Interview with Janis Johnson
| Date: | May 29, 1996 |
| Pages: | 67 |
| Det. Sudler: | Today's date is 5/29/96. The time is 9:35 a.m. This is gonna be an interview with Janis Johnson concerning the Lisa McPherson investigation. present during the interview is myself (Det. Ron Sudler), Det. Carolyn asquillo, Attorney Bob Johnson, and Janis Johnson. |
| Det. Sudler: | For the record Janis, could you state your name, date of birth, and address? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. Janis Johnson ... spelled J A N I S. Johnson the usual way. Date of birth is X/56. And address is 503 Cleveland..Clear ... it's Clearwater. |
| Det. Sudler: | Clearwater ... okay. Okay. And you're aware of the circumstances of our investigation into Lisa McPherson's death. And I think Det. Carrasquillo has talked to you before..you know ... briefly. And what we'd like to do is - just go over some things and find out ... you know..when the first time that you met Lisa and ... you know ... some of the background about her and her health background. And ... you know ... just basic questions that ... you know ... we want to ask you and just try to clarify some things that came up in our investigation. |
| Johnson: | Okay. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. I understand when ... well, let me clear myself. What is your position with the church over there?. Do you ... what is your title or ... or your job or your function at the church? |
| Johnson: | I'm in a department that takes care of staff enhancement. |
| Det. Sudler: | Staff enhancement? |
| Johnson: | Right. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | So there are a number of different things that ... that I do. At the present time I'm a word clearer in the staff college. I need to explain it to you a little bit. Do |
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| you know what ... what I mean by word clearer? | |
| Det. Sudler: | Umm ... I think Paul Greenwood mentioned a little bit about that in his interview. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | If there's a word that's ... |
| Johnson: | A word that's not understood can interfere with someone's ability to do their ... their job..or to understand what they're reading. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | And I spot those and get them cleared up ... get people moving. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay ... alright. And that's ... that's what you currently do now? |
| Johnson: | Yes. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. Umm ... how long have you been with the organization? |
| Johnson: | Since March of 95. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Are you from Florida originally or ... ? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Where are you from? |
| Johnson: | I grew up in. Washington State. |
| Det. Sudler: | Washington. |
| Johnson: | Exactly opposite. |
| Det. Sudler: | Came across the country ... yeah. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | From raining three times a day to sunshine and heat. |
| Johnson: | Actually it was the eastern side of the state. It was..it was semi-arid in the mountains. |
| Det. Sudler: | Yeah. Okay. And you ... what is your background? Do you ... you know ... I understand that you were a practicing physician at one time. |
| Johnson: | Yeah ... yeah. I ... I studied medicine at Wayne State in Detroit. |
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| Det. Sudler: | Wayne State in Detroit. |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I went on to a residency in anesthesia and sub-specialty in chronic pain. And then took a position at the University of New Mexico teaching. And from there I went into private practice in Tucson, Arizona about eight years. |
| Det. Sudler: | In anesthesiology? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. I was in an anesthesia group. What I was doing was chronic pain control. |
| Det. Sudler: | I guess that's a pretty lucrative thing now ... you know..with chronic pain control. |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | I guess that's one of the top deals to get into is pain management. I know I see a lot of stuff on it ... on TV and ... |
| Johnson: | Oh really? |
| Det. Sudler: | Yeah ... yeah. It wasn't there? |
| Johnson: | It wasn't in Arizona ... .no. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Had mostly medicare type cancerpatients. |
| Det. Sudler: | Yeah. |
| Johnson: | You know ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Pretty depressing work there. |
| Johnson: | Yeah, it wasn't ... it was something that not very many people wanted to do. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Sothat ... you had your ... you went to college in Detroit and then you finished up in Arizona and ... |
| Johnson: | No, I finished my.education in Detroit. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. But you were in private practice in Arizona? |
| Johnson: | Right ... |
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| Det. Sudler: | Okay. With an anesthesia group and also specializing in chronic pain control. |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And when was that? |
| Johnson: | It was from 87 to about 94 ... no 93 ... in 93. The last two years I was ... I was actually ... I was in Arizona for eight years, but the last two years I was running a different business. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I actually quit medicine in early 93. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So you quit practicing in early 93? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And I guess would you refer to yourself as retired now from the practice or..? |
| Johnson: | Well, I just did other things. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Okay. |
| Johnson: | I wouldn't say I retired. I just ... you know ... went on and did other things that I was interested in. |
| Det. Sudler: | Change of profession. |
| Johnson: | Yes, change of profession. That's a good way to put it. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. Umm ... so from 93 up until March of 95, you were self employed? |
| Johnson: | Yes, I had my own business. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay ... okay. And what type of business would that be? |
| Johnson: | I was selling alternative health care products ... herbal water filters ... air filters. And I also worked with research and development on medical products. And getting ... getting good new products to the market. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And I guess that kinda brings us up to |
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| today. When ... and you moved into the Clearwater area in March of 95 or ... ? | |
| Johnson: | Yeah, later February or early March. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And then what position did you take here? Were you self employed here? Did you have a. business here ... the same type of business? |
| Johnson: | No..no, I came here to come on staff with the church. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So you ... you came on staff? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And what was your position then? |
| Johnson: | Well, initially it was medical liaison office ... officer I guess you'd say ... officer. |
| Det. Sudler: | Officer? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And what does that job do? |
| Johnson: | Act as a liaison between the staff and the medical medical services in the community so that people get what they need. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | It's also ... like this office consists of a band aid station as well ... you know. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Basic first aid. But there's vitamins ... nothing more than that. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So just basic first aid ... umm ... vitamins ... and referral. So a scenario would be if ... and this is for staff persons only or ... ? |
| Johnson: | Thereis ... youknow ... there is one ... one little area that serves public. We have a lot of people come in -.fromout of town or from out of the country who, if they get sick or they lose a filling, they don't have a clue where to go. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay ... |
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| Johnson: | So they ... there is a..a person that will be available to public people to also give them a list of names ... okay. These are people that ... you know ... others have gone to and been happy with. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And your job then would be to coordinate that with the local ... |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | You know ... practitioners in this area. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. And provide transportation and get them there. Make sure that ... I mean ... if they go to a doctor and they're given a prescription ... you know ... they generally go back to rest and somebody else ... you know ... in the office does the running around and goes and picks up their prescriptions ... makes sure that they understand the directions ... that they're taking the ... the medication right. Just ... just basically getting along. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. So if someone came in. for minor cold symptoms or aches and pains or something like that ... |
| Johnson: | Yeah ... |
| Det. Sudler: | You would just ... you know ... kinda steer them in the right direction. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. Say "Hey" ... you know ... "Are you taking your vitamins" ... you know. "Are you getting enough rest?" "Go get some extra rest". That kind of thing. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. And1 how many people were on staff or doing this referral? Were you I guess the medical liaison officer ... was that your responsibility? Did you have anybody under you or was anybody over you? Johnson:. I had two people under me. Of course I had lots of people over me. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
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| Johnson: | Yeah. Umm ... two.. I had two people under me to help out and to..you know ... like do the ... a lot of the running around and get ... get people taken different places. I didn't do a whole lot of that but at times I had to do that too. You have ... you know ... three people and they have appointments different places at the same time ... well, you're all running ... you know ... -doing that. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | So it just..it depends ... it was ... it was real flexible. We just basically did whatever we had to do to get ... to get everybody taken care of and keep everything running. We're looking out ... we're looking out for ... you know ... between 1,000 and 2,000 people. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. You didn't have much spare time then? |
| Johnson: | No. It was..it was rather frantic. |
| Det. Sudler: | So you made sure you got your rest and vitamins too. Okay. Sounds like it was busy. Umm ... did.so you had two assistants under you at the time? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Would Laura be one of them ... Laura Arrunada? |
| Johnson: | Well actually, she was under ... under Suzanne. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | At the time. The ... the structure ... you want me draw up the structure of how the ... the office went ... I mean ... - who was..who was ... |
| Det. Sudler: | If that's easier. |
| Johnson: | Well, yeah ... it just had ... we just had a medical office manager ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay.. - |
| Johnson: | An assistant manager. There's me and then I had ... I had two people under me. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Assistant ... |
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| Johnson: | And Laura was technically in the position of assistant office manager at the time. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | But ... you know ... she ... she was ... had a good deal of.. of training so..you know.. she would just help out with whatever had to be done. It was just the fact that she spoke mostly spanish and her language wasn't quite up to doing some things. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So Laura was an assistant office manager. |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | And there were two people that were assistants under you ... .directly under your ... originally were a part of that two. Was she included in the two that was under you? |
| Johnson: | No..no. |
| Det. Sudler: | She was included under the medical office manager assistant? |
| Johnson: | Yeah ... yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. - |
| Johnson: | She was basically ... technically under Suzanne. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Suzanne ... what's her last name? |
| Johnson: | Uh ... Green. Was Schnuremberger but she got married and it's Green. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. - Easier to spell. |
| Johnson: | Yeah, much easier. |
| Det. Sudler: | NurÈrnberger? |
| Johnson: | Schnuremberger ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Schnurernberger ... Johnson:- Yes. S C H ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And then the assistant manager for her ... was that Laura's position? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. And then your assistants were? |
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| Johnson: | Judy Goldsberry-Weber ... |
| Det. Sudler: | And ... |
| Johnson: | Well, my other assistant is in Hungary. She ... she's -- not ... no longer ... she's no longer on staff ... she's not here anymore. |
| Det. Sudler: | But her ... at the time her name was ... ? |
| Johnson: | Ildiko ... I L D I K O. |
| Det. Sudler: | 1L D I K 0. |
| Johnson: | K 0 ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Ildiko? |
| Johnson: | Cannovas. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. C A ... |
| Johnson: | NNOVAS ... |
| Det. Sudler: | C A N N ... |
| Johnson: | O V A S. |
| Det. Sudler: | O V A S. Okay. Alright ... common spelling. |
| Johnson: | I guess if you're Hungarian. |
| Det. Sudler: | Umm ... so that's pretty much the ... the ... I guess the main service of your office there ... the medical part of it. |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. If somebody came in with a health problem thatwas ... that required medical treatment or referral - to a physician or a dentist or an emergency health care facility, was there anyone that you selected ... you know ... on a routine basis like a preferred.. pre ... - - preferred provider type health care facility? |
| Johnson: | Not ... I mean.-..not in the terms ... not in the ... in the way of ... you know ... like a PPO type thing ... you know. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | No, not in that way. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | There were particular doctors that everyone seemed |
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| to like and seemed to give a diagnosis and good treatment and didn't require going back a bunch of times because they messed up once or twice trying to figure it out. | |
| Det. Sudler: | So it's like the basis of an HMO? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | An HMO. |
| Johnson: | Yeah ... I mean ... just like any ... just like anybody would choose a doctor ... you know. If you went to a doctor and they ... you know ... were ... you know.. they weren't ... their personality didn't fit with yours or you felt like they weren't giving you ... you know ... really fast good care ... you wouldn't- go back. I mean ... it's just the same thing. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. Umrn ... if somebody came to you - with a ... a broken wrist ... broken arm ... where would they be referred to? To the physician or to an - Emergency Room- or clinic or ... ? |
| Johnson: | No ... I mean ... it would depend ... you know ... it would..it would depend if it was just like the ... rnaybe the suspicion that ... you know ... they clunked it hard ... the suspicion that it's ... that it's broken. I mean ... you know ... been ... you would probably wait until the next day and go to the Walk-In Clinic and get an X-Ray. I mean ... if they were in severe pain or if it was obvious it was broken, of course -they'd go to the Emergency Room. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | And just corn ... common sense. |
| Det. Sudler: | Just ... okay. But you've used the hospitals in this area I take it? |
| Johnson: | Oh yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Morton Plant -and the Walk-In Clinics? |
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| Johnson: | Yeah. Usually ... yeah usually Morton Plant for - emergency ... emergency service of a ... like if somebody has an infection or a broken bone. Sometimes Clearwater ... it depends where Moskovitz ... you know.. he would ... he usually will jump up even if he's not on call and ... and take care of the staff. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | So yeah ... if he's working at Clearwater Community that night, then we go to Clearwater Community. It just ... you know ... it just depends. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | A lot of guys travel from place to place and they take calls at one place or another. |
| Det. Sudler: | Yeah. I've seen the physicians do that a lot. They kind of have three or four different hospitals. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. So you call up and you see ... you know ... call - their answering service ... you find out where-they are and go from there. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. So that's pretty much been your ... I guess a..a description of your job duties there as the medical liaison officer. |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | Was there anything else that you did? |
| Johnson: | I basically just ... just coordinated things. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. Was there any ... did you do any- like nutrition counseling or. or health counseling or anything like that? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Involving any diet or exercise programs or any ... |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Like health maintenance type work? |
| Johnson: | Well, there ... there is ... there is a schedule where - -- ... you know ... everyone exercises twenty minutes a |
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| day on a schedule. But that's ... I don't devise a - program. | |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I'm not much of an expert at exercise. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. But if somebody wanted to come to you for let's say a low fat/low cholesterol diet, would they come to your office under the medical ... |
| Johnson: | Well no, I'd say that's ... actually that's provided. We have a ... you know ... a dining facility and that's provided for them. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | If they need a ... a diabetic diet or a low fat diet, they just ... they can get that there. They don't have to come to me. |
| Det. Sudler: | So they wouldn't necessarily come to you for a specific problem ... you know ... that ... that you would address other than a referral. |
| Johnson: | Yeah, that's ... that's basically what ... that's what the office -is ... it's a liaison office and a band aid - station. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. When was the first time that you - I guess met or got to know Lisa McPherson? |
| Johnson: | The first time I actually had any direct contact - - with her was the end of ... the end of November. |
| Det. Sudler: | -And that's in 95? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And what was the nature of that contact? - Did she come to your office or was that just a ... a social type ... ? |
| Johnson: | No, she didn't ... she didn't come to the office. Suzanne, the medical office manager at the-time, was - ... was ... had ... knew her from somewhere. I mean ... they were ... they were acquainted. |
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| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Okay. And you met Lisa through Suzanne? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. Were you aware or did Lisa come to -you at anytime while you were a medical liaison officer for any referral for any health problems she was having? |
| Johnson: | No. I didn't generally-see public people. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I would occasionally ... I mean ... if there was ... you know ... a lot to be done and I wasn't busy with staff ... which wasn't very often ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I would help out ... you know. But that didn't happen to often. Usually I was pretty swamped just trying to handle the staff. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So someone I guess you would refer to as public they're just not on staff at the church? |
| Johnson: | Oh yeah ... yeah. Public means someone who is a - parishioner ... you know.. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | That's ... that's what you'd call them. But they aren't on staff with the organization. |
| Det. Sudler: | So if ... so there wouldn't be I guess any reason - - to use your services. They would just have their own physicians and do everything on their own. |
| Johnson: | Well yeah ... I mean ... somebody that lives here. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Would know the doctors in the area. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. I mean ... unless they just moved here and - they..you know ... didn't have any ... any contacts. Then most people..if they're moving here ... they'd - talk around other people and say "Well, who do you go to?" and ... you know..how people find ... find doctors usually is just by talking to somebody else. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So she hadn't come into the office while you were |
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| there as far as you know for any referrals? | |
| Johnson: | Not when I was in the office. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. Were you aware of any of Lisa's medical background or medical history? |
| Johnson: | Well, only just secondhand ... you know.. from hearing.from hearing Suzanne talk. |
| Det. Sudler: | And what was the nature of that? |
| Johnson: | She told me that she occasionally would have trouble sleeping and go.. she'd go days without sleeping. And then ... you know ... she'd get pretty wound up. And when she didn't sleep, then she'd also not ... not want to eat. So it was kind of a ... would be a vicious cycle. So - ... you know ... you just ... if she can just calm down and sleep for a night, then this all ... she could, if everything straightens out, get back to normal. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And then Suzanne told you about this. During - - what period of time? Was that around the end of - November or around that same time? |
| Johnson: | Yeah, that was the week before Thanksgiving. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Was Lisa doing anything for her insomnia or ... - you know ... was she taking anything or ... ? |
| Johnson: | Well, I know that she took some kind of herbal thing. |
| Det. Sudler: | A pill or ... ? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. Some kind of thing you like get at the health food store. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Was that recommended by Suzanne or just - something Lisa did on her own? |
| Johnson: | No. Nobody in the ... nobody in the medical office makes recommendations like that. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. - Alright. So she was taking just something - for a sleep aid ... an herbal sleep aid? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh ... yeah, as far as I know. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Umm ... you know of any other medical problems |
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| that she had? | |
| Johnson: | That was all I had heard about. And of course this was just secondhand that I ... that I heard about this. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Any psychological problems that she had that you were aware of? |
| Johnson: | Well, I was told by Suzanne that she could get ... you know ... arid pretty weird when she hadn't slept for a while. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | But other than that, no. |
| Det. Carrasq: | What could cause that? |
| Johnson: | Huh? |
| Det. Carrasq: | What could cause that ... her getting so wound up? Did Suzanne have any idea? |
| Johnson: | Well, I guess some ... .I..I've learned all about this ... I mean ... secondhand since. But this is ... this is the way I heard the story. Was that some.some things had not been going well ... you know ... at ... at work or in her life ... you know ... that ... that.things weren't going too smoothly and she was upset and she didn't sleep for a while and things kinda went from bad to worse. And she just needed to take a break and just chill out and rest and get - away from everything for a little bit. |
| Det. Carrasq: | From like anxiety or something? |
| Johnson: | Yeah ... yeah ... just ... yeah, just ... just got wound up enough that ... I guess it didn't take as much to get - - her upset and wound up and not sleep as maybe it would.you know ... another person. So Iguess she had a little trouble sleeping to begin with. And if things weren't going well in life, then ... you know ... she'd - probably sit and think about it ... and hard to get to sleep. |
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| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Would ... did Suzanne have any medical background or ... ? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | She was just a manager? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Umm ... what else can you tell me about Lisa? |
| Johnson: | Umm ... I know that she didn't particularly eat well off and on and her nutritional state probably wasn't real great. She was..she was very thin ... I mean ... - even from the time that she arrived she was real thin ... didn't have any extra insulation. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Do you know if she had any eating disorders.. you know ... like bulimia or anything like that? Did - anybody, mention anything like that? |
| Johnson: | Not that I ... not that I know of. It's definitely a possibility. |
| Det. Sudler: | But nothing that you were aware of? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Ummm ... so how long did you know Lisa..from just that month or so ... around November? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. I guess a couple of weeks. |
| Det. Sudler: | A couple of weeks? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Did she have any like great fluctuation of weight - that you were able to observe during that period of time? |
| Johnson: | Well, yeah. I did notice ... from the time that I - ... that I first saw her..yeah ... she was already - thin but she was definitely thinner. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | It was more than thin. She just ... she looked really |
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| dehydrated. Now, what I had heard was that, in that.that last 24 hours ... that she had developed some - very severe diarrhea and that's how I imagine she became so dehydrated so fast. | |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Were you ... when did you become aware of the accident that Lisa was involved in and her activities that night? |
| Johnson: | The ... what ... which..I'm not sure what we're talking about. What ... what night? |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Lisa was involved in a..a motor vehicle - accident, -okay. |
| Johnson: | Yeah, sometime in November. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Were you..were you aware of that ... did you hear about it or ... ? |
| Johnson: | Well, I did hear that ... that she had had some accident and she was shaken up about it and that's - why she was there ... you know ... just..she was just - there in the hotel to rest and to chill out. So yeah, I was ... yeah, I was told that she had been to the hospital and that she had been checked out and she wasn't injured ... that she was ... she was okay. And -also that she had been checked out psychologically- to make sure that she ... you know ... wasn't any real - danger to herself or someone else ... that she was just upset and ... you know ... she was with it. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | And I guess she was checked out at Morton Plant and they did determine that she was okay and they released - her. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And then she went to the church? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | To relax I guess? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
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| Det. Sudler: | Alright. The period before this that you ... I guess you just knew her through I guess casual acquaintance through Suzanne you knew Lisa or ... ? |
| Johnson: | No. Before that I didn't even know ... I didn't even - know really ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So ... |
| Johnson: | I never met her. |
| Det. Sudler: | Well, just to put a perspective of time, you didn't meet Lisa until after this accident or before it? |
| Johnson: | Yeah, until after it. |
| Det. Sudler: | Until after her accident ... okay. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. I'm not sure when the accident was, but it was definitely after ... it was a few ... she'd probably been there at the hotel for maybe ... when was it that she got there? |
| Det. Sudler: | Well, the accident was in the latter part of November ... I think the 18th of November when she had the - accident. |
| Johnson: | Okay. So this was like probably five days later when - I ... when I firstsaw her ... yeah ... mid ... midweek. I just remember it was the week before Thanksgiving. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. That was your first meeting with Lisa then? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And at that first meeting, how did she appear to you physically? |
| Johnson: | Well ... well, she was thin but she was ... she was real wound up ... real' agitated. She'd sit down for a little bit and she'd get up and she'd pace and she ... you know - ... just seemed to be like real nervous. Agitated is the best ... best description I have. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. - ; |
| Johnson: | And -she'd get up and she'd walk around and she'd ... - you know ... go into ... go into the bathroom. She'd |
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| come back, in ... you know ... she just ... you know ... just non-stop motion. | |
| Det. Carrasq: | Did you ask her what was wrong? |
| Johnson: | No, I'm ... I ... I didn't even ... you know ... I wasn't even there except just with Suzanne. And I didn't ... I just let Suzanne be with her. She ... she knew her. And I ... I felt a little ... well ... Lisa was a little hostile toward anybody that had anything to do with the medical profession. So no, I did not ... you know ... I'm ... I was kind of ... SIDE TWO OF TAPE ONE |
| Johnson: | This ... I had this tag on that said ... you know ... said "Medical Officer". And as soon as she saw that tag, it was like ... you know ... she ... she was not pleased that I was around. So I pretty much just kept my distance and didn't engage her in conversation. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I..I heard some of the things that she was ... you - know ... saying about not being pleased with doctors. |
| Det. Sudler: | So you had a tag on that said "Medical Officer" on it? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And ... and Lisa saw that and I guess became - verbally abusive to medical people- ... |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. |
| Johnson: | So no, I didn't go out of my way to engage - her in conversation. |
| Det. Sudler: | Umm ... this first meeting took place where? |
| Johnson: | That was in her room there at the Ft. Harrison. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. You remember what room that was? |
Page 20
| Johnson: | I don't specifically remember the number. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. - Do you remember what part of the building it was located in? |
| Johnson: | Yeah, the cabanas. |
| Det. Sudler: | Where is that at? |
| Johnson: | Well, that',s like a row along the ... the back side of the ... I' think the street's Osceola. |
| Det. Sudler: | The two-story part? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Okay Was she on the top or the bottom? |
| Johnson: | The bottom part. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Was there ... was she alone in the room? |
| Johnson: | Well, at that time Suzanne was..was..was there also. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | We had gone over there together. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Did ... did you go, over there ... for what reason? |
| Johnson: | Just to ... you know ... make sure everything was okay - because Suzanne had expressed some ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Some concerns. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | And she was worried about her. |
| Det. Sudler: | So you and Suzanne went ... went together? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh..yeah ... just to see if there was anything that she needed. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Umm ... and this was you'd say about five days after the accident..the middle of that week? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Just before Thanksgiving? |
| Johnson: | Yeah, it was the-week before Thanksgiving. I think it was around Wednesday. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Umm ... soSuzanne told you that Lisa was I guess |
Page 21
| having some problems and she was concerned and you went to the room with her. | |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | What was-Lisa's room like? Was it orderly? Was it neat?- Was it ... I guess she was agitated ... was there any ... |
| Johnson: | The bed..there were two beds. One bed wasn't made. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Umm ... otherwise it looked okay. I mean..there was..there was a tray ... you know ... like a room service - tray sitting-on the dresser. I mean ... it wasn't like totally cleaned up but it wasn't gross or anything ... you know ... it wasn't trashed. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | There were like vitamins ... you know ... sitting out - on the dresser. Her clothes were hung up. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | The towels might have been ... towels thrown around in the, bathroom. |
| Det. Carrasq: | What was she wearing? |
| Johnson: | She was wearing like a night shirt ... kinda like a really long tee shirt. - -- |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Her personal effects seemed to be in order? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. And they were folded up on the shelf above the coat hangers and some things were hanging up. |
| Det. Sudler: | Did she have any luggage with her? |
| Johnson: | I don't remember seeing a suitcase. |
| Det. Carrasq: | What time of day was it? |
| Johnson: | That was in the afternoon ... probably 1 or 2 o'clock. |
| Det. Carrasq: | Had she been out that day or ... ? |
| Johnson: | I ... I really don't know. I just ... I just walked - in there for five minutes. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Umm..so her mental health was agitated ... |
Page 22
| something was bothering her obviously? | |
| Johnson: | Yeah, most definitely. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Umm ... did ... did she respond to you ... you or Suzanne ... you know.. in a positive way after that? |
| Johnson: | Oh yeah ... oh yeah ... she was..she was friendly with Suzanne ... yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Just not to you? |
| Johnson: | No. She didn't know me ... you know..so ... she knew that I was ... you know ... she associated me with something medical. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Did ... did you offer any advice to her at that time or anything? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. She just didn't want-to do ... have anything to do with any doctors? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Definitely not. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. What about her physical health? How did she look? |
| Johnson: | I thought she looked okay. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | She.. |
| Det. Sudler: | She was thin you were saying. |
| Johnson: | Oh yeah ... yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. But it didn't look like she hadbeen vomiting or ... you know ... sick or anything like that? |
| Johnson: | No ... I mean ... there was no-characteristic smell in - the room to where I could say "Yeah, there was something going on here". |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Nothing like that. |
| Det. Sudler: | So she was just agitated. Did she talk about |
Page 23
| her sleep or anything at that time? | |
| Johnson: | Yeah, she..well, she went ... she and Suzanne went back in the bathroom.- I was ... I was sitting out in the.'.. in the main room. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | And they went and had a conversation. - And Suzanne told me later ... "Well ... you know ... she hasn't ... she hasn't really slept for like two days now ... she's - ... she's been trying to sleep all morning ... she was lying there trying to get to sleep and it just hasn't been working out". So all the information I pretty much got secondhand from ... from Suzanne. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. You didn't talk to Lisa ... Suzanne did? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So Lisa didn't communicate with you? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Accept to yell at you. What was ... what was your feelings ... I mean..did you express anything to Suzanne about Lisa's ... you know.'.well being? |
| Johnson: | Oh yeah ... I definitely did ... you know. "She needs.she needs to get ... she needs to get to sleep". |
| Det. Sudler: | Uh Huh. -: |
| Johnson: | And Suzanne said "Yeah" ... you know ... "She always gets this always gets better and he gets back -to normal - as soon as the sleeping thing gets smoothed out". |
| Det. Sudler: | Did she take anything like over the counter sleeping aids or anything like that? |
| Johnson: | Well, that herbal thing was the only thing that ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Did you see that there at the ... ? |
| Johnson: | Yeah, I did. It was there ... it was ... it was there - on the ... on the dresser. |
| Det. Sudler: | Do you remember what that's called? |
| Johnson: | Umm ... .I can ... I recognize the smell. It's valarian |
Page 24
| root. It's ... I could smell it. It's very strong ... a very strong smell. Sol know that that at least had valarian root in it. I don't know what else it had in it. | |
| Det. Sudler: | Is that in a..a tablet form or ... or how ... do you know - how it's normally taken? |
| Johnson: | Shoot, they can ... they can be tablets ... they can be capsules. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I don't know exactly which one it was. |
| Det. Sudler: | Was it liquid? |
| Johnson: | I don't think so. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | No, it was like a little ... a little bottle ... you know. It wouldn't be liquid in a little bottle like that. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. So you-didn't talk to Lisa at all during that - time? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Was there any plan -or course of action that you and Suzanne talked about if she didn't sleep or she didn't get any better? |
| Johnson: | Well, the ... the plan was to just have the people around there in the hotel just give her some extra attention ... you know ... check and make sure if there - was anything special she wanted to eat ... that they went out of their way and they got it for her. |
| Det. Sudler: | Now who ... |
| Johnson: | I remember she was into tuna fish sandwiches, so they ... they would bring her tuna fish sandwiches at odd hours of the day and night when she felt like ... you know ... "Okay ... yeah ... I want to eat" ... you know. They ... they'd go out of their way and they'd bring |
Page 25
| her extra stuff. | |
| Det. Sudler: | Was she not eating regular meals? |
| Johnson: | It was ... it was sporadic. She'd ... this was the reports that I got anyway ... you know ... from hearing from this person or that person. I'd kind of walk around the place and make rounds and check on this person and that person. I would ask ... you know ... and find out what was going on. And ... you know ... - sometimes I'd get reports "No, she really hasn't eaten anything today ... she's just drinking a few protein shakes". And other days she was ... you know ... eating normally. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Who would be I guess in charge of bringing her food? Would she order it from like a room service thing? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh ... .yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | You know. -..or go out to ... you know ... one of the -.the hotel's ... the hotel restaurants or ... you know. I'm not' sure exactly where she was getting her meals, but I did ... I'd say the time that I was.yeah ... the time I was there, there was a tray there. She must have been having some of the food brought in as well as those extra snacks. |
| Det. Sudler: | Well, since she was kinda brought there ... you know - ... obviously in some type of crisis ... you know ... after - her accident ... would there be anybody -that would bring - her three meals a day or just ... you know ... as a routine thing ... you know ... to.'.. just to check on her or - anything? |
| Johnson: | I'm not sure ... I mean ... I know that there were ... there were people that were just ... you know ... checking up on her and making sure that ... |
Page 26
| Det. Sudler: | Do you know who would be in charge of looking after her while she was there to make sure she was doing alright? |
| Johnson: | I don't know that anybody would be just..you - - know ... looking after her specifically. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Just her friends? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. She knew a heck of a lot of people. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. There wouldn't be anything specifically that ... you know ... since ... when she was checked out of Morton Plant Hospital ... that there wouldn't be anybody assigned to her to assist her like ... you know ... with anything that she needs ... rneals or ... you know ... |
| Johnson: | Not like-one particular person to do that ... no. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So she was kind of on her own? |
| Johnson: | Oh yeah ... you know ... she was a hotel guest. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | It's true we gave her some ... a little bit of extra special service as far as ... you know ... people just checking up on her and offering her this and offering her that. But ... you know ... nothing ... nothing like that. |
| Det. Sudler: | Who checked up on her ... on ... you know ... on a routine basis? |
| Johnson: | Oh ... I mean.. Suzanne would pop in and see her ... you - know ... just to make sure everything was fine. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | And I did ... I did one day speak to the cleaning staff ... - you know ... the people that were responsible for that wing ... and just say ... you know ... "Hey ... just ... you know ... bring her whatever ... I don't care it it's outside of the normal hours that you would normally - do this" ... you know ... "Just ... " ... you know ... "Just - take care of her and just do a little extra for her". |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Det. Carrasq: | Their kitchen staffed 24 hours? People cooking so she |
Page 27
| get food? | |
| Johnson: | It can be ... it can be arranged. It's not usual, but I did ask them to ... you know ... "Hey, if at 11:00 she wants a tuna fish sandwich, get it for her". |
| Det. Sudler: | At this time, did she have any other ... I mean ... did she have diarrhea at this time or profound weight loss or any problems that you knew of? |
| Johnson: | Not that I knew of. I didn't hear anything about diarrhea till the ... the last 24 hours. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay ... alright. So when did you ... you said that ... that visit lasted about five minutes. |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. When was the -next time that you saw Lisa? |
| Johnson: | Umm ... probably a couple of days later. |
| Det. Sudler: | And what was the nature of that? Was it just to check up on her? |
| Johnson: | Yeah ... same thing. |
| Det. Sudler: | Who went with you then? |
| Johnson: | Nobody went with me then. I was just out and about - by myself. |
| Det. Sudler: | How did she take to you at that time? |
| Johnson: | Not real great, but ... you know ... I felt like' I I had to at least go and check and make sure everything was fine. But I ... , |
| Det. Sudler: | She was verbally abusive? |
| Johnson: | No. She,was just stand-off ish ... -you know. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. - - |
| Det. Carrasq: | Did you still have your pin on? |
| Johnson: | I took it off at that time. I peeled-it off and put it inmy pocket. It seemed to help. |
| Det. Sudler: | Did ... did she talk to you about her ... you know ... her health or condition at that time? |
| Johnson: | No. |
Page 28
| Det. Sudler: | Did she say how she was doing or anything? |
| Johnson: | Oh, that ... that's right. I asked her if there was anything I could get for her ... you know ... just trying to ... you know ... do something ... do something nice for - - her and ... yÛu know..show her that I wasn't ... I wasn't out to get her. And she was out of..she was out of her powdered vitamins. It was ... it's called Vita Mix. So I went and I offered to ... you know ... go pick up some at the canteen there. It's a little shop that's within the - hotel. And I did go and I got the Vita Mix for her and brought it back ... you know. That's..that was the second.. second time I saw her. |
| Det. Sudler: | INAUDIBLE. Had she been eating more that day? |
| Johnson: | There was a ... there was an empty tray there. So I.I know she had eaten something. |
| Det. Sudler: | Was she still as agitated as she had been? |
| Johnson: | No, she was ... she was looking better that day. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | She was looking ... looking more calm. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | And she was ... she was friendlier after I brought the Vita Mix back. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. Did she ask anything else or ... ? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. Had she improved in your opinion? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. She looked ... she looked like things were - moving in the right direction. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Was she..how..was she ... how was she clothed? - Was she dressed or still in a night shirt or ... .? |
| Johnson: | She was wearing ... she was wearing jeans and a tee - - shirt but not a real long tee shirt ... you know. It - was just a regular length tee shirt. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. But they looked clean ... they weren't soiled or |
Page 29
| anything like that? | |
| Johnson: | No. I mean ... they looked ... they looked casual but fine. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Are there ... you know ... TV's ... a radio ... or anything in the room? Was she ... you know ... looked like she was having a good time or was she kinda withdrawn and ... you know ... ? - Johnson': No. I can't say she looked like she was having a good time. |
| Det. Sudler: | Uh Huh. |
| Johnson: | But she definitely didn't look as agitated and wound up as she had the day ... a couple of days ... - you know ... before. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. What-would she do for relaxation at the hotel? |
| Johnson: | I really don't know. |
| Det. Sudler: | She didn't ... you know ... she wasn't laying out by the pool or ... you know ... doing anything like that ... I mean ... you know ... was she just trying to stay in the ... was she reading or ... you know..watching TV or doing anything or was she just too wound up to do that? |
| Johnson: | The first day she was definitely so wound that ... you know ... |
| Det. Sudler: | She didn't go out? |
| Johnson: | I don't think so, but I ... again ... you know ... I was - only there for five minutes. - I can't say for sure - what she did in the meantime ... in between. |
| Det. Sudler: | Did you see her out and about in maybe the restaurants - or at the hotel or anything? |
| Johnson: | Umm ... not during those days. I don't remember ... I don't remember seeing her. |
| Det. Sudler: | Did ... you don't remember seeing her out. Do you know if she left the room at anytime to go out or ... ? |
| Johnson: | I don't know.. |
Page 30
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I don't know where ... you know ... where exactly she was during most of the day. I would usually ... if I was gonna pop in, the time of day that fit with my schedule the best was ... you know ... usually around 4:00. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | So that was usually when I would be making my trip around that area. |
| Det. Carrasq: | Did she mention that she had been anywhere? |
| Johnson: | Mostly I would just ask other people that were around rather than asking her because she didn't like being asked ... if things weren't going well especially ... you know ... she didn't ... didn't want anyone to ask her about ... you know ... how things were going. And - - ... and so I just ... you know ... .would get reports from -. other people that knew her better and ... you know ... that she would confide in. She still wasn't particularly - friendly toward me or didn't see me as being.. you know.one of her buddies that she would talk freely with. |
| Det. Carrasq: | Would the other people- tell you? |
| Johnson: | Oh yeah, they ... they'd tell me ... you know ... "Oh yeah. - you know ... she did fine last night or she only slept - - three hours or she didn't sleep at al-i" ... I mean ... - those were the kind of ... you know ... reports that I would get. And it varied from day to day. |
| Det. Sudler: | So at that second -visit, she seemed to be improving to you? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. She looked ... she definitely looked better. |
| Det. Sudler: | Was any of the other staff checking on-her on a regular basis? - - |
| Johnson: | Like I said, I know ... I know that Suzanne was ... yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Umm ... alright. When ... I guess ... and when would be the |
Page 31
| next time that you saw her? | |
| Johnson: | Ummm ... I think on the average I probably popped in about every other day. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. - And how long was she there? Do you know how long her stay was ... I mean ... approximately? |
| Johnson: | No. Let's see ... you said she came on the 18th ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Yeah. |
| Johnson: | Well, then the 18th ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Then ... so that two week period of time ... two or three weeks. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | So you saw her about every other day? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Did you ... were you accompanied by anybody - or ... you know ... ? |
| Johnson: | At one time I was with Suzanne. And one other time I was with Suzanne. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | That was ... otherwise I'd just ... I was out walking - around alone and I just popped in when I could. |
| Det. Sudler: | Umm ... did Lisa ... her overall physical condition ... how was it ... I mean ... did she have any injuries or - anything that ... you know ... developed and presented - - itself after her accident that you might have noticed? |
| Johnson: | Yeah, it was the week of Thanksgiving ... week of - - "Thanksgiving I noticed ... I noticed that ... that she had - - bruises. I think it was the Wednesday before Thanksgiving ... or Tuesday or Wednesday.. -. one of those - days ... Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday. And the story I hadgotten from Suzanne was that she had had about a ten minute episode of being -like really wild and that she-was like ... you know ... pounding on tables and she was - kicking ... you know ... kicking furniture. |
Page 32
| Det. Carrasq: | In that cabana room? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh ... yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Was this ... |
| Johnson: | I think Suzanne must have been with her then and just ... you know ... just ... she said she had to ... had to physically just ... you know ... give her a good strong hug and get her settled down. And then after ten minutes she kinda came back to normal again but that she was ... you know ... she was just ... you know ... kicking stuff and hitting stuff and acting pretty wild there for a few minutes. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Det. Carrasq: | What was that rage over? |
| Johnson: | I don't know. |
| Det. Sudler: | When ... when was that? Was that initially after she arrived or later on in-her stay? |
| Johnson: | That was like ... well, it was either Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday the week of Thanksgiving that ... that Suzanne told me about that. So it had to have been some ... it had to have been in that ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Close to her arrival. |
| Johnson: | Yeah, in that ... well, in that ... that time frame. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Because I hadn't ... you know ... it was ... I think ... I'm pretty sure it was Wednesday. |
| Det. Carrasq: | The day before Thanksgiving? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. So I think this happened on a Tuesday. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Did she have any ... you mentioned that she had bruises. Where were they at? Did you see them? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. - She had some on the front of her ... on her leg ... - like on her shin on one side. Umm ... up ... up her arm. |
| Det. Sudler: | Do you remember which side? |
| Johnson: | No. |
Page 33
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | No, I ... that was about six months ago. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. On her upper arm? |
| Johnson: | Yeah ... yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Anything else ... did she have any like skin abnormalities or unusual marks on her skin? |
| Johnson: | No; Just ... I mean ... it just looked like ... you know ... she had.. |
| Det. Sudler: | No abrasions or anything like that or ... ? |
| Johnson: | No. It looked like ... it looked like a one or two day old bruise is what I remember seeing. You know how it looks kinda purplish first and then it goes to ... you know ... a brownish color and you kinda tell how long it's been by looking at it ... you know ... yeah ... it looked like a pretty ... pretty recent ... like one ... one or two days ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Did she have anymore of those episodes of ... you - know ... knocking stuff over and kicking furniture and ... that you're aware of? |
| Johnson: | Not that I'm aware of. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Suzanne just told you-about that..you didn't - witness that personally? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Umm ... did ... was Suzanne able to control this girl - by herself or did she need any help from anybody? |
| Johnson: | Well, Suzanne is almost 6' tall ... you know. |
| Det. Sudler: | So she can take care of herself? |
| Johnson: | Yeah.- |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I ... you know ... I ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright ... |
| Johnson: | I ... I think she'd ... she'd probably be able to just.you -know ... corral her and calm her down. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. This took place in the room? |
Page 34
| Johnson: | Lisa responded pretty well to Suzanne ... you know ... Suzanne could ... had a real calming effect on her. |
| Det. Sudler: | Were they friends? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Yeah ... you know. Suzanne could come in and put her arm around Lisa and just ... you know ... you could just see Lisa go "whhh" and relax ... you know. She ... she'd chill out. |
| Det. Sudler: | Aright. Did any other staff members that you're-aware - of have any problems with Lisa like this ... you know ... any food servers or anybody? Did she go off on them? |
| Johnson: | I don't think so. I never ... I never heard. |
| Det. Sudler: | Never heard. Okay. |
| Johnson: | And I ... I'm pretty sure that, if anybody was ... was threatened or ... you know ... felt like they were being attacked ... I would have heard. |
| Det. Sudler: | Heard about it ... okay. |
| Johnson: | Yeah, I would have heard. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. Umm ... so you saw her pretty much every other day throughout that ... her ... throughout her stay? |
| Johnson: | Umm ... yeah ... on the average. |
| Det. Sudler: | On the average ... okay ... toward the end of her - stay ... when ... you know ... obviously her health deteriorated. When did that start to happen and when - - did you notice that she was kinda taking a turn for the worse? |
| Johnson: | It was on Friday ... the Friday after Thanksgiving. I noticed that ... you know ... she was ... she was looking thinner to me. She was wearing like a tank top and ... and shorts. And she looked noticeably thinner to - me. And I said "Whoa" ... you know ... what's ... but she - was a lot calmer at that point. She had started |
Page 35
| sleeping. So I thought "Whoa" ... you know ... maybe as - soon as she gets enough sleep she'll turn the corner and start eating again. But I remember ... I remember saying to Laura "Just ... you know ... put some extra time and attention into making sure that she drinks enough ... you -know ... just really work with her ... offer her this.and get her to.,..to drink enough because she's getting behind on food ... she's not drinking enough." | |
| Det. Sudler: | Laura was with you that time? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | That Friday after Thanksgiving? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. What happened was I had something that I had - to do that weekend. It was ... it was something that was gonna take up my whole weekend. And I didn't want to just ... you know ... turn around and not ... not check on her. And I wasn't gonna be able to check on her. So I told Laura, "You take over this and you make sure that.you know ... that she's getting enough to eat ... that she's getting enough to drink for the weekend".. So Laura did that. |
| Det. Sudler: | Over the weekend? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. You weren't gonna be available? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Was there any indication that she had been drinking or ... you know ... consuming any foods? |
| Johnson: | Oh yeah.-..you know ... what I ... the last time that I went in there, it was ... it was ... that was on ... that - was on a Friday. There were two empty ... you know ... - protein shake glasses. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Sitting there on her dresser. And there ... yeah ... there - was some like bottled water as well. Occasionally |
Page 36
| before, I remember seeing like ... you know..cartons of juice. | |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | And that day all I saw was the two ... yˆu know ... two protein shake things and those really don't have a whole heck of a lot of water in them. |
| Det. Sudler: | Yeah, I know that. Like Slim Fast ... things like that. |
| Johnson: | Yeah ... yeah ... they don't have ... they really don't have enough ... enough fluid. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Umm ... did Laura get back with you and tell you that.. you know ... anything to -the contrary ... that she wasn't ... you know ... following what she was told to drink fluids or ... you know ... to eat ... that she ... you know ... was I guess rebelling and ... you know ... |
| Johnson: | On Monday when I got.. I got back ... you know..kinda in my regular routine and ... and talked to Laura ... she said that it was ... you know ... it was tough to get her.you know.. to encourage her to ... to drink and to do what ... you know ... what she needed to'do. It,was kinda -..you know ... constant reminding ... reminding ... you know ... like you'd do ... do for a little child. |
| Det. Sudler: | Did you see her on that Monday? |
| Johnson: | On Monday, it was ... it was around 8:00 in the evening - before I got over.there. And she was already in bed. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | So I just shut the door and backed back out because - -she was starting to stir and I wasn't about to-wake her up. So,' I ... all I saw was that ... was that she was - under ... up under the covers and she was ... looked like - - -she was at least in a light sleep. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Did she keep the door unlocked in there or did - - you have a key to get in? |
| Johnson: | I do have a key. Usually I would ... I mean ... I would |
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| just knock lightly. Or if.. if nobody answered the door, I wasn't gonna bang on the door hard and wake her up. But I just knocked lightly and if ... if the door wasn't answered, then I'd just ask the security guard to ... to come and turn the lock ... | |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | So that I could peek in ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | And make sure everything was okay. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. Did Laura tell you that her condition had improved or deteriorated that weekend ... you know ... that she wasn't drinking like she was supposed to? Did she get any worse than what she was or ... ? |
| Johnson: | She didn't say that she ... you know ... was..was - getting worse. It sounded like she was kinda just doing the same old ... same old same old. kinda things. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. Okay. Go on and describe after Monday the - next visit. |
| Johnson: | Umm ... the next time ... I didn't ... I didn't go there until about a little after 7:00 in the evening on - Tuesday. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Arid what transpired then? TAPE TWO - SIDE ONE - |
| Det. Sudler: | This will be a continuation of the interview with Janis Johnson on another tape. We're beginning this interview - - at 1040 -hours the same date, 5/29/96. Sorry for the - interruption Janis. Urnm ... we were, talking about Tuesday about 7 p.m ... .Laura apparently went to visit Lisa in her room and then you I guess had received - I guess a phone call from Laura. |
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| Johnson: | A page. |
| Det. Sudler: | A page from Laura? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Take it from there. |
| Johnson: | Okay. She had said that Lisa had developed some fairly severe diarrhea. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | That had been going on for almost 24 hours. And that she was sick and that, despite her not wanting to go to the doctor, we had to do something. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. This was around Tuesday late evening or ... |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. Yeah ... about 7:00 in the evening. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | That she looked like she had some kind of infection. |
| Det. Carrasq: | So the Monday night when you ... you went over there ... - she was in bed? Johnson-: Yeah, she was already asleep. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Severe diarrhea ... 24 hours ... and had developed some type of infection? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. She said she looked like she had some kind of - infection. I said "Well, does she have a fever?" -. She said "She didn't feel hot" ... you know ... "But she - - ... she looks like she's got an infection". She said - - "Come on over here ... I need some help". |
| Det. Sudler: | Laura I understand has a medical background too ... right? |
| Johnson: | Yeah ... yeah. She did go to medical school in Mexico. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So ... |
| Johnson: | So I imagine she knew what she was talking about. |
| Det. Sudler: | She would be able to tell' if someone had a fever. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Yeah ... oh yeah ... definitely. - Anybody could ... you know ... |
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| Det. Sudler: | Yeah ... I mean ... yeah. But she would be I guess qualified to.. to say ... you know ... somebody ... |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | So she had 24 hours of diarrhea and some type - of infection. Did she elaborate on ... on what type of infection she had or anything? |
| Johnson: | No. She just asked me to ... to come over and give her a hand because we were gonna have to do something ... you know. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | So I just ... it took me about ten minutes to break free and get over there. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So you got over there around 7:10 or. |
| Johnson: | 7:10 ... .yeah..7:10 or 7:15 ... yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And who was there when you got there? |
| Johnson: | Laura. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And what was Lisa like? |
| Johnson: | She was actually the friendliest she had ever been to me. She ... she ... she -actually was happy to see' me. She smiled-at me ... you know ... she ... you know ... she said "Hi". You know ... it was like "Whoa ... this is different". Maybe,she realized she did need some help and she was ... you know ... at last willing to accept - - some help. So I ... I checked myself ... you know ... just.she didn't ... she didn't feel warm ... she ... but she did look ... to me she looked septic. She looked like -- she had some kind of ... by septic I mean ... you know ... an infection in the blood ... you know. It's gotten - into the blood system. |
| Det. Carrasq: | What does that look like? |
| Johnson: | Umm ... you- -know ... generally someone looks just not - good. They have a ... a tired look about- them. They don't think straight. You know ... like someone has |
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| the flu ... you know ... just get a picture in your mind of someone who has ... you know ... a fever and is in this 24 hour bug and they look kinda ... you know ... just drug out and ... you know..not good color ... and they ... they -just don't look ... don't look very good. | |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. I take it that Lisa didn't look very-good. |
| Johnson: | No. She definitely looked like she had an infection - rolling. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Umrn ... |
| Johnson: | And very dehydrated at that point. |
| Det. Sudler: | How did that look? |
| Johnson: | Umm ... extra thin. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | You know how some people will take ... take a water - pill to fit into their clothes or to look thin for a certain event. It does definitely ... you know ... when you lose water it makes you much thinner. |
| Det. Sudler: | Is there any way you can tell from that ... I mean ... if you were to -examine somebody or look ... and know that like the skin isn't ... |
| Johnson: | Oh yeah ... yeah ... you know ... .it's ... it's ... you know ... if the skin is loose like a bloodhound, that's one - indication ... you know ... of ... of dehydration. |
| Det. Sudler: | Was Lisa like that or do you remember? |
| Johnson: | I don't recall specifically but ... I mean ... I just - - remember looking at her and saying majorly dehydrated.. - - everything really dry ... you know ... instead of ... you - know ... mucous membranes get real ... get real dry. There's just this kinda ... youknow ... sunken dehydrated - -- look. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. -How was..was her ... her,other appearance or overall appearance ... I mean ... you know ... her hair ... her makeup? Was she ... did she look like she had been |
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| sick? | |
| Johnson: | Didn't look like she had gotten into the shower or done her hair in at least a day. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. What was she wearing? |
| Johnson: | She was wearing that night shirt again. |
| Det. Sudler: | The long night shirt? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Carrasq: | You said she didn't look like she had been in the shower or done her hair. Was she the type that would shower regularly? Every time you'd stop in and see her, she was well groomed? |
| Johnson: | Oh yeah ... uh huh ... yeah. Well, not well groomed but at least ... you know ... maybe not ... you know ... completely ... you know ... hair all ... all done. But mean..it was ... you know ... she ... she was clean ... ..she was ... you know ... she was neat. |
| Det. Sudler: | How ... what was her conversation at the time with you and Laura? |
| Johnson: | Well, the conversation had taken place ... you know ... whatever conversation taking place with Laura about..you know ... "No, I do..do not want to go ... you know to any doctor".. |
| Det. Sudler: | Laura told you this? |
| Johnson: | Yeah, she said ... you know ... "She doesn't ... she doesn't want to go". I said "Well, there comes a point where that's tough ... I'm sorry..you know ... in my opinion ... . I mean ... she really needs to go and get some medical - help and we're gonna have to somehow sell her on it ... I mean ... that's ... that's just the ... that's just the ... the fact of the matter ... and so how can we present this -so that she'll accept it". So what ... what we decided was okay, how about someone who ... you know ... who she knows will..-.will treat her with respect who |
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| is a member of the church who she can trust. And that's how we told her so that she'd come with us. | |
| Det. Sudler: | And who was that? |
| Johnson: | Dr. Minkoff. |
| Det. Sudler: | Dr. Minkoff ... okay. Had she been a patient of his before? |
| Johnson: | I don't think so. He's a ... he's an emergency room physician. But you see, he has ... his specialty - training is in infectious diseases. So it was like it was perfect ... you know ... someone that she would trust that had the training to handle whatever ... whatever infection she had. |
| Det. Carrasq: | She knew him when you mentioned him by name? |
| Johnson: | I don't think so. I ... we didn't really mention him by name ... just that ... you know ... how would you feel about ... you know ... would it be okay with you to go to a doctor ... you know ... that was just in an emergency - - room ... you know..that ... that is a member of the church - and that we know and that we know is ... you know ... is ... is kind and gentle and there'd be no ... you know ... whatever ... I don't know ... whatever bad experience she had before ... you know ... somebody didn't treat her right. |
| Det. Carrasq: | What was her response? |
| Johnson: | She wasn't happy about it but she was okay with it ... - - you know ... she agreed to ... to come with ... we helped her get dressed ... you know.. it was like ... I can tell you that, without getting an agreement from her, it - would've been a kicking screaming battle and ... you know ... and ... you know ... there's no way ... no way I'd do that. - |
| Det. Sudler: | Helped her get dressed ... did ... did she need help - getting dressed or did you just get her clothes for her? |
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| Johnson: | Yeah, I went and got her ... she was wearing this night - shirt ... I didn't want to take her out ... you know ... - wearing night clothes. So I just ... you know ... ran and I got some clean clothes off the shelf. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Det. Carrasq: | You said that she had had diarrhea for 24 hours. Was she at the point that you had to clean her up too? |
| Johnson: | Umm ... no..no ... she ... she ... there was a towel on her bed..you know ... under her. But it was okay ... the towel was clean. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So she hadn't soiled her undergarments or bed ‡r anything like that? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Umm ... she was conscious ... I mean ... in talking to her ... I mean ... she could carry on a conversation? |
| Johnson: | Yeah, she was making ... she was ... you know..I mean.,.. - when someone is septic, they aren't ... you know ... like - real fast ... you know. - They're kinda slow ... they don't - think real straight. But she wasn't like babbling or - ... you know ... not making sense. She was just slow -- - to respond. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Umm ... was she ambulatory ... could she walk on -- her own? |
| Johnson: | Well, we weren't gonna take a chance on her falling. - So I'm ... Laura's on one side ... you know ... with her hand under her arm. And I stood on the other side. And -we ... we walked her ... like I told you, there was - - two -beds there. We ... we walked her over from the bed where she was to the one-that was next to the door ... .you know ... and ... and sat her down on the bed. And - it was like I was not wanting to go all the way across the street where my van was. So I said "Here Laura, I'm gonna go pull up the van". And Paul Greenwood by |
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| that time was coming up the sidewalk. So I said ... you know ... "Hey Paul, give Laura a hand ... I'm gonna go get the van so that we don't have to walk so far". And I came and I pulled it up right to the curb there - outside of ... outside of the door. | |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Was Paul Greenwood paged to come there to ... to help out? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. By ... by you or Laura? |
| Johnson: | I told somebody. Actually it was secondhand ... who did I tell ... I told ... I can't remember who it was - that was ... that was by there. But I said "Hey ... - you know ... we need some help". |
| Det. Sudler: | Do you know if it was security or housekeeping or.you know ... someone like that or ... ? |
| Johnson: | Yeah, it was either security or housekeeping. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | One of them that I asked to go round him up. |
| Det. Sudler: | Him specifically orto just get help? |
| Johnson: | No, I think I asked for him specifically because I knew where he was. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | And he's a big guy. |
| Det. Sudler: | -You ... you ... you know who Paul.is then? -. |
| Johnson: | Oh yeah ... yeah ... he'-s in the same department as I - am. |
| Det. Sudler: | Oh, okay. |
| Johnson: | SoI happened to know where he was at the time and - that ... you know ... he could ... he could get away and he-was close by. So he was the logical person to - grab. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And then he was still on the sidewalk. You -.what did Lisa ... what did Lisa wear ... what did you |
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| put on her? Do you remember? | |
| Johnson: | I think it was jeans and a different tee shirt. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And you and Laura moved her from the one bed - I guess closest to the bathroom? |
| Johnson: | Yes. |
| Det. Sudler: | To the one by the door? |
| Johnson: | The one next to the door. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And she was all dressed at this point? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And when you opened the door, I guess Paul was coming up the sidewalk. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And then ... |
| Johnson: | And then I ran out to get the van. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Okay. Then what happened? |
| Johnson: | I pulled up the van ... opened the door ... and Paul and Laura were..were carrying Lisa. There were - some steps to go down. -. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Paul got in first and then Lisa was between Laura and Paul.- And they were in the back seat. My..the way my-van is set up, the ... there..there's like two, - bucket seats. And then the second seat is only for, two people. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | So they got in the very back. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Where there were three seats. |
| Det. Sudler: | What type of van do you have? |
| Johnson: | It's a Mazda mini van. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. There's the two front and then two in the - middle. And then there's a bench seat in the back? |
| Johnson: | Yeah, like a big bench seat that has ... has three |
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| seats and a little bit more room. | |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So that was ... was Paul, Lisa, and then Laura in that order? |
| Johnson: | Yeah ... Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. And you're driving up? |
| Johnson: | Right. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Umm ... was Lisa offering any resistance at this point? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | She was willing and ready to go to,the doctor? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Umm..and she was I guess okay with the decision to go with ... to Dr. Minkoff ... she felt comfortable with. him? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | Umm ... okay. What happened at that point.? |
| Johnson: | Well, I started ... I had a little hand drawn map how - to get there. I had never been to this place before. So I- ... I was just following the map and' driving. |
| Det. Sudler: | Who drew that map? Do you remember? |
| Johnson: | Somebody in the office. Umm ... I think it was Emma. |
| Det. Sudler: | In your office? |
| Johnson: | Yeah, I think it was ... I think Emma drew that. |
| Det. Carrasq: | At what point did you have it draw it? Did-you go there that evening? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh ... yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | So you had already formulated in your mind that ... that Lisa needed to go to a doctor and you were gonna go - there ... go there to sell her on the idea. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. But before- I did that, I ran ... you know ... I ... I ... I didn't ... we didn't ... Laura and I didn't - stand there and talk in front of her ... you know. We went outside and said okay, how are we gonna do |
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| this. And I went to ... went to a phone and from there I called to make,sure that Dr. Minkoff was on duty that night. I made a few phone calls to set all this up. | |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. Did you talk to Dr. Minkoff? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Yeah, he was in the Emergency Room there and I ... I told him'what was going on and that ... you know ... she needed to be seen tonight ... that there was just ... you know ... no way that she was going to wait till tomorrow. |
| Det. Sudler: | That was before your visit to Lisa? |
| Johnson: | No, that was -after. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay, after ... |
| Johnson: | Yeah, I went and I saw her ... I said "Yeah Laura.. - you know ... we've got to do something here ... I'm gonna go get this all set up". And so I -went and I made the - arrangements ... made the phone calls. And I also said good God ... after I talked to ... after-I talked to him - ... I hung up and said I don't know where this place is. So I got on the phone and I asked Emma to draw it out for me because she'd been there before. So I said ... "Draw ... draw me a map". And then ... how did I get that.but she ... she ran it over. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | She ... she gave it to me. |
| Det. Sudler: | Umm ... during your conversation with Dr. Minkoff, what - did ... what did he say when you ... I mean ... I guess you described the condition of Lisa ... |
| Johnson: | Yeah, I said ... you know ... "She's.-..she's septic ... she -- she does not want anything to do with doctors". - And - - I just explained to him that..-.you know ... "Just ... I - want you to ... you know ... just maybe let us have a |
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| back room ... you know ... where she can be ... you know ... away from all -the hoo ha of the Emergency Room and - just a nice quiet place where ... you know ... she won't get upset. The last thing she needs right now is ... you know ... to ... to get upset about being in a hospital setting". So he goes "That's okay, I'll take care of it". | |
| Det. Sudler: | Was there any discussion of meningitis at that point? |
| Johnson: | No ... no ... she didn't look that sick. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Where did that come into ... into play ... that meningitis was possible suspect? |
| Johnson: | Well, I was trying to find some explanation for how she could have gone downhill so fast ... I mean ... I was like shocked ... I was just "What?" ... you know ... how ... how could this have happened. So ... I mean ... she looked sick but not terribly sick at 7:00 in the evening. And by 10:00 at night she's dead. |
| Det. Sudler: | Yeah. |
| Johnson: | - I thought my God, what infections do I know of that I can add so I can put this together and make sense -,of this. I thought God ... could she have.. -.could she - have like meningococcal meningitis going on. That's something that moves that fast and it's that vicious. - And then I happened to- know that it was running around the county ... that there were a few cases of it in the -county. And I thought' oh no ... this is ... is this what we're -looking at here. |
| Det. Sudler: | Yeah. From what I understand, it does move pretty - - fast. |
| Johnson: | Oh yeah. It can ... it can kill in hours. So that's - - ... that's how I got that idea. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I've since been told by Mr. Johnson that she actually |
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| had a pulmonary embolism, which would also account for.you know ... sudden death. | |
| Det. Sudler: | Yeah. She..I guess she did ... you know ... was pretty septic and did have a ... I guess a pretty severe staph infection too ... you know. |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | So ... okay ... so ... during your conversation with Dr. Minkoff, you basically said that she was septic and did you discuss her symptoms and her past like history that couple weeks ... what she had been doing or anything? Or trying to get a little bit of an idea what ... what she was like? |
| Johnson: | I didn't ... I don't recall that I gave him anymore than - - ... you know ... immediate ... the immediate stuff that he needed to know. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I ... you know ... I said -that ... you know ... she's ... she's got a thing about the medical profession and - - she needs a nice quiet place. We need to protect her from the hoo ha of the Emergency Room. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I think that's-all I.told him about it. I didn't - - go into a ... a long-winded history. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So you h·d ... just had the one phone call'to Dr. Minkoff then? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | And he said bring her up? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. He said' "I'm on duty ... get -her here". |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And then what happened? From that point you got the map and ... |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | And I guess you're off on your way. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
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| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Umm ... about what time did you leave? |
| Johnson: | I think.it was around 8:00. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Which way did you go? |
| Johnson: | I headed north. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | It was up ... I think it was 19. |
| Det. Sudler: | North 19 out by the overpass on the east side of - town? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And you went straight up 19? |
| Johnson: | I can't remember now if it was ... if it was Alt. 19 or if it was 19. Which one would you take to get -to New Port Richey? |
| Det. Sudler: | Either. |
| Johnson: | Alright. |
| Det. Sudler: | You'd kinda go to the same spot. |
| Johnson: | Okay. |
| Det. Sudler: | They both meet up there in that area. |
| Johnson: | I'm not sure which one I ... which one it was. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I know I was going north. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. Umm ... how was Lisa during the transport - up there? |
| Johnson: | Well, she was there in ... in the back between Laura and Paul. And I couldn't ... couldn't see very much - in just the rearview mirror. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Was she talking or ... ? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. Was she still conscious? |
| Johnson: | I'm not sure. : |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | And I'm not sure at what ... at what point ... you know ... she..there was one time ... I mean ... in |
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| retrospect ... you know ... now that I know what was happening with the pulmonary embolism ... there was one time about twenty minutes before we got to the - - hospital that I heard her breathing pick up. And it was deeper and it was faster than usual. And - then it settled right back down to where it was. If I had to guess, that's the ... that's the time that - the ... that's one of the symptoms of a pulmonary embolism. | |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | One has ... has trouble breathing and it ... they ... - they automatically will ... will breathe ... you know ... a lot faster. So if I had to guess, that was ... that was when it happened ... that that broke off and blew - - up into her lung. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. That's one of the symptoms of it ... that ... the heavy breathing I guess? -. |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | Her ... her breathing before that had been shallow or..? |
| Johnson: | Just ... just regular. |
| Det. Sudler: | Regular? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. And would you characterIze that as gasps for air or just regular ... ? |
| Johnson: | I..I can show you ... no, it was ... it was more like HHHHHH.. -..HHHHHH ... HHHHHH ... .EHHHH ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And she did that? - Johnson:- Yeah, for about fifteen;or twenty seconds and - then settled back down to ... you know ... what ... - - but I didn't hear anything different at that point from where I was. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
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| Johnson: | But this is hindsight ... something ... God, when did that happen.. |
| Det. Sudler: | Was there any ... was there any point that ... during this that you ... you recognized that she had lost consciousness or did Laura or Paul tell you that she was having a problem ... you know ... that they couldn't tell if she was breathing? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Carrasq: | Were they-saying anything? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Did they have any conversation with you at all? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And Lisa didn't say anything? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So there was no conversation whatsoever on the way to the hospital? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. - -. |
| Johnson: | And we don't talk around people who'are sick or - injured. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay.' Is that a..a practice of the church? |
| Johnson: | No. It's ... it's something that's just a good idea. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Based on-research. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. |
| Johnson: | So it's ... it's practiced in many operating rooms today. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. I'm curious why. |
| Johnson: | Because it ... it ... what happens is like say you have someone who's asleep under an anesthetic.'.. they ... the drugs do certain things ... you know ... with drugs ... the drugs will do to the mind to depress the consciousness ... |
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| Det. Sudler: | Uh Huh. Johnson:. And things will act as a ... a hypnotic suggestion. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | So that was just something that in many operating - rooms just isn't done ... you know. You don't chatter and talk and talk about your golf game yesterday and that kind of stuff. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So it's not like Chicago Hope then or MASH? |
| Johnson: | Uh Uh ... well ... you know ... not quite like - MASH. |
| Det. Sudler: | Not quite like MASH ... okay ... alright. So how long would you say the ... the trip took before you arrived? |
| Johnson: | It seems like it was about an hour. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I thought it was about 40 ... a 40 minute drive. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | But the way the lights were timed at that time of day, it took about an hour. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And what happened upon arrival at the hospital? |
| Johnson: | --.. Well, I pulled up to the ... you know ... the..like the door of the Emergency Room. And I got out and went - in and I'd already talked to them. So they were.were expecting us. And I ... you know ... said ... - you know ... "We.." ... you know ... "We need a stretcher". - And ... you know ... they said "Yeah ... yeah."..you know;.. "We'll be there in a little bit" ... you know. So I went back out ... opened the door..and said "Okay ... okay - guys". And Paul ... you know ... Paul was..was shaking - his head and saying ... you know ... "What?" And he-goes ... - he goes "It doesn't look good". I said "Well, we better - - move fast". I ran back in and said "I need ... I need that stretcher now". - And they didn't have one. So I - ... I just kept after them until they did something. And they had a wheelchair, so they brought the |
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| wheelchair out. They ... they just said "I'm sorry ... we don't ... we just don't have an extra stretcher right now. I said "Well" ... you know ... "Hey, look ... this is serious". They ... they weren't quite grasping that this was a serious situation at that point. So - - they came out with the wheelchair. We put her in the wheelchair. To me, at that point it did not look like.you know ... she was ... she was not breathing ... I cOuld - not see any ... any motion ... you know ... any motion that she was breathing. | |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. How was her skin color? |
| Johnson: | Well ... you know ... it was this funny fluorescent kind of light. We all looked funny. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. But you couldn't tell if she had any breathing - at that point? |
| Johnson: | No. She didn't look ... I mean ... like blue. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. |
| Johnson: | But she didn't ... there was no obvious motion either. |
| Det. Sudler: | So she didn't have a gray cast or ... you know ... |
| Johnson: | No ... no. |
| Det. Sudler: | And at that point she was just taken right into the - ER? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. When ... I guess ... did Dr. Minkoff tell you in person that she had died or how did you find out about -that? |
| Johnson: | Well, -the ... the ER nurse was asking us for information and ... you know ... I was ... I did not have a whole lot of information. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I hadn't even thought to ... to ... to pick up..to pick up her'purse ... to find her purse there in the room. - - So I didn't have her address or ... you know ... her |
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| birthdate or anything like that. So I gave them whatever information I had and that was the correct - ... you know ... correct spelling of her name. And.I mean ... I ... I've been around enough to know that you know ... I could get from what the nurse was - saying ... the nurse wasn't saying anything directly ... | |
| Det. Sudler: | Uh Huh. |
| Johnson: | But I could get ... you know ... from what she was saying that things were not going well. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | And when they kept asking "Well, who's her next-of-kin?" ... I mean ... I'm not stupid. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Okay. When did they formally ... did they ever formally tell you that she died that night or ... ? |
| Johnson: | Well, yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Who was that? Was it a nurse or a doctor told you? |
| Johnson: | No, it was a nurse. - |
| Det. Sudler: | ER nurse? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. - -. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Did they say what the cause of death was they believed to be or anything? |
| Johnson: | No. They ... they just asked ... you know ... "Is she -- allergic to anything ... does she have any prÈviÙus medical history?" And I'm ... I'm saying ... you know - ... "I don't know of any medical- illness that she ... that she's had in the past". |
| Det. Sudler: | Was there ... did she still have the bruises on her? |
| Johnson: | She had ... as of that night on..on ... on Tuesday as - I was-helping-dress her ... she had real ... real - strange looking bruises. It's a different kind of bruise ... it's ... was sepsis. What will happen is that'the little blood vessels will develop - inflammation and they'll burst. |
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| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | So it's a strange looking bruise. It doesn't look just like ... you know ... bumped on something. It's a characteristic strange looking kind of bruise and that's one..that's one of the things that tipped me off that this was sepsis. It's hard to ... it's hard - to explain. It looks like a bruise because what happens is the little blood' vessels ... they burst ... they get inflamed and they ... they burst. And so - you do get areas of bruising ... you know. Any ... the ... the blood vessels get really really fragile. |
| Det. Sudler: | Like a petechial hemorrhage? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Something like that. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | It has that look? |
| Johnson: | It does like early on but then ... you know ... as ... - -as ... a bruise is just blood ... you know ... being loose under the skin. |
| Det. Sudler: | Uh Huh. |
| Johnson: | And after a certain point ... you know ... you-can't see the little tiny petechia anymore and it just looks like ... you know ... an area bruise. You can't - ... you can't see the ... the difference. |
| Det. Carrasq: | Where were those at? |
| Johnson: | Like over ... you know ... over her knuckles ... on ... over her elbows ... upon ... upon at least one hip I - - saw ... I saw a bruise. Any place where ... like if she was ... if she was lying in bed with pressure on this point ... you know ... the blood ... the blood vessels will be so fragile that everywhere that she puts pressure that they would burst if she'd get ... you know ... get areas of bruising. Yeah ... |
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| all this would fit with meningitis ... meningitis - and.. and the staph are the two that are most ... most common that would be most likely to do that and give that kind of little blood vessels bursting everywhere. And I've seen people with meningitis that they were like purple from one end to another ... like just one solid bruise everywhere. TAP'E TWO - SIDE TWO | |
| Det. Sudler: | Did ... do you know if Lisa had any local physicians that she dealt with? Did you ever hear that from anybody you talked to? |
| Johnson: | The only one I knew of was Jeannie Decuypere. |
| Det. Sudler: | And she's a chiropractor? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | But no M.D.'s or anybody that she -saw previously ... no OB/GYN's or anything like that?. - -. |
| Johnson: | Not that I remembered. I think she stayed as far away from doctors as she possibly could. |
| Det. Carrasq: | Did you ever why that was? |
| Johnson: | I.. I'm guessing that she had some kind of bad experience but I don't know what it was'. |
| Det. Sudler: | I think when I talked to Paul Greenwood, he had mentioned or' ... or Benetta Slaughter or somebody ... - one of her friends ... one of the people said that - - ... that the church I guess doesn't believe in using - psychologists -,or psychiatrists or anything like that - - ... that that's not what the church kinda believes in? Is -that pretty much the case? |
| Johnson: | Well, it's not that we're ... you know..we're against - any particular ... you know ... any particular approach or ... or profession. |
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| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | It's just that we don't feel we really have any use for psychiatry or psychology. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So..so the religion itself would ... would I guess be what a psychia ... a psychiatrist could do ... you can get that through the religion then. |
| Johnson: | Exactly. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay ... alright. So there wouldn't be any reason to go then? |
| Johnson: | I'm ... I'm ... not that I can think of. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Alright. Umm ... cause it looks ... it looks - like..you know ... Lisa ... you know.. she had this accident. And were you told about what happened after the accident? |
| Johnson: | Well, I know that she did have both a physical. and a psychiatric examination. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Yeah.. |
| Det. Sudler: | Did you know why? Were you told of the circumstances - why she was taken to Morton Plant Hospital? |
| Johnson: | I ... I've heard secondhand that she ... that she - did something wild ... took her clothes off and - walked down the street. That- ... that's the part that I heard that she ... Det'. Sudler: Pretty wild ... a little bit different. |
| Johnson: | Yeah ... yeah ... something was ... something was not right there. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. When ... if ... I guess ... since she"s not on staff, she would be-what you'd consider a parishioner right? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | If somebody had one of those breaks, what wouldbe the church's function ... I mean ... if ... would they |
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| go ... I guess ... you know ... not being well versed with the church ... but would they go to the church for counseling or for ... would there' be somebody that they would go to ... a minister or somebody if they were in that situation? | |
| Johnson: | The church doesn't treat mental illness at all ... I mean ... she did the ... she did the usual thing. If you think somebody's mentally ill, then they go and they get evaluated. You see ... the -point of.of Scientology isn't to treat physical or mental illness. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | It's ... it's ... it's strictly for spiritual gain. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So it's not like a..a Christian Scientist thing? |
| Johnson: | Oh no ... . |
| Det. Sudler: | Where they just don't believe in..in medical ... |
| Johnson: | Oh no..no ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Practitioners or ... you -know ... Johnson:. In fact our policy and our guideline is that ... the guidelines ... if you are sick, you get treated ... you get ... you get physically taken care of ... you know. Then ... you know ... then you ... you ... you don't - try to ... you don't try to ... it's not like..it's not - like Christian Science where you avoid all medical treatments..that's ... or ... you know..you're supposed - -to depend on faith to heal you or something. That's.that's not what's going on. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Did ... in some of the interviews that we've talked to,- we got information that ... that the ‡hurch - would do ... in ... in persons with a break like this or a breakdown or a nervous breakdown ... that they - - would -do something, like an introspection rundown |
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| a course or something that they would take. Is that familiar to you? | |
| Johnson: | No. I ... I don't know of any such course. |
| Det. Sudler: | Anything like that. Okay. And that came from somebody I talked to. But was Lisa in ... involved in anything like that? Was she ... did she go to the church for any courses or any programs to help her? |
| Johnson: | No. She ... she was simply there to rest. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | She was not doing anything as far as a course or ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | She was not in any course. She was just there to rest. |
| Det. Sudler: | So there wouldn't be any like diet or exercise regiment or counseling or anything that ... that she would do because of her mental condition to try to. improve that? |
| Johnson: | Oh ... oh no..no |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | That's not ... that's not the purpose or why she was.was there. She simply wanted to have a chance to get away from whatever pressures that, she was under and chill out and just ... just relax and rest. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. |
| Johnson: | -- I know that's ... that's not ... that's not the purpose - of Scientology ... you know ... to ... to treat any, kind of mental or physical illness. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Would there be anybody that would be assigned to watch her ... to make sure that she didn't ... you - know ... injure herself or..you know.. completely I guess completely I guess go across the brink of ... of sanity? |
| Johnson: | We were depending on ... you know ... the fact that |
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| she had had an evaluation. | |
| Det. Sudler: | Uh Huh. |
| Johnson: | And whoever had evaluated her had said "Okay, yeah.she's ... she's okay to go ... she's not any danger to herself or to anyone else ... and- she's ... she's fine to be released". So ... I mean..that's ... that's.that's what I knew was that yeah, she had been evaluated and she was okay. It was just a temporary upsetness ... something that I guess everyone involved believed could be cured with some rest and relaxation. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. It appears that, at the hospital ... you know ... that they had a discussion about psychiatric evaluations and ... and that they would take care of pretty much ... you know ... whatever Lisa needed ... that they would rather not her..you know ... be evaluated or.. or have a psychiatrist actually treat her or.you know. I guess they had a nurse practitioner just make the general ... you know ... the legal determination as to whether'or not she was a Baker Act candidate and ask her some questions. But I was wondering if there was any -structured thing that she was gonna be a part of ... you know ... because like ... you know ... we have a 72 hour Baker Act law in this state that ... you know ... an - - involuntary ... |
| Johnson: | I'm not sure what-that is. - -. |
| Det. Sudler: | Well, an involuntary admission into a health care facility for 72 hours is the maximum amount of time by law that a person can stay there against their will ... you know ... until a Judge- or physician can make a determination if they're okay to leave. It would take a' court order to keep them longer than 72 hours. So Lisa didn't meet that legal criteria |
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| according to I guess her interaction with the emergency staff ... she wasn't ... you know ... suicidal ... .you know ... or likely to do injury to others. But I didn't know if ... if because she ... you know ... obviously she was having some type of crisis at that point ... whether she would have any structured program or anything like that with the church that she would be a part of in order to try and help her through this difficult time. There's nothing like - that? | |
| Johnson: | Well, she simply wanted to be there to ... to just - rest and relax. She had not originated that she wanted to do anything more. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Than just have a place to just be away from the. pressures of life. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. So she didn't go there to take a course or she wasn't part of any program or anything like - that to try to help her out of this situation - she was in? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Just she needed a break from everything. |
| Johnson: | Yeah. That was the ... that was the whole reason she was there. She wasn't doing anything else but just relaxing. |
| Det. Carrasq: | And that would've, been something she would've been initiating? |
| Johnson: | Oh yeah ... yeah ... yeah. She would've ... she would've - said "Well yeah ... I want to do something" before -she ... I mean ... people don't start on a course or - -- something if it's not their idea to do it. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. At anytime did..did Lisa ever mention to you - or anybody about any suicidal tendencies that she |
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| may have or anything? | |
| Johnson: | No, I hadn't heard anything. |
| Det. Sudler: | She didn't display any self-destructive behavior or anything? |
| Johnson: | No, except for that one episode when she was angry.. angry about something and she pounded on something. But ... no..that ... |
| Det. Sudler: | That was not the answer. |
| Johnson: | Yeah ... I mean ... not for the purpose of ... you know ... injuring herself. She was just ... she was blowing off steam. |
| Det. Sudler: | She didn't ... okay..she didn't make statements ... suicidal statements to you or anybody that you're aware of that she didn't want to live anymore or ... ? |
| Johnson: | I never heard any such thing. |
| Det. Sudler: | Was she trying to starve herself to death? |
| Johnson: | I ... I'm ... I can't really ... I mean ... I can't really -.. say that I knew enough about what was going on in her mind and actually what she was doing to say that - that is or isn',t the case. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | If I knew a little more, maybe I could give you a guess. But I don't feel like I really know enough to even say. |
| Det. Sudler: | Yeah. That's why we're trying to fill in that period of time ... . |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | You know ... Lisa had a family history that I can't get into.-.. |
| Johnson: | Okay.. |
| Det. Sudler: | But we..we need tO have ... you know ... we want to fill in that gap from the time that she had that accident to the time of her death about ... you know ... |
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| her mental and physical well-being ... you know ... her condition. Is there anybody that you know that would have more firsthand knowledge of ... of Lisa and how she was there ... I mean ... you were pretty much ... you know ... you and Laura were there ... | |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | Watching her. And Suzanne. Other than ... other than you and Suzanne and Laura, would there be anybody else that would know? |
| Johnson: | Well, I don't think so. I think probably I'm ... I could say that -Suzanne ... you know ... definitely - knows more than I do about Lisa ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | Just because she was a personal friend. Let's see if I can remember any other thing that ... you know ... Suzanne might have told me. She didn't specifically - say ... you know ... that Lisa ... you know ... was starving - herself or trying to harm herself. But I know that it was a long term problem off and on. It wasn't - always but it would pop up off and on. That much she had said to Suzanne. But as far as ... you know ... if this was the intention of what she was doing ... you know..that I never got any ... .I,never heard anybody say that directly. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. But that didn't present- itself to you that that's what she was trying to do? |
| Johnson: | It crossed my mind that she ... you know ... was ... .that she was not as ... well, that we ... that at times it took a lot of encouragement to get her to do those kind of basic things ... you know ... to just get her' to - ... to eat enough ... drink enoUgh. But then ... you know - - ... somebody who is really upset ... yeah, they'll ... - they'll neglect themselves that way. So I can't ... |
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| yeah ... I can't really say that it seemed to be willful and seemed to be.something that was ... you know ... planned or..or pre-meditated. | |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | I'm not saying it couldn't ... it wasn't ... but ... you know ... I can't ... I just can't say that I definitely saw that. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Is Suzanne still in ... in that position as medical office director or ... ? |
| Johnson: | No ... no ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Where is she at now? |
| Johnson: | I believe she's in Switzerland. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
| Johnson: | That's where she's from. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. Alright.- And Laura's in Mexico. |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Sudler: | You want to travel Bob? You'd have a pretty good vacation there. |
| Johnson: | I'd rather go to Switzerland.. |
| Det. Sudler: | Yeah. - Would there be anybody else over at the - church or any other staff member that would have more information about this? |
| Johnson: | Better ... like her personal life before him? |
| Det. Sudler: | Yeah or during that ... who actually dealt with her or had any contact with her during that two week period of time. |
| Johnson: | I think probably Suzanne and I knew as much or more - than anybody else would in..about those ... those couple of weeks. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Is Suzanne on vacation or is she working. over there now ... is she back home ... is that ... ? |
| Johnson: | No, she's not on staff anymore ... she's ... |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. |
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| Johnson: | She's doing other things. |
| Det. Sudler: | Alright. |
| Det. Carrasq: | When you say on staff, does that mean like you're employed by the church? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Carrasq: | That is your job or ... ? |
| Johnson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Carrasq: | So she just quit the church? |
| Johnson: | Uh Huh. Well, she ... she wanted to do other things. And ... you know..no ... nobody's pushed to' stay if they don't want to stay. |
| Det. Sudler: | During ... |
| Det. Carrasq: | Is she still a member of the church though? |
| Johnson: | Oh yeah. |
| Det. Sudler: | During the transport up to the hospital in New - Port Richey, was there ever a time that you thought about getting immediate medical help for ... for Lisa ... you know ... and..I mean ... you were driving and you just looked in the rearview mirror ... but ... you know ... when she had that-breathing problem, did it ever occur to you or did you ever think about calling 911 or getting a ... you know ... an advance life support unit -. there or anything like that? |
| Johnson: | Well, not really. I mean ... like I said ... that was.. you know ... kinda one of these hindsights in retrospect.you know. I didn't think anything of it at the time. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. And Paul an'd ... you know ... Laura didn't update you as to her condition or anything like that during' the drive? |
| Johnson: | No. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Det. Carrasquillo ... any questions? |
| Det. Carrasq: | Nothing I can think of right now. |
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| Det. Sudler: | Mr. Johnson? |
| Johnson: | No ... nothing. |
| Det. Sudler: | Okay. Thank you very much Janis. I'm gonna go - ahead and conclude the interview. The time is now 11:27 a.m. |
REPORTING: Det. Ron Sudler/elg ID NO: 608 DATE: 5/29/96 E STATUS: Active EXCEPTION TYPE: _______ DATE CLEARED:____________ ARANCE TYPE ______ 1. Extradition Declined Arrest 2. AR of Prim. Offense, Secondary Offense. w/o Pros Adult ____Juv _____ 3. Death of Offender 5. Prosecution Deci Exceptional 4. V/w Refused to Cooperate 6. Juv./No Custody Unfounded REVIEWING:___________________ DATE:__________ SA INFO: ___________