn't there to
10 get auditing. You say it would be Alain's role. Well, this
11 is a little -- this is a different situation, where --
12 Q. Let me -- I want to let you continue, I don't ,want
13 to cut you short.
14 I'm not sure, would an Introspection Rundown,
15 would that be considered auditing or not?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. It would be --
18 A. Yes. My understanding is it is.
19 Q. -- auditing?
20 A. I'm not technically trained, but it's my
21 understanding that would be considered auditing.
22 Q. We didn't cover that. What level are you?
23 A. Clear.
24 Q. You're Clear?
25 A. And I've done some training, but not a lot of
34
1 training in how to deliver counsel.
2 Q. You're at least the same level as Lisa,
3 Mr. Kartuzinski and Dr. Minkoff?
4 A. Well, there's -- you're mixing up --
5 Q. I'm talking about as far as your -- not your
6 technical training, your spiritual training.
7 A. Administrative training, I'm --
8 Q. Way over those people?
9 A. -- probably comparable with Alain. Technically,
10 he's much more trained than I am on the technical side of,
11 the thing. In other words, technical means how you apply
12 auditing, Church counsel.
13 Q. Back to where we were. I didn't mean to
14 interrupt.
15 Now that I know that auditing is the process that
16 the Introspection Rundown involves --
17 Correct?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. -- you're still not saying that's what he had
20 planned for her?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. If he had it planned for her, that would be why he
23 got the reports. Do I have that right?
24 A. If -- yeah, I think that's close enough. I mean,
25 if they were planning to do -- if they were planning to have
35
1 her on some kind of an auditing program, once that auditing
2 program began there then would be reports that he would see
3 from whoever was -- from the Auditor. "The Auditor" meaning
4 the counselor would do a report on how the auditing session
5 went, and he would review that.
6 Q. And you didn't know about any of that plan?
7 A. I didn't know about any of that plan. I'm not
8 saying there wasn't a plan, I don't know of any plan. And
9 I -- my understanding was that she was not there to get
10 auditing. And I didn't know that she -- if Alain had a plan
11 to have her receive auditing, I didn't know about it.
12 Q. All right. Well, I know about it --
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. -- because I've been told that, and so has he --
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. -- on numerous occasions.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Okay. I'm going to go with the assumption that
19 there was a plan to audit --
20 A. Okay. I'm not saying there wasn't.
21 Q. -- and do an Introspection Rundown.
22 I find it incredible that, you being the head guy,
23 on a pretty big thing -- -
24 `Cause Introspection Rundowns apparently don't
25 happen every day, correct?
36
1 A. Right.
2 Q. -- that you wouldn't know about that.
3 A. Well, I -- I don't. I mean, should or shouldn't,
4 you may be right, but --
5 Q. Would you agree there would be quite a major
6 breakdown in the Church's communication system that that
7 possibly occurred or was going to occur without your
8 knowledge? Does that not offend you a little bit?
9 A. Yeah. I mean, I should have known every detail,
10 frankly, from my position as to what was, happening in that
11 situation.
12 Q. I would think.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. It's a big thing, right?
15 A. Absolutely.
16 Q. And you're saying -- you're standing here today
17 under oath telling me that you did not know that that was
18 the plan?
19 A. To -- exactly. To give her the
20 Introspection Rundown, that's true.
21 Q. And that did not make it to your level, but it
22 made it to everybody's level far, far below your position in
23 the Church?
24 A. If -- exactly. I mean, whatever you have, you
25 have. I don't know who -- who these people --
37
1 Q. I can name a bunch of names. I mean, they're
2 people that are just regular staff members, watch members.
3 A. But if you're talking should have known, I agree,
4 should have known.
5 Q. You should have known that?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. So who's responsible for that breakdown in that --
8 in that Com -- would you call that a Com infraction?
9 A. That would be myself. If I were to turn the clock
10 back, I would have done more and found out exactly what was
11 happening.
12 Q. Well, is that how it should be, an
13 Introspection Rundown is going to be going on underneath
14 your watch and you don't know about it and you have to dig
15 to find out that that's going to occur?
16 A. There are literally hundreds, many hundreds of
17 people every day that have various auditing programs and
18 different line-ups.
19 Q. I know. We've already come to -- come to grips
20 with this was a different --
21 A. I understand.
22 Q. -- animal. This is not an auditing session, this
23 is an Introspection Rundown.
24 A. I wouldn't -- it's not part of my job necessarily
25 to know what specific auditing steps someone may have
38
1 planned, even -- even for someone like Lisa, because my --
2 my understanding at the time was that she was not there to
3 get auditing, and that -- I don't know. Or that she was --
4 there was a plan to give her some auditing, that wasn't my
5 understanding.
6 Q. Well, I don't want to be argumentative, but to
7 further go into the subject matter, I can believe that maybe
8 for the 17 days it was going on there, maybe Kartuzinski had
9 this plan and he might not have informed you about it. Is
10 that possible?
11 A. Very possible.
12 Q. Well, if it was going to be done, he would have
13 been the guy to do it, correct?
14 A. I think he would have been the one to decide,
15 yeah.
16 Q. If an Introspection Rundown was going to happen,
17 who would be the one that would implement it?
18 A. I think Alain. It might have been one of his
19 staff, but I think he would know about it for sure.
20 Q. Well, who else? Give me some other people.
21 A. I don't know who his staff were at that time. It
22 would be in -- in the Case Supervisor Office.
23 Q. All right. And just so we're clear for the
24 redord, during that 17 days he never told you that this was
25 going to happen?
39
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. All right. And apparently, from our previous
3 coverage of this area, up until now you still weren't sure
4 that that was going to be the procedure?
5 A. No. I mean, I don't even consider it that odd,
6 partIcularly because I'm an administrator, I'm not over the
7 technical area.
8 Q. Okay. Well, the police got involved in this case
9 right off the bat, and then it went through some ebbs and
10 flows with various investigative coverage.
11 Would it seem logical that out of all the press
12 that got generated on this thing right from the get-go and
13 the Internet, and there was talk about Introspection Rundown
14 right off the bat, that you'd go, wait a minute, somebody
15 was going to do one of those without me knowing about it?
16 Kartuzinski, get him up here. You didn't do that?
17 A. Well, let me -- you have some -- I don't know why,
18 but this seems to be a very important point, the
19 Introspection Rundown. I don't know why. If she was or
20 wasn't, if that was his plan, so what? I mean, I don't
21 quite understand this.
22 Q. The only reason why I'm making it an important
23 point is because I'm sitting here dumbfounded that the head
24 cheese of the whole place didn't know what was going on with
25 a person that died in your hotel on a procedure that is very
40
1 rare, not done that often, that you've just admitted being a
2 pretty big deal. I'm concerned about that.
3 A. Let me explain. I'm head of external affairs.
4 run things like -- and in that position, when I was
5 Commanding Officer of OSA, my job is external to the
6 organization, to run community affairs programs, various
7 community involvement, clean-ups on the beach,
8 Winter Wonderland sort of projects, outdoor concerts with
9 Chick Corea, immigration matters, legal. You know, if
10 there's a case that's ongoing, that would come under my
11 office, I'd be in liaison with our attorneys on that.
12 You just characterized me as I'm the head honcho
13 for the whole organization, wouldn't I know about that. In
14 my role, I guess you could argue I should have or shouldn't,
15 but that's not normally the traffic that would cross my
16 plate in any given day. Even on a situation like with --
17 okay, Lisa McPherson was an unusual case, but it wasn't like
18 there was some special significance if she was going to get
19 the Introspection Rundown or not. I didn't feel compelled
20 to go find out, my gosh, is she going to get the
21 Introspection Rundown? Why does it matter?
22 Q. When Channel 8 comes knocking on the door down
23 there and they stick a microphone in somebody's face, it's
24 always your mouth, the one that they get?
25 A. That's right. They never asked --
41
1 Q. The assumption there, you're the spokesperson for
2 the Church that's supposed to know about this thing.
3 A. They never asked the question like that; If they
4 had asked the, question, we want to know if she had the
5 Introspection Rundown, okay, I'll find out. It might have
6 been some significance to me at that time to find out.
7 Q. Does it become significant at any time if that
8 procedure --
9 A. Correct, because if it was, I would have checked,
10 Hey, by the way, called up Alain on the phone, was there a
11 definite plan that she was going to get the
12 Introspection Rundown?
13 Q. So you've never done `that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You've never asked him?
16 A. I've never asked him that.
17 Q. And nobody told you it was the definitive plan?
18 A. Yeah, the definitive plan or the plan that she was
19 going to get the Introspection Rundown, I've never heard
20 that was the case.
21 Q. All right. After December 5th when she died, you
22 had to be concerned --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- as the head guy.
25 A. Absolutely. Absolutely.
42
1 Q. What procedures did you implement at that time to
2 find out what the heck went on there?
3 A. I -- one of our concerns was -- well, one I talked
4 to, I tried, to Dr. Minkoff and eventually did reach him on
5 that night at the hospital. And asked him what
6 Q. You did a summary on that and you gave it to me,
7 right?
8 A. Right.
9 To find out what had happened. And when he
10 mentioned she had had a severe infection -- she had had an
11 infection, and he didn't know what kind of infection it was,
12 and he mentioned possible -- he was thinking, because it
13 appeared to him at that time something fast-acting may have
14 been a problem, might have been a severe infection, he
15 mentioned meningitis --
16 Q. We'll get into that. You don't have to finish
17 what he was going to say.
18 A. That was my concern.
19 Q. After Minkoff, who else did you talk to?
20 A. I had -- I had somebody round up what, you know --
21 get some information from the different people involved, who
22 had been involved last couple of days or so.
23 Q. Who was that? Who was that?
24 A. Marcus.
25 Q. Quirino?
43
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. To round up, especially the last couple of days,
4 what -- who had been in touch with Lisa, because of of --
5 Q. The infectious possibility?
6 A. Yeah, and to quarantine people.
7 Q. All right. And I've got those -- some of those
8 synopses. And you read those synopses yourself, correct?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. I looked them over. I don't know if I read every
12 single word, but I looked them over when they came in.
13 Q. You deal with the in-house and the outside lawyers
14 that represent the Church, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Who was the person that first contacted the
17 lawyer, any lawyer, in reference to -- I don't want to know
18 what any of the privileged conversations are, I just want to
19 know who is the person that contacted the first lawyer to be
20 involved in this Lisa McPherson situation?
21 A. I am not sure if one of my staff contacted
22 Bob Johnson, our attorney, that night. I'm not sure if he
23 actually got through to him or not. I think they tried.
24 They may have contacted him or not, I don't know. It was a
25 bit confusing that night.
44
1 But the next morning, the 6th, morning of the 6th,
2 I called over to Bob Johnson in the morning when the police
3 had arrived to the Fort Harrison. And that's the first time
4 I know that Bob Johnson was contacted. I -- somebody may
5 have contacted him earlier that night.
6 Q. Okay. Did he get a briefing? I don't want to
7 know what the briefing was about. Did he get a briefing?
8 A. Well, I told him what was going on when I talked
9 to him.
10 Q. So you're the guy?
11 A. I'm not sure if I'm the very first person that
12 told him, but I called him that morning, the next morning,
13 morning of the 6th, and I told him what was going on, `cause
14 we had the -- the police arrive.
15 Q. Okay. And that was a prudent thing for you to do.
16 The police are involved --
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. -- you've got a death, you're worried about civil
19 litigation, criminal litigation, whatever happens, so you
20 get a lawyer involved, correct?
21 A. I wasn't thinking litigation, but I know the
22 attorney should be notified right away.
23 Q. All right. Was there an Internal Investigation
24 involving you or anybody that you know of that gathered
25 information, other than what you just told me about your
45
1 meeting with Mr. Quirino, in reference to the death of
2 Lisa McPherson?
3 A. Well, there was -- I now know that there were --
4 there were records gathered -- well, an investigation?
5 Q. Would you call it that? Does the Church have an
6 implementation, for, hey, something bad happened, I want you
7 to find out this, I want all the reports, I want everything
8 gathered up and I want to know exactly what happened,
9 because this was ugly and it looks bad? Was that done?
10 A. I don't know of any formal investigation that was
11 done.
12 Q. How about an informal one?
13 A. Well, I asked people what had happened. I mean, I
14 was trying to find out myself what had happened.
15 And then things took a pretty fast track because
16 early the next morning the police were already over there to
17 the Fort Harrison. And Bob Johnson eventually arrived. And
18 at that -- at that point Bob began, over some course of
19 time, to talk to different people in the Church as to what
20 happened. I mean, there was -- there was some investigation
21 that was done in the purview of our attorney, because he
22 interviewed different people that the police were interested
23 in talking to.
24 Q. Was one of those persons Alain Kartuzinski?
25 A. I'm sure it was.
46
1 Q. But you didn't debrief Mr. Kartuzinski, you just
2 talked to Quirino and got his summations --
3 A. Right.
4 Q. -- read his summations?
5 A. Right.
6 Well, I talked to -- briefly I talked to
7 Janice Johnson that night too, `cause I talked to her when
8 she was at -- she called. I talked to her by phone when she
9 was at -- in New Port Richey.
10 Q. Okay. We've had some testimony from a lot of
11 these Security people, as well as a lot of these caretakers,
12 that if something were to be done in a decision making
13 fashion about Lisa McPherson, whether or not she wanted to
14 leave, she wanted to go for a swim in the pool, whether she
15 wanted to do anything, that Mr. Kartuzinski was the one that
16 was going to be the person that made that decision. Are you
17 aware of that?
18 A. Aware that they said that or aware that he would
19 be in that position?
20 Q. Aware that he would be in that position to make
21 the call.
22 A. I -- I mean, I -- I don't know how to answer that.
23 I don't know.
24 Q. Well, let me ask you two questions: First,
25 obviously, from that answer, you certainly weren't aware of
47
1 it in the 17 days that she was staying at the hotel,
2 correct?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. All right. You're telling me now that you didn't
5 know that he was the one making the call and calling the
6 shots on Lisa McPherson's ability to come and go to this
7 day?
8 A. I would say -- no, I mean, I -- that's consistent
9 with his role. He could -- he could make that decision.
10 But I was not -- I would say, yeah, that would be -- I would
11 agree with that, that he would be the one to make that
12 decision.
13 Q. Well, that's what I'm following up on.
14 A. But here's --
15 Q. I'm--
16 A. Let me clarify the reason. I'm hedging.
17 MR. POLLI: Stop. Let me have a couple
18 minutes out here so we don't spend the rest of the week
19 running around in circles like this.
20 MR. McGARRY: All right.
21 (Off the record.)
22 BY MR. McGARRY:
23 Q. All right. Do I need to ask the question again?
24 MR. POLLI: You can, if you'd like.
25 A. Go ahead.
48
1 Q. Is there going to be a different response than we
2 had previously?
3 A. Well, shoot.
4 Q. Same question, the Alain Kartuzinski thing: It's
5 my knowledge now that I've gained from many people through
6 my investigation that he was in charge of her stay at the
7 hotel, called the shots, when she could leave, and got daily
8 reports of how she was doing. And it was going to be --
9 this was called an isolation watch in preparation for an
10 Introspection Rundown. Okay, that's what I've been told,
11 and through my investigation that's what I assume was going
12 on.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Now, my question to you is, have you gained that
15 same information that I did somewhere along in this last two
16 years?
17 A. Yes, that's my understanding too. I agree with
18 that. I -- I didn't know until now that there was, as I
19 said, a definite plan that she was going to the
20 Introspection Rundown.
21 Q. Definitive plan?
22 A. Definitive plan or plan, but that Alain was in
23 charge and would call the shots on that.
24 Q. So now it's your understanding that he is the shot
25 caller in the stay for Lisa Mcpherson?
49
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. As far as any of these people that I talked to, if
3 a caregiver or Security Guard or somebody had a question, he
4 would be the guy it would be directed to?
5 A. Right. Exactly.
6 Q. All right. So that's your understanding now?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. If that conflicts -- if that conflicts with what I
10 said earlier, this is my understanding, what I just said is
11 my understanding.
12 Q. Okay...
13 A. Okay. I mean, I may have --
14 Q. I think it does conflict with what you've said
15 previously.
16 MR. POLLI: We've straightened it out. We're
17 not confused with the 17-day thing, this is it.
18 A. We're not confused, right.
19 Q. I tried to ask it both ways, but I wanted to break
20 that down.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Your attorney mentioned that area with the change.
23 They've changed your post because of your lack of knowledge
24 about this occurring. Is that possible?
25 A. Well, there are many factors, because my -- my
50
1 move from the Commanding Off icer post to the public
2 relations post, which is lower, happened many months after.
3 But it was -- I don't think it was a direct factor, but
4 it's -- it was symptomatic of --
5 Q. What were some of the other factors? It sounds
6 like you got busted down a notch.
7 A. Yeah, I did. Frankly, I did.
8 Q. I might as well ask a straight-out question: You
9 got--
10 A. In essence, because I was not digging in and, you
11 know, being -- being the leader for the area, digging in on
12 various situations that needed addressing, and, you know,
13 thorough handling and competent handling, and it was my --
14 Q. This thing, this unfortunate tragedy, which you
15 can characterize it as that as well as anything --
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. -- that happened on your watch.
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And you're kind of telling me that during that 17
20 days she was there, you thought she was a guest at the hotel
21 enjoying the food and the --
22 MR. POLLI: Sun.
23 Q. -- sun and --
24 A. No. I knew more, but I didn't know -- I knew more
25 than that, because I was talking to Paul Kellerhaus, but I
51
1 did have the idea that it was -- that it wasn't as severe as
2 what was happening.
3 I mean, I knew that she was -- Paul would tell me,
4 asked what's happening, sometimes she was sleeping,
5 sometimes she wasn't, sometimes she was eating, sometimes
6 she wasn't, she was cussing out people, she would punch her
7 hand to the walls, knock over lamps, took a swing at one of
8 the girls, I knew that.
9 It was more that I -- at that point, in
10 retrospect, I should have dug in, says -- I should have
11 asked, are there written reports, can I see them, can I see
12 what's actually going on, maybe talk to the people who are
13 staying with her. I did none of that and I should have.
14 Q. All right. Just might as well ask, since we're on
15 the subject here of your demotion, how does that happen?
16 Who makes that call? Who's the person that comes in and
17 says, you know, this wasn't handled right, so this is what's
18 going to occur? Who's that person? I want to know who that
19 person is.
20 A. There isn't any one person --
21 Q. Well, who's the bunch of people?
22 A. -- necessarily. The way it happens is, if it's
23 something on the severity of a post demotion, you know,
24 being -- being demoted, a Committee of Evidence, which is
25 what it's called --
52
1 Q. We were going to get to that.
2 A. Well, yeah, that would be a normal procedure.
3 Q. Did that happen?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. On you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. And that was in -- I forget exactly when that was.
9 That was sometime later.
10 Q. I would like to know who the people involved in
11 that committee are.
12 A. Now I can tell you who.
13 Q. Yeah, do you know?
14 A. Yeah, I remember. It was Linda --
15 Q. You're involved, right?
16 A. Yeah. Yeah.
17 Q. You were the focus of it.
18 A. Linda Nivaves was on the committee,
19 Batteny Henderson was on the committee, Pular Jason was on
20 the committee. And there was a fourth person, I forget who
21 that was.
22 Q. Okay. Do you get -- do you have representation in
23 this committee or do you represent yourself?
24 A. I represent myself.
25 Q. So you fend, for yourself?
53
1 A. Pro se, I guess they call it.
2 Q. Pro se, exactly.
3 A. So, yeah. And the procedure is, and there's a
4 decision, that doesn't necessarily mean you will be removed,
5 but if there is enough evidence to show -- to warrant
6 removal and --
7 Q. I don't mean to cut you off, but if I don't ask
8 these in my little order, I'll get lost.
9 A. All right.
10 Q. And if you want to take a break, let me know,
11 we'll take a break.
12 Are these people local people or are they from
13 L.A. or somewhere, else?
14 A. They were local now. Couple are since in L.A.,
15 but local, yeah.
16 Q. Okay. Go ahead. You are going to talk about how
17 it works.
18 A. Well, they -- I mean, the way I was, the decision
19 was made looking at the whole scene, the way I was running
20 the office and so forth, that I wasn't running it well,
21 completely disrelated to -- in fact, Lisa McPherson didn't
22 even come up in that, it didn't come up.
23 Q. It wasn't a subject that was broached with the
24 committee?
25 A. It wasn't. I -- I don't recall it being broached.
54
1 Q. I'm going to ask them. I'm going to talk to them
2 all and ask them.
3 A. That's fine, yeah. As I recall, that didn't come
4 up. There were other things on how -- you know,
5 administrative things on how I was administering the office.
6 But I told -- I told my attorney earlier that I
7 could see in retrospect that the way I was approaching the
8 post was too glibly, was too, you know --
9 Q. To bury it? . -
10 A. Yeah, sort --
11 Q. Public relations?
12 A. Yeah, exactly. And that led to my removal from
13 that post. That wasn't quite -- later on.
14 Q. Was there any Committee of Evidence that might
15 have occurred for Mr. Kartuzinski's removal from his post?
16 A. I don't know of one.
17 Q. If one would have occurred, you would have been in
18 a position to know about it better than any of these people,
19 right?
20 A. I think so. I mean, if one had -- if one had
21 been -- if one had occurred and been issued, yeah, I would
22 probably known about it.
23 Q. But you don't know about one?
24 A. I don't know of one.
25 Q. Well, let's go back to that. Maybe one didn't
55
1 need to be done. My understanding is he doesn't do the same
2 thing he used to do and that kind of coincided with his
3 slip-up with Lisa McPherson.
4 A. I don't know what the circumstances were. That
5 wouldn't necessarily mean a Committee of Evidence was held
6 if somebody -- a person were demoted. They don't
7' necessarily go together.
8 Q. What is his position now?
9 A. I think he's just -- I'm not sure what he's doing:
10 I know he was doing a study position. He was on full
11 time --
12 Q. He doesn't have a staff position?
13 A. I'm not sure what he's doing now.
14 Q. Who knows that?
15 A. I can find out.
16 Q. You're the head guy --
17 A. I work in Public Affairs. I don't know what Alain
18 is doing right now. We've got 800 Staff members over there.
19 I don't know what he's doing today.
20 Q. But he's not Senior Case Supervisor anymore?.
21 A. No, that's correct.
22