Statement - Alfonso Barcenas

Date:March 25, 1997




DATE:                    March 25, 1997

TIME:                    Began: 9:10 a.m.
                         Ended: 10:15 a.m.

PLACE:                   Criminal Justice Center
                         Office of the State Attorney
                         Room 200B
                         Clearwater, Florida

REPORTED BY:             Ruth M. Martin, CSR, CP, RNR
                         Registered Merit Reporter
                         Notary Public
                         State of Florida at Large

    TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
   ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320

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          Office of the State Attorney
          Criminal Justice Complex
          Clearwater, Florida 34620
               Attorney for State of Florida

          Trenam Kemker Scharf Barkin
          Frye O'Neill & Mullis, P.A.
          Barnett Plaza, Suite 2700
          101 East Kennedy Boulevard
          Tampa, Florida 33602
               Attorney for the Witness


          LEE STROPE, Special Agent
          Florida Department of Law Enforcement

          WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
          City of Clearwater Police Department


     BY MR. McGARRY                  3
     BY AGENT STROPE                27
     BY DETECTIVE ANDREWS           45
     BY AGENT STROPE                54

CERTIFICATE OF OATH                 57

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The deponent herein,

ALFONSO BARCENAS, being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. DARKEN: As in the Greenwood deposition, Mr. Barcenas invokes his rights under the Fifth Amendment of the United States Constitution and is testifying pursuant to the provisions of Florida Statute 914.04.

MR. McGARRY: All right, we will begin.



Q. My name is Mark McGarry. I'm a prosecutor. And I'm going to be asking you some questions about the circumstances that surrounded the stay of Lisa McPherson at the Fort Harrison during the period of November of 95. I believe you were employed at that time?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Let me get some background information on you, if I could.. What's your date of birth?

A. X.

Q. Okay. Are you a U.S. citizen?

A. No.

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Q. You're not. What is the current status of your citizenship?

A. I'm working here with the Church.

Q. Okay. And under -- are you here on a Visa?

A. Yes.

Q. What kind of Visa?

A. Working Visa for Church member.

Q. Okay. Where are you originally from?

A. Mexico City.

Q. Okay. And how long have you been here with the Church?

A. Since September, 95.

Q. So you'd only been with the Church a couple months prior to this thing with Lisa?

A. Exactly.

Q. Okay. Were you a member of the Church prior to September of 95?

A. Exactly.

Q. And was that in Mexico City?

A. Well, it was in Mexico City from -- it began on 1976, 75.

Q. So you've been a member of the Church since 75 or 76?

A. Exactly.

Q. Have you held various positions in the Church

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other than being a Security Guard?

A. No.

Q. You've always been a Security Guard?

A. Well, at the beginning when I got here, I was working in Renovations. It's a -- one of the branches that we have. And I was working there in Treasury.

Q. Treasury?

A. Yes.

Q. What is that?

A. I -- I would go and get all the funds necessary to buy whatever it was needed. And contact all the providers to get the necessary things to keep on the renovations and all that.

Q. Okay. So you've been on -- so you characterize your position at the Church as a staff member, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you've been a staff member since -- how long?

A. Since the day I got here.

Q. Since Clearwater?

A. September, yeah.

Q. So you were not a staff member in Mexico City?

A. No.

Q. Were you taking courses in Mexico City?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. How far did you go in the courses?

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A. Well, I finished various courses. There are -- there are a infinity of courses that you can take, from administration to self-improving.

Q. Okay. How would you characterize your duties once you got your security title there at the -- at the Church in Clearwater? What were your responsibilities as a Security Officer?

A. Well, at the time that this happened I wasn't a Security Guard.

Q. In September of 95 you were not a Security Guard?

A. No.

Q. How about in November of 95?

A. Not yet.

Q. Okay. So all this investigation around Lisa Mcpherson's death, at that time what were your responsibilities at the Church?

A. I was in -- full-time starting as a trainee to get into -- into Security..

Q. Okay. The reason why I ask that is because many of the people that we've talked to refer to you as a security person.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. So they either did not know that you were not a full-fledged security member on the staff or that you were -- they probably didn't know that you were in training

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for that?

A. Well, probably they didn't know.-- know my stat.

Q. Status?

A. Status, et cetera.

Q. Okay. At that time who was -- did you have a senior?

A. Yes. It was Mr. Paul Kellerhaus.

Q. Kellerhaus?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. And he's a security person as well, right?

A. Yeah. By that time he was the Senior Inspections and Reports..

Q. Okay.

A. That was his -- his post.

Q. So would he be the person that -- who was your immediate supervisor?

A. I always address to him.

Q. He was the person you --

A. I received orders from him only.

Q. From him only?

A. Yeah. Because I was most of the time or all of the time I was studying, so I only received orders from him. He -- he was the one that told me to go and full-time study and that he will call me when he needed me.

Q. All right. How about Arthur Baxter, did you

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answer to him as well?

A. No.

Q. Do you know Arthur Baxter?

A. Yes, I do know him.

Q. Okay. Did you know him in September of 95?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. November of 95?.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. What was his position?

A. I think he was the Chief -- the Chief of Security.

Q. So would he be Paul Kellerhaus' senior?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Who would be -- which one ranked higher, Baxter or Kellerhaus?

A. Mr. Paul Kellerhaus was senior to Arthur Baxter.

Q. Okay. At the time of November of 95, were you provided a uniform to designate you as a Security Guard?

A. No.

Q. How would you characteristically dress?.

A. I was dressed in blue -- Navy blue pants and light blue shirt with a tie.

Q. Okay. All right. So how did you become involved in Lisa Mcpherson's case at the hospital? Who got you involved in that?.

A. I never was in the hospital..

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MR. DARKEN: At the hospital?

MR. McGARRY: Not the hospital, at the hotel.

A. Mr. Paul Kellerhaus told me that he wanted me to help him in -- in a special thing.

Q. On a special what?

A. On a special assignment.

Q. Okay. And do you recall where you were when he approached you with that?

A. He called me from study. I was studying, and he called me and -- and told me that he wanted to talk to me.

Q. All right. Were you alone when you had your conversation with him?..

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. What did he ask you to do?

A. Well, he told me that there was a -- a person that was -- that had an accident, and that from the accident she took his -- her clothes off and she was walking on the street. So that she became, how you -- how can I explain it? Got mentally disturbed by the accident, so she took her clothes off and began walking in the street. So that she went to -- she was picked up by the police. And then she was asked to go to the -- with us to the -- to the hotel. So we were going to take care of it.

Q. Okay. So do you remember what day that conversation was that you had with Paul Kellerhaus?

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A. No, not precisely.

Q. Okay. Was it after she had been brought to the hotel?

A. I -- I should say so, because she was there already.

Q. Yes. Do you know how many days she had already been there?

A. No.

Q. Okay. So what precisely -- how precisely would you describe your responsibilities with Lisa McPherson?

A. Well, my responsibility would be to prevent her for from harming herself or harming others, because she was mentally disturbed.. And to prevent anybody from the outside to be around making noises or -- or things like that. The same as -- I mean, she -- before we knew that she had gone running in the streets with no clothes. So I would have to prevent her from doing that because she could harm herself. I mean, running like that or -- or just running into the streets, she could get hit by a car or something, something of the sort.

Q. Okay. Were you -- now, I've talked to a number of people and I'll --. and they've also given me the names of several other women that were actually sitting in the room with her and watching her.

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A. Uh-huh.

Q. Rita Boykins, Barbro, Susan Rike, Emma, Joan, Patricia Strishner, Alice, a number of women, Janice Johnson, and a number of women.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Were you ever in the room with them watching Lisa or were you always outside of the room?

A. I was always sitting outside the room or walking or standing around.

Q. Okay. So they had different responsibilities than you?

A. Yes, totally.

Q. Okay. How would you describe their responsibilities?

A. Well, I wasn't inside with them, but they were to -- as -- as far as I know, as far as what I saw that they did, was they -- the room was cleaned every three or four times a day because she would get mess. I mean, she was peeing and poohing in her clothes. So they would have to take the clothes out and -- and put some more, how you say, the things in the bed, change --

Q. Sheets?

A. Linen sheets and things.

Q. All right.

A. So I would provide everything, because the next

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room was exactly a room where we kept all -- all these things. So I would take all the -- the -- the clothes and everything that were already dirty and would see that they were properly cleaned and everything, and provide the -- the new ones. They were there to help her, feed, clean and be with her.

Q. Okay.

A. Trying to avoid that she would do something to harm herself or whatever.

Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Alain Kartuzinski?

A. No.

Q. Do you know who he is?

A. Now.1 know him. By the time I didn't.

Q. Okay. Did you -- who is Olivier or Oliver Jaccot, J-a-c-c-o-t? Do you know who that person is?

A. No, I don't know that name.

Q. Are you aware who, other than Paul Kellerhaus, who is the person that actually organized and got all these women together and put them on a schedule? Who did that? Do you know who did that?

A. No, I really don't know.

Q. You don't know who organized --

A. No.

Q. -- all the girls as far as their, you know,

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schedules and discussed --

A. No. No. Because as far as I know, they were from different departments, so I don't know.

Q. All right. So how many days were you sitting outside of that room?

A. Well, I would say between eight and ten days.

Q. All right. And are you familiar whether or not you were there till the day she left the hospital -- I mean left the hotel to the hospital? Were you there the very last day?

A. No.

Q. You weren't?.

A. No, I wasn't.

Q. Now, who -- was there somebody else doing the exact same thing that you would do that was also in this assignment?

A. Yes.

Q. Cause you didn't do it 24 hours.

A. No..

Q. Obviously had to sleep sometime.

A. No. I was replaced by another -- another person, Sam Ghiora.

Q. Okay, Sam. And what was his -- he was staff, right?

A. Yes.

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Q. And what was his position at the Church?

A. He was -- he was working by the time as a person that -- that brings people to -- to the Church, that talks to people and brings them to the Church.

Q. Kind of a recruiter?

A. Kind of a recruiter, exactly.

Q. Okay. But he wasn't with Security?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Who's the one that asked him to help you in this assignment?

A. I think it was Paul Kellerhaus too.

Q. Okay.

A. I'm not sure.

Q. Okay.

A. I'm just guessing.

Q. Okay. So as far as watching the door --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. -- besides you and Sam, is there anybody else?

A. Not that I know. And basically, we were not watching the door. I mean, we were there if -- if we were needed, you know.

Q. Okay. What is the arrangement for that room? I mean, that's -- we're talking about the cabana, right --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. -- area of the hotel?

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Does that have a lock on the door?

A. Yes. It's a -- a solid -- all -- as all the doors in the hotel, it's the same lock and everything.

Q. Does it work with a card or a key?

A. Well, all the doors, you need to use the -- the key. And every time that you have to go in, you need the key, because it does lock. They are always locked, all the doors.

Q. It's like a hotel door?

A. Yeah. Every -- every door in the hotel, when you close the door, if you don't have the key, you need to ask for another one, because it's -- it's always locked.

Q. And that's to get in?

A. To get in. And -- and the other side, it's a normal -- you just open the door and that's it.

Q. Okay. So were you -- what was the last day, if she left on December 5th, and I know that to be a fact --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. -- when was the last day that you were assigned to assist in this assignment, as best you can recall?

A. Uh-huh. To tell you the truth, I -- I don't remember the -- the date exactly.

Q. Okay. Well, how about, can you tell me whether it was a day before she left, two days before she left, three

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days before she left, or you're just not sure?

A. I'm -- I'm not really sure. But it could be like probably four days, because I -- I knew then when she -- she died, I knew that she died, but it was like four, five days maybe.

Q. So does that mean Sam had those duties the whole time or those duty weren't needed anymore?

A. At the same time that I was off from that particular duty, he was of f too. We were both at the same time out.

Q. Out of it?

A. Yes.

Q. So nobody was around doing your assignment --

A. No.

Q. -- the last three or four days?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Now, do you know why that is? Did Kellerhaus tell you you weren't needed anymore?

A. Yeah, he said that we weren't needed anymore.

Q. Okay. Up until that time that you terminated your -- that particular assignment, did you -- how many times, or if you can recall any specific instances, how many times did you go in and actually see Lisa in the bedroom? mean in her room..

A. To be inside the room? In all the time that I was

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there, maybe four, five times.

Q. Okay. And -- and what was the nature of those contacts?

A. Well, I remember once, one of the girls came out and told me that she was getting a little bit violent and that she broke a -- a lamp that was fixed in one of the walls. So I went to see what -- what was broken and what -- if there was glasses or something in the floor. And the lamp was partly plastic and partly wood. So I decided just to take it of f. I mean, it wasn't really harmful, but it had edges, so it could cut somebody, so I just decided to take it of f. And I took it of f, everything. Another time Lisa was sitting in -- in the bed, and with the headrest that was wooden, she was hitting her head against it. And it would bounce against the wall. And it was making a lot of noise. And more because she was hurting herself, I decided to take it off too. So that was another time. Another time was, oneof the girls came out and told me that -- that she needed help to -- to take all the sheets and things out. So I just went in and took everything out.

Q. Okay. Did you ever speak to Lisa?

A. No.

Q. Now, I know that there's a reason for that.

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A. Right.

Q. There was a policy with the Church that you don't speak--

A. Right.

Q. -- to people that are in this way?

A. Exactly.

Q. Okay. And did you adhere to that policy?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Did she ever try to speak to you?

A. Well, she would say things. She wouldn't refer like hello, how are you or whatever, but she would say non sequitur things. I mean, she would say normal phrases, but with no sense.

Q. And all the time that you were on this assignment, did you ever -- were you ever given the impression by Lisa that she wanted to go home or leave?

A. No. I think that -- that she was feeling good there.

Q. Okay. At -- during your period of this assignment, did you ever -- did you ever escort or let any guests in to see Lisa when she was there?

A. No. No.

Q. Okay. If somebody wanted to visit her, would they see you first and then you would let them in? Is that how that would work? ,

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A. Well, they would see whoever they needed to see. I don't know exactly who. Maybe the Security Chief or Mr. Kellerhaus, I don't know. But they wouldn't go directly with me. If they would go directly with me, I would refer them to Paul Kellerhaus.

Q. Okay. Did -- did all of these ladies that I mentioned, did they have their, own key and access to this room?

A. No.

Q. Just you?

A. I -- I was the only one that had the key. And by the time I change with Sam, I would give the key to Sam.

Q. Okay.

A. And, of course, the -- the front desk, they had another -- another key or whatever.

Q. During this period of time you wrote some reports?

A. No.

Q. You didn't write any reports?

A. No.

Q. Okay.

MR. McGARRY: Do we have a report from a Security guy? DETECTIVE ANDREWS: Yeah, I have it here. Do you want to maybe look through this and see if you did ,write any reports?

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MR. McGARRY: That's a good idea. Might as well start out with 141. Is that the one you're referring to? DETECTIVE ANDREWS: No. I was just going to let him look through this and see if he recognizes any of his written reports in there.

MR. McGARRY: Okay. That's a good idea. (Pause) THE WITNESS: No.

MR. McGARRY: Okay. So the 142. must be another fellow's report, is that what I'm getting? DETECTIVE ANDREWS: Yeah, I guess we were given -

MR. DARKEN: We can talk about that later.



Q. Were you aware that the girls that I mentioned -- were they keeping reports?

A. Well, I know that some of them did, because I -- I saw them writing. So I

Q. But you're not aware if they all did or whether or not they were --

A. No, not really.

Q. Do you know what the chain of clearance for those

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reports would be? I mean, how do those reports -- where do they go from the girls? Where do they go next?

A. No, I wouldn't know.

Q. Okay. All right. During the period of time that you were on this assignment, did you ever see Dr. Janice Johnson come to visit Lisa Mcpherson?

A. Well, I --

Q. Do you know her, first of all?

A. I know Janice, yes.

Q. Okay.

A. Yes. I saw her like, I don't know, several times.

Q. Several times?

A. Yes.

Q. And can you -- how would you characterize her -- her stay? I mean, were you with her in the room at any of these times?

A. No.

Q. Never?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Can you give us, an estimate of the length of time that she would be in the room?,

A. Well, it varied from 10, 15 minutes to hour.

Q. Okay. And that would have been up to your last day, which would have been three or four days prior?

A. Uh-huh.

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Q. And how about Laura -- how do you pronounce her last name -- Arrunnada? DETECTIVE ANDREWS: We say Arrunnada, but I understand it might be Arrunnada.

A. I don't know her second name, I know Laura.

Q. Laura.

A. But I don't know her second name.

Q. Did you -- during your assignment on this with Lisa, did you did you ever see her come and visit?

A. Yes, I saw her over there.

Q. Okay. And were you ever in the room with her?

A. No.

Q. Okay. And how would you characterize the length of time that Laura was in there visiting Lisa? I mean, how much time would she usually spend?

A. Well, she was there like for a period of time, and normally in -- in the place of one of the girls. She would just go and replace one of the girls over there. So she would stay, I don't know, maybe six, eight, ten hours.

Q. Okay. During this period of time there were, other Security Guards that were working this section of the hotel?

A. No. Only when -- when I would go eat, for instance, one of the guards would -- would come and tell me, Okay, go, and I'll -- I'll be here.

Q. But isn't there a regular security crew that works

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the hotel, a number of Security Guards that work the hotel at all times?

A. Yes.

Q. That's what I'm asking you.

A. Oh, I see. Yes, normally there is one at day and one at night. There's a shift at daytime and a shift at nighttime.

Q. Okay. And how many people are on each shift?

A. It varies. It's -- I mean, by that time I think there were like two, three people at night, and during the day there were like maybe five.

Q. Okay. And do those individuals have access to keys to that room?

A. Well, the keys to the -- to the hotel are always kept in -- in the front desk. So if they need a key, they go to the front desk and ask for it.

Q. I understand. Okay. The day that was to be -- what ended up to be the last day of Lisa's stay at the hotel in the cabana; are you aware of her being assisted out of that out of her room by any security people?

A. I have no idea.

Q. Okay.

A. I -- I don't know when she went out or -- at all.

Q. All right. You're regular with Security now,

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A. Yes, I am.

Q. Okay. Do you have ~- do you have a schedule that you keep?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And everybody has a/schedule that they keep?

A. Yes, everybody.

Q. And how is that organized and who organizes that?

A. Well, Mr. Paul Kellerhaus is the one that organizes it.

Q. All right. And is there a chart somewhere located in that hotel that you look at and realize that you've got eight hours to do between such and such hours and such and such hours?

A. Yeah. There is a schedule written down, and we all know that it -- it's over there and we have to follow it.

Q. Okay. You weren't on that schedule at the time of November of 95, correct?

A. Not at all. I was, as I told you, I was --

Q. Special?

A. -- studying all the time.

Q. Okay., Who is, the -- who are the individuals that accompanied Lisa to her home to retrieve her personal effects, do you know?

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A. I -- I don't know. I have no idea.

Q. Were you around when that occurred?

A. No.

Q. Are you aware of her ever leaving that room in the accompaniment with anybody or by herself?

A. No.

Q. So to the best of your recollection, she never stepped foot out of that room?

A. No.

Q. And to the best of your recollection, she was never -- didn't ever receive any visitors other than the people -- I might not have named all of them, but other than the staff people of the hotel that were assigned to take care of her?

A. Exactly.

Q. Okay. When did you learn that Lisa had died?

A. I think it was either the next day or the day that she died. Mr. Paul Kellerhaus told me. Q.. He did.. And did you have a meeting with Marcus Quirino?

A. No.

Q. Do you know who Marcus Quirino is?

A. Yes, I know.

Q. Were you, -- you weren't asked to be present at that meeting?

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A. Well, I was asked to go to the -- to the Coachman Building because I was going to be asked some questions. And when I got there, Mr. Paul Kellerhaus was the one that asked me everything, so I didn't meet with anybody else.

Q. Oh, okay. So you talked with Kellerhaus about what occurred, what you did and

A. Exactly. He took notes, and that was it.

Q. Okay.

A. Of course, there were many other people around, ,but particularly I spoke to him and that's it.

Q. All right. Did you ever speak to Lynn Farney?

A. Yes. Q.. What is his position?

A. , I don't know. He's a -- from the Office of Special Affairs, that's all I know;

Q. Okay. And when was that, back -- way back when or recently?

A. Well,.:this was like two weeks ago, three weeks ago.

Q. Okay. Anything else in reference to Lisa McPherson that you think would be important in reference to our investigation? Any other observations that you made?

A. No.

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MR. McGARRY: I don't have any other questions, but if you could bear with us, the Detectives might have something else that I missed. And I have to remind you that you're under oath as well with them as you are with me. THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.



Q. You said that Paul Kellerhaus was your senior back then?

A. Right.

Q. Is he still your senior?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. And where does Mr. Baxter fit into all this? What was his position back then?

A. He was, I think, the Chief of Security.

Q. So did you ever see him in the room with Lisa?

A. No.

Q. Do you know that he had written this report? Are you familiar with his signature?

A. No. I don't know if that

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Q. You don't know if that's his report or not?

A. No.

Q. Or, his signature?

A. As far as I don't remember him being around her.

Q. Okay.,

A. Around where I was.

Q. Okay. During your -- your watch there, did you have to write reports?

A. No.

Q. Was there some reason you didn't write reports?

A. Simply, nobody told me to do it.

Q. Okay.

A. So I didn't.

Q. So unless -- unless someone tells you to, you don't have to?

A. Exactly.

Q. There are no written orders or procedures saying that when you're on a duty, of some sort or any sort, you have to write reports daily?

A. No.

Q. Do you write reports now daily?

A. No.

Q. No. So if nothing happens, you don't have to write anything?

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A. Well, the thing is, there's nothing -- there's nothing to report, I don't report anything.

Q. Okay.

A. If there's something to report, I say it verbally.

Q. Okay. And you said that you saw Dr. Johnson several times. How many times is "several times"?

A. I don't know. She would go -- Janice would go -- come and go. I don't know. She would come every time that she wanted to come. Mostly she -- she would go like in the morning, sometimes she would return at -- in the afternoon.

Q. So on -- so on that day in the -- that she came in the morning and returned in the afternoon, that's two times?

A. Right.

Q. So how many times total do you say she was there? Was she there twice a day while you were there?

A. Maybe.

Q. And you were there how many days?

A. Eight to ten.

Q. So she could have been there 16 times?

A. Right.

Q. Right, okay. So it just wasn't several, it was many more than several?

A. Well, I say several because -- several.

Q. We all know several could mean three or could mean

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ten, that's why I'm trying to clarify.

A. Right. I don't know' exactly the numbers, so

Q. Did she ever carry anything into the room? Did she have a doctor's bag or anything like that?

A. No. She would always take everything, rings and her tag name and take everything off and give it to me sometimes.

Q. Why would she do that?

A. Well, from -- to prevent Lisa to harm herself or to harm another people. Everything that was possibly loose, she would take it off.

Q. Was there -- was there a phone in this room?

A. No.

Q. So it's not like a regular hotel room that has a television and a phone, or was it just taken out of there?

A. ,No, I took out the -- well, somebody gave me the phone and I took it out.

Q. So they took the phone out?

A. Yes.

Q. So there's no communications out of -- out of that room, right?

A. Other than -- than telling me.

Q. Okay. Now, if someone needed to use the phone, say Dr. Johnson needed to use the phone, where would she go to use a phone?

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A. Well, whenever Janice wanted to use the phone, she would go out and go to the -- to the next room.

Q. And what is the next room?

A. It was the housekeeper.

Q. Okay. Did you ever overhear any conversations that Dr. Johnson had in that room?

A. No.

Q. No, okay. Did she ever tell you who she was calling?

A. No.

Q. Are you familiar with a man named Dr. Minkoff?

A. I don't know Minkoff, I have -- I have heard him.

Q. Did you ever see him at the hotel?

A. No.

Q. And you spent eight ,to ten days outside the room. And how many hours a day did you work? I know some people told us they were working as many as 16 hours a day.

A. Yeah.

Q. Did you work 16 hours days?

A. No. I would be there like 10, 12 hours.

Q. Okay. So you're there 80 to 100 hours all told?

A. Yeah. Let's say I would get there like around ten o'clock and would leave at ten o'clock, with the normal meal breaks and that.

Q. Okay. So -- so when it was time for a meal break,

page 32

you would -- how do you communicate around? Do you have walkie-talkies?

A. Yes, I had a radio.

Q. So if it was time for you to go eat, you would call someone?

A. No. I would wait until somebody --

Q. They would send someone?

A. Yeah.

Q. They have a schedule where you would go eat?

A. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Q. And then you would be gone for an hour, half an hour and come back?

A. Uh-huh. Half an hour, 45 minutes.

Q. And when you were gone -- when you left there, Sam took -- what's Sam's last name?

A. Sam Ghiora.

Q. How do you spell that?

A. G-h-i-o-r-a.

Q. Where is he from? Is he from Mexico?

A. No. He's from California.

Q. So when you were taken off this watch for good, were you told why you were taken off?

A. , Because we were not needed anymore.

Q. So she wasn't violent anymore?

A. She was calm most of the time.

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Q. Now, early in this watch she was violent, she was a threat, she was jumping up and down or doing things that you say were -- were threats to people, and you were needed there. As the watch went on, apparently you weren't needed there anymore, so she was no longer a physical threat to anybody?

A. Exactly.

Q. Why was that?

A. I don't know. Maybe she --

Q. Could it be

A. She -- she was improving. From my point of view is that there was a time when she get to know the people around.

Q. So -- so she wasn't so violent?

A. Right.

Q. Was she then allowed to leave --

A. Well, I can't say that.

Q. -- when she wasn't violent anymore? But you -- but you weren't needed there anymore?

A. No.

Q. What -- do you remember the number of the room that she was in.

A. Seven -- seven four something -- no, I don't.

Q. Don't remember, okay. It's been a long time.

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You say these doors are like regular motel doors that you close them and they lock --

A. Exactly.

Q. -- from the outside?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And inside, do they have, like motel doors, safety chains or dead bolts?

A. Yeah. They have one thing that goes like this and another (Indicating)

Q. Yeah, I understand. I've seen those. And do they also have a dead bolt --

A. And they have --

Q. -- like all hotels room?

A. Well, I don't remember. They have the -- the thing.

Q. Okay.

A. Because you can -- I know that you can open it from the inside very easy, you just turn the knob. But from the outside, it doesn't turn.

Q. Okay. Who told you that -- that you would no longer be needed on this watch?

A. I don't remember. I -- I remember that in the morning I went to the Security booth to get my radio and tell that -- and say to somebody that I was there, and they told me that I wasn't needed anymore.

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Q. Did they tell you why? , ,

A. No..

Q. And you've been on security with this organization since then?

A. Exactly.

Q. Has there ever been any instance since this happened that you did this same type of duty again, where you had to stand outside a room and watch somebody?

A. No.

Q. This is the only time since you've been a Security Officer?

A. Yeah, exactly.

Q. What training do you have? Do you have any medical training?

A. No.

Q. None at all?

A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)

Q. And what training do you have, in being a Security Officer?

A. Well, we go through a normal training. We learn the -- the laws, we learn about how to treat people, how to approach the people, what to look for. If there is a -- a problem between any of our members, staff members and another person, how to act. When to call the police. To help the police, et cetera.

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Q. Is there any -- are there any times when members of your organization are armed?

A. No, never.

Q. No.

A. Precisely, that's one of the -- of the things that we are trained to avoid.

Q. Okay.

A. If we -- if we can talk to the person, it would be better than to utilizing a weapon.

Q. Okay. So how many -- you said you went inside the room where Lisa was at four or five times?

A. ,More or less.

Q. Did you ever have any physical contact with Lisa? Did she ever try to hit you?

A. Never.

Q. Did you ever have to hold her hands or did you ever have to hold -- help subdue her, to quiet her down? That would be a normal -- if she's violent, somebody needed ,to help. And if you were called in, did you ever have to physically lay your hands on Lisa?

A. Well, two times I touch her. , , Once was the, first time that I went inside to -- to handle the lamp. She put her -- her body in front of me., And I didn't know what to do, so I extended my hand to shake her hand, and she grabbed my hand just as normal. And I

page 37

stood like looking at her and she stood looking at me. And I just let go ma while. And she let go. That's it. And the second time, one of the girls called me because she was acting violent and she tried to hit the girls and everything. She was lying on the bed. And Rita Boykin was sitting in the bed and like putting her arm around her wrist. And she was hitting with her legs on the back of Rita. So I just grabbed the ankles and put them down. And then she began hitting the floor with her toes. So I remember that I put a pillow underneath her toes. And I was just like stopping the feet to -- to hit.

Q. Now, was this near the end of your watch or near the beginning of your watch?

A. No, this was like the third, four day.

Q. Did she ever strike you?

A. No. Q.. Did you ever strike her?

A. No.

Q. Do you know of anybody that struck her?

A. No.

Q. The last day that you were there, when was the last time you saw Lisa?

A. The last day I was there.

Q. And how long -- I'm trying to get an idea of when that would have been. Was that close to the time she passed

page 38

away or five days, ten days --

A. More or less, five days.

Q. So five days from the day she passed away you saw her last?

A. Uh-huh, yes.

Q. Was she -- could you describe her physical appearance to me then?

A. Well, she was little bit thinner,. For the rest, she was the same.

Q. Did she have any bruises, marks, scratches, black eye?

A. No.

Q. Nothing?

A. No. Q So you don't remember any physical characteristics?

A. No. I remember from the beginning and see it all the way through, she had like -- like kind of a rash here. (Indicating)

Q. A rash?

A. Rash. Like a -- like when you expose yourself to the sun for a long, long time. Like something here.

Q. Red?

A. Reddish here and here. (Indicating) But that was

page 39

Q. But you say she lost weight?

A. Yes.

Q. As far as you know, was she eating regular?' Who would bring meals to her?

A. Sometimes I would, sometimes some -- at the beginning some other people was bringing food. And they would bring three plastic foam things with food, one for each;'one for her, one for one of the girls and one for the other girl.

Q. Okay.

A. And later on, I began bringing the food. And it was the normal food that -- that we ate over there. I would bring the same three amounts of the same.

Q. Who -- who would carry off the empty containers and clean out the room?

A. Well, as I tell you, every three,, four times a day I would take everything out, including the garbage,, that, all the glasses and the water that I wOuld bring in would be containers.

Q. So you brought food and water in, but you have no idea how much --

A. How much?

Q. -- of it was used?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever hear anybody say that Lisa's

page 40

medically ill and needs maybe hospitalization?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever hear anybody say that she should see a doctor?

A. No.

Q. Of course, did you ever -- were you ever in the room when Dr. Johnson went into the room?

A. No;

Q. Okay. And Mark hit on this earlier, if -- she wanted to see visitors or visitors wanted to see her, you say it would have to go through Mr. Kellerhaus, was that who it was?

A. I think so, yes.

Q. So they couldn't come right in and visit her?

A. No.

Q. And why is that? Is that, a closed facility over there?

A. Well, first of all, because I didn't know the person, so I wouldn't let any ---anyone just like that. Just the -- the normal people that I know, they were there.

Q. What if her mother showed up and wanted to take her home?

A. I think that she could take her home.

Q. Is that right? But she'd have to go see Mr. Kellerhaus first?

page 41

A. Well, yes, of course. I wouldn't let anyone

Q. You wouldn't let anyone in?

A. As I didn't know her mother, whatever, nobody, I mean -

Q. And you were outside the door 12 hours a day?

A. Yes.

Q. And when you weren't there, there was someone else outside the door 12 hours a day?

A. Exactly.

Q. And that was your post?

A. Exactly.

Q. And your job is security, right?

A. Yes.

Q. If there -- if there was an emergency, a medical emergency in that room, and maybe Lisa had a temperature or something, did you have orders who was to be called?

A. I would call Security. -

Q. And who would they call, Dr. Johnson?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know?

A. They would normally call a doctor, but

Q. They would normally call a doctor?

A. Yeah.. ,

Q. Was there ever a time when somebody said, We need somebody here, we need some medical help, call Dr. Johnson,

page 42

call somebody?

A. No. We never referred to Janice as doctor.

Q. What was her title?

A. I don't know. She -- she worked in the Medical Physician Office, but I don't know what her post was.

Q. Well, who was in charge of her physical well-being? I mean, everybody seems to be concerned about her mental well-being and her violence. Who was concerned with her medical well-being?

A. I don't know.

Q. Nobody? Nobody?

A. Well, she wasn't sick, I think, that's why.

Q. Was there ever a time someone which was one of her caretakers became emotional and came out and confronted you with a problem she was having dealing with this person --

A. Yeah.

Q. -- Lisa?. , What was that person's name?

A. One was Sylvia Delavaga. She had a breakdown. She couldn't confront the fact that -- that she couldn't speak to her and that she was saying incoherent things and acting the way she was acting.

Q. So--

page 43

A. So she came out and she cried a little bit. And I said, Well, you're helping her a lot by -- by cleaning and by doing what you're doing, so don't feel bad, just don't listen to her. And that's it.

Q. So you're saying she was emotionally upset and obviously upset because she couldn't communicate?

A. Yeah. She was sad because of the state of the -- of the girl.

Q. That's -- that's a little different than not being able to communicate. I mean, what we're hearing is the reason she was distraught was because of Lisa's physical appearance and physical --.

A. Uh-huh.. ,

Q. -- deteriorating appearance.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. That's a little bit different than she was distraught over. the fact that she can't communicate with her.

A. Uh-huh..

MR. DARKEN: What's your question?

Q. Well, my question is, when -- when she came out of the room, why -- did she tell you why she was distraught?

A. No. She -- she wouldn't -- she didn't wanted to talk.

Q. So she didn't say anything, she --

page 44

A. I was the one begin talking.

Q. So the fact-- the idea that she was distraught over not being able to communicate is your idea --

A. Yeah.

Q. -- that is not Sylvia's?.

A. Yeah.

Q. Is that what you're saying now?

A. Yeah.

Q. Have you discussed your testimony here today with Mr. Farney?

A. Who is Mr. Farney?

Q. Lynn Farney --

A. No.

Q. -- the OSA representative from Los Angeles.

A. No..

Q. He's not an attorney.

A. (The witness shakes head negatively.)

Q. Now, other than your communications with your attorney -- and I don't want to get into that, I understand that privilege -- but other than the communications that you've had with your personal attorney, Mr. Darken, have you talked to-- about your deposition today with any other attorney?

A. No.

Q. Are you familiar with an attorney named

page 45

Laura Vaughn? Have you met her?

A. No. AGENT STROPE: Lynn Vaughn? DETECTIVE ANDREWS: Laura Vaughn. AGENT STROPE: I' don't have anything else. DETECTIVE ANDREWS: I've just got a couple of quick, questions and we'll be done. THE WITNESS: Yes. EXAMINATION BY DETECTIVE ANDREWS:

Q. How far spiritually in the Church have you gone? I've been a little familiar with looking at the chart of Spiritual UP and Sci Clear and everything. How far have you gone along? I don't think you really answered that when Mr. Mccarry asked. What have you gotten to?

A. Well, I haven't got to Clear yet.

Q. Okay.. So you're below that?

A. Yes.

Q. Which would be what? What course are you working on now?

A. Well, you can -- you can go on -- on the chart on two sides. One is the -- the auditing side. I've gone up to Grade II. And the other --

Q. That's an auditor? ,

A. No.

page 46

Q. Grade II in Auditing?

A. In Auditing Section. And the other side, you can study how to do it. But besides that, there are a lot of courses that you can do.

Q. Yeah, I saw that. I just was trying to get an idea, and I --will come -- understand in a minute.

A. Okay.

Q. What was your understanding of what was going on in this room with Lisa Mcpherson?

A. Well, she was mentally disturbed.

Q. Okay. But what I'm trying to get at is, you know, did anybody explain where this was going or -- or what this assignment was going to be and how long it would last or anything like that?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Now, I'm a little confused between Mr. Paul Kellerhaus and Arthur Baxter.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Arthur Baxter is the Chief of Security, or was the Chief of Security at -- in November when Lisa was there?

A. Uh-huh..

Q. Was Paul Kellerhaus somebody higher than that --

A. Yes.

Q. -- then?

page 47


A. Uh-huh.

Q. Which would be what title?

A. He was the Senior Inspections and Reports.

Q. Okay. So that's above the Chief of Security?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Is Arthur Baxter still Chief of Security?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Do you know why?

A. No, not really.

Q. Not to dwell on it, I have some problems with the "not really." Do you have any idea?

A. No.

Q. Okay. What does he do now?

A. He works as -- at Security still.

Q. So he's just a Security Guard now?

A. Yes.

Q. Would this movement from being Chief of Security to just a Security Guard be a lateral transfer or would that be a demotion?

A. I don't know.

Q. All right. If you were Chief of Security and Mr. Kellerhaus told you this afternoon that you're now just a Security Guard, would you have been demoted in the chain of command?

A. It depends on the configuration inside.

page 48

Q. Well, there was --

A. Like --

Q. There was definitely a chain of command there at the time?.

A. Uh-huh. .

Q. Okay. And you're familiar with the chain of command?..

A. Uh-huh.

Q. You answered, Alfonso answered to Paul Kellerhaus, but somehow Arthur Baxter was in between there.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. So my question again would be, today, right now, in the chain of command, if you're the Chief of Security and Mr. Kellerhaus tells you you're now a Security Guard this afternoon,, is that a demotion?.

A. Well, normally would be as -- as you see

Q. I take that as a yes. A yes, right?

A. Well, the thing is that it depends. Because the configuration inside, what we have the board, if you're the Chief of Security and then you're needed in another post, it's not a -- it's not a demotion, it's just you're needed.

Q. I can see that if you're needed in a post as MLO or you were needed in ASO as a post, but if you were to stay in the same organization, okay, and become just a Security Guard, there would be no reason to need a Chief of Security

page 49

as just simply a Security Guard, so I'm just going to take that as a yes.

A. Okay.

Q. And we'll leave it at that, so we don't beat it to death. You were there for 12 hours. Now, I misunderstood, or maybe I didn't, who relieved you for the other.12 hours? ,

A. Sam Ghiora.

Q. So you weren't there together?

A. No.

Q. All right. When you would come to Sam and relieve him on -- on shift, would Sam give you a report?

A. No.

Q. Okay. So he wouldn't say anything to you of what happened on his shift for the 12 hours or any ,kind of update?

A. Yeah, he -- he would tell me what was -- the most important things that had happened --

Q. Okay.

A. -- with it.

Q. When you called on your security radio, who did that go to?

A. The office, Security Office.

Q. Security Office?

page 50

A. Yes.

Q. And then they would call back on that radio, get somebody to -- to come and help you, if you needed help?

A. Well, if I needed help.

Q. Yeah, if you needed help.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Did you, ever -- when you were on watch, did you ever see Mr. Paul Kellerhaus go into the room, Lisa's room?

A. No. Not that I remember.

Q. Okay. We talked to Valerie. Do you know Valerie?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Okay. Valerie indicates often when she made these reports up that were in here, that she gave them to the Security and specifically said that she gave them to Alfonso Barcenas.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. When she would give you these reports -- and let me go back to some -- and I'll specifically just go back to One that she wrote;

A. Uh-huh.

Q. She wrote one to SNR.

A. Uh-huh. Q.. Okay. C/S, and it would say "rush."

page 51

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Now, if you were handed that report, according to the rules and regulations of the Church, where would that report go and what would you do with it?

A. I wouldn't do anything with it, because I was there and I was -- I was not able to move. So I would just wait for somebody to come and get it.

Q. Okay. Now, did she give you reports that she wrote?

A. I remember of one time that she told me that she was going to leave it with me and that somebody was coming to get it.

Q. Okay. , Is that what happened?

A. Yeah.

Q. All right. Who came and got it?

A. I don't know the person.

Q. All right. If -- if you were handed a report, according to the regulations, if -- and I'll do it hypothetically.

A. Right.

Q. SNR C/S with a "rush" on it, what would you do with that?

A. Nothing. Nobody would give me nothing in the hand.

Q. You're in Security now?

page 52

A. Yes. ,.

Q. And you have an understanding of the mail system --

A. I do.

Q. in the Church?

A. Right....

Q. What does the SNR C/S mean to you?

A. Senior, it's Senior Case Supervisor.

Q. Who was that at the time?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know, okay.

A. But nobody would give me nothing in hand. I mean, that's not the regulations of the Church. You don't put any communication in hand to another person. You always put it into the in basket or out basket or --

Q. Well, my understanding is, if you're in Security now, that you would realize, according to the witnesses that we talked to, that if this was a rush, written on the top "rush," okay, that that would be automatically taken to that person immediately. Now, are you telling me that's not true?

A. No.

Q. Okay.

A. That's not the -- the way that communications go.

Q. Okay. So as a Security Guard outside the door,

page 53

you were not responsible for collecting these reports from these -- from the women who were taking care of her?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Do you remember what you did with that report before somebody came and got/it?

A. No. Leave it there with me.

Q. Okay. Your instructions from Paul Kellerhaus, okay, did you -- did you believe that you were into some type of Church policy and spiritual Church policy here in assisting Lisa McPherson in this room while you were there?

A. I was there just to do what I was doing, not -- not to assist her.

Q. Okay.

A. If she was -- well, I don't know. How could I assist her, other than what I was doing?

Q. All right. Your instructions from Paul Kellerhaus, if Lisa came to the door and said I want' to leave, what were your instructions?

A. Well, I didn't -- I didn't receive, any instructions on that matter. But if -- if she would come to me and say I want to leave, I would call him immediately.

Q. Would you let her leave?

A. I would call him irnmediately. I couldn't make the decision.

Q. That's not what I asked. I didn't ask -- I said,

page 54

would you let her leave? Yes or no answer, if you could.

A. No.

Q. Thank you. DETECTIVE ANDREWS: I don't have any more. AGENT STROPE: Just one quick question.


Q. We were told by a couple of the ladies that were taking care of her that they would prepare their reports daily.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And then they would put those reports in a basket in the room next door.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Are you familiar with that process?

A. Well, that the way it goes.

Q. Okay. Do you know who picked those reports up?

A. There is a person named Com Runner. He goes and' pick up all the communications.

Q. Corn, communication?

A. Communication Runner..

Q. He would go get the reports and take them to whoever they were addressed to?

A. That's how they would be taken. That's the

page 55

special carrier. ,

Q. How would it go if it was marked "rush"?

A. If it was marked "rush," it would go expeditiously. But he's the one, nobody else to do.

Q. The rules are pretty set?

A. Yes.

Q. If you want to do something, you don't have to check with your senior, everything is, pretty set in the rules?

A. Normally you know what to do. You need to know the rules.

Q. But there are very strict rules; is that right?

A. Yes, you can say so.

Q. What would happen if during this watch you deserted your post?

A. I what?

Q. You deserted your post, just took off and went to the restaurant, went to the restaurant without telling anybody.

A. I would get a really big reprimand.

Q. What would be the result of that reprimand?

A. Well, maybe hard work, like do extra things apart from my post.

Q. I see.

A. , Like go and clean dishes or

page 56

Q. Wash dishes, eh?

AGENT STROPE: I don't have anything else. Thank you.

THE WITNESS: You're welcome, sir.

* * * * * *


* * * * * *

page 57



     I, the undersigned authority, certify that the 
aforesaid deponent personally appeared before me and was
duly sworn.

          WITNESS my hand and official seal this 31st day
of March, 1977.

                    RUTH M . MARTIN, R.M.R.
                    Notary Public - State of Florida
                    Commission No. CC 277510
                    Commission Expires: 4/18/97


          I, RUTH M. MARTIN, Registered Merit Reporter,
certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
report the statement of the aforenamed deponent, and that
the transcript is a true and complete record of my
stenographic notes.

I further certify that I am not a relative, employee,
attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a
relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
interested in the action.

          DATED this 31st day of March, 1997.